Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
EU FTLs
Thank you for writing to Mr (withheld) about this issue on which we have received many emails, so many in fact that we must apologise for the delay
in replying. (Withheld) is deeply concerned about the dangers which this latest EU-decree poses for air-travellers and for those who convey them.
The EASA is an arm of the unelected EU Commission, which creates rules and is completely unaccountable to anyone who is elected - MEPs have no power to repeal or initiate EU law (processes which are tightly controlled by the unelected Commission). EU harmonisation of safety standards will start a dangerous race to the bottom in the UK and (withheld) will certainly vote against this. With such little democratic oversight, it does not surprise us that these EU agencies use whatever evidence they like, in whatever way they choose - and ignore the expressed view of the Transport Committee of elected MEPs.
Until we free ourselves from the EU, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels (and such EU agencies as the EASA) will continue to bring forward such rules with little to no accountability.
The office of (withheld) MEP Brussels.
in replying. (Withheld) is deeply concerned about the dangers which this latest EU-decree poses for air-travellers and for those who convey them.
The EASA is an arm of the unelected EU Commission, which creates rules and is completely unaccountable to anyone who is elected - MEPs have no power to repeal or initiate EU law (processes which are tightly controlled by the unelected Commission). EU harmonisation of safety standards will start a dangerous race to the bottom in the UK and (withheld) will certainly vote against this. With such little democratic oversight, it does not surprise us that these EU agencies use whatever evidence they like, in whatever way they choose - and ignore the expressed view of the Transport Committee of elected MEPs.
Until we free ourselves from the EU, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels (and such EU agencies as the EASA) will continue to bring forward such rules with little to no accountability.
The office of (withheld) MEP Brussels.
Last edited by John Boeman; 9th Oct 2013 at 12:27.
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The EC is well aware of the parliament timetable and the timing of when it went to the committee and therefore the probability of a subsequent vote. These dates are not accidental. Conspiracy is a loaded word - more like trying to get legislation approved rapidly by whatever means possible; all legislation is mishandled in this way to avoid having MEPs interfere with the running of the EU by the EC.
You have to have worked with these bureaucrats to realize how much power they have and how little accountability. See how the MEPs are just an expenses farming talking shop with no power.
Last edited by Ian W; 9th Oct 2013 at 12:57. Reason: grammar
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My MEP where I previously lived was Nigel Farage.
I wrote to him on this issue (via the BALPA template with my own bit added) and lets just say his response was rather robust.
At the time I thought he came across as rather dis-interested and not particularly receptive to my email. He basically said regardless of how much (and regardless of how many) we lobby through our MEP's the Euro parliament will push through what they want regardless.
I found this rather harsh. His closing line (predicatably) was along the lines of "if you want real change, we need to exit the EU at a legislative level" He then suggested I vote UKIP to see to this.
In the light of todays news....fair point Nigel. :-(
I wrote to him on this issue (via the BALPA template with my own bit added) and lets just say his response was rather robust.
At the time I thought he came across as rather dis-interested and not particularly receptive to my email. He basically said regardless of how much (and regardless of how many) we lobby through our MEP's the Euro parliament will push through what they want regardless.
I found this rather harsh. His closing line (predicatably) was along the lines of "if you want real change, we need to exit the EU at a legislative level" He then suggested I vote UKIP to see to this.
In the light of todays news....fair point Nigel. :-(
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By way of background, Labour MEPs have long campaigned for higher flight and duty time limitations for pilots and cabin crew. Indeed, as the lead person for Labour on transport issues, I have met on numerous occasions with both pilot and cabin crew unions, including BALPA, to work with them to improve the rules on flight and duty time requirements.
The choice Labour MEPs faced in the vote this week was either to accept the changes on the table, or to reject them in their entirety.
We decided to support the proposed new rules, as we believe that they improve safety across the board, strengthening rest requirements and reducing night time flights. This position is also shared by the cabin crew section of the European Transport Workers Federation, which includes UK unions. After receiving certain assurances from the European Commission, they have now given their full backing to the proposals.
While we understand that BALPA would have liked to have seen further changes included, Labour MEPs could not accept throwing out the whole proposal in favour of a return to the present status quo. It is our belief that progress has been made with the Commission, which enables us to accept their proposal.
It is simply not true that the changes will lead to worse conditions for pilots and cabin crew. Fatigue management regulations are necessarily complex. It is not so simple as to isolate one rule from another. Instead it is about how the different pieces of the puzzle fit in together to offer overall crew protection against fatigue. That is the reason why the UK CAA supports the changes and believes that they are fully in line with the high standards of aviation safety we have here in the UK .
On long haul flights of more than 13 hours Flight Duty Period, the UK will now be required to ensure a minimum of four pilots on board. The present UK rules only allow for three. This is just one of the clear safety improvements.
Labour MEPs are also aware that there has been a lot of concern over the night flight limit. The new rules would set a limit of 11 hours. While that might not be the 10 hours some of the unions were campaigning for, it is better than the current 11h15 limit we have in the UK and certainly much better than anything that exists in the rest of Europe.
There are also claims being made that pilots could be forced to land a plane after being awake for 22 hours. Using the same, in my view, flawed arguments, it is also possible to claim that this is true under the current rules today. The misleading claims rely on theoretical awake time before a duty period begins, rather than the duty period itself, leading to a distorted picture of the reality.
Finally let me be absolutely clear. The new rules are about setting minimum aviation safety rules that the whole of Europe can work to. They are about ensuring an appropriate level of alertness to ensure the safe operation of an aircraft. To protect the health and safety at work of pilots and cabin crews, there is separate EU and national social legislation and, where they also exist, collective agreements between airlines and crew. The changes here do not jeopardise more protective collective agreements for the simple reason that the most protective rule always applies. What they clearly do provide, though, is added protection to aircrew, where no such collective agreements between themselves and the airlines they work for exist.
I hope that this helps explain why Labour MEPs voted to support the adoption of the new rules.
Best wishes,
The choice Labour MEPs faced in the vote this week was either to accept the changes on the table, or to reject them in their entirety.
We decided to support the proposed new rules, as we believe that they improve safety across the board, strengthening rest requirements and reducing night time flights. This position is also shared by the cabin crew section of the European Transport Workers Federation, which includes UK unions. After receiving certain assurances from the European Commission, they have now given their full backing to the proposals.
While we understand that BALPA would have liked to have seen further changes included, Labour MEPs could not accept throwing out the whole proposal in favour of a return to the present status quo. It is our belief that progress has been made with the Commission, which enables us to accept their proposal.
It is simply not true that the changes will lead to worse conditions for pilots and cabin crew. Fatigue management regulations are necessarily complex. It is not so simple as to isolate one rule from another. Instead it is about how the different pieces of the puzzle fit in together to offer overall crew protection against fatigue. That is the reason why the UK CAA supports the changes and believes that they are fully in line with the high standards of aviation safety we have here in the UK .
On long haul flights of more than 13 hours Flight Duty Period, the UK will now be required to ensure a minimum of four pilots on board. The present UK rules only allow for three. This is just one of the clear safety improvements.
Labour MEPs are also aware that there has been a lot of concern over the night flight limit. The new rules would set a limit of 11 hours. While that might not be the 10 hours some of the unions were campaigning for, it is better than the current 11h15 limit we have in the UK and certainly much better than anything that exists in the rest of Europe.
There are also claims being made that pilots could be forced to land a plane after being awake for 22 hours. Using the same, in my view, flawed arguments, it is also possible to claim that this is true under the current rules today. The misleading claims rely on theoretical awake time before a duty period begins, rather than the duty period itself, leading to a distorted picture of the reality.
Finally let me be absolutely clear. The new rules are about setting minimum aviation safety rules that the whole of Europe can work to. They are about ensuring an appropriate level of alertness to ensure the safe operation of an aircraft. To protect the health and safety at work of pilots and cabin crews, there is separate EU and national social legislation and, where they also exist, collective agreements between airlines and crew. The changes here do not jeopardise more protective collective agreements for the simple reason that the most protective rule always applies. What they clearly do provide, though, is added protection to aircrew, where no such collective agreements between themselves and the airlines they work for exist.
I hope that this helps explain why Labour MEPs voted to support the adoption of the new rules.
Best wishes,
to and from Brussels then.Once again those unaccountable pen pushers delve into industries they know nothing about, listen to some non-scientifically based 'research' and conclude that one or two small airlines that have NO FTL limits in place will benefit from over all dictatorial governance whilst all the scientifically based rest and ftl rules go in the bin.
It's yet another fine example of dumbing down the system to fit the lowest common denominator.
UKIP are looking good again, the EU independence vote is looking even better.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 9th Oct 2013 at 14:56.
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Finals 19, by chance I saw a copy of Nigel Farage's autobiography* in a half-price sale and I bought it out of curiosity. A good read, BTW.
In Chapter 7 (at page 110) Nigel describes how even if the full EU Parliament had voted against this type of proposal,
"..it will be subjected to a process known as 'conciliation' whereby the vote will simply be overturned and the original reinstated."
I used to be a Europhile, but my perception of the way the EU really works has been altered irrevocably. So, either the ConDems provide us with a true exit referendum before May 2015, or UKIP gets my vote next time.
[*Ironically in the light of this thread the title is "FLYING FREE"]
In Chapter 7 (at page 110) Nigel describes how even if the full EU Parliament had voted against this type of proposal,
"..it will be subjected to a process known as 'conciliation' whereby the vote will simply be overturned and the original reinstated."
I used to be a Europhile, but my perception of the way the EU really works has been altered irrevocably. So, either the ConDems provide us with a true exit referendum before May 2015, or UKIP gets my vote next time.
[*Ironically in the light of this thread the title is "FLYING FREE"]
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Name and shame this MEP. He obviously has no clue on how our lives work
I for one do not sleep easily during the day. Especially if I have been getting up at 9am the previous three days for midday check ins to the TFS, PMIs and DLMs etc. Only to report for an 8pm night DLM on day four. I'll naturally wake up at 9am, get little sleep then work throughout the night. Not easy and 'controlled rest' is often necessary. And this was under our [old] FTLs.
Perhaps we should set up a scientific experiment for these "men in power".
Basically have them do a normal days work Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Then on Saturday tell them you have free reign to do as you please but you must report to us at 8pm for extra curricular activities. Sit them at a MS simulator and tell them to sit there for another 9 hours whilst it does a DLM and back while we engage in light conversation with the occasional simulated freq change. I wonder how much they'll like it?
I for one do not sleep easily during the day. Especially if I have been getting up at 9am the previous three days for midday check ins to the TFS, PMIs and DLMs etc. Only to report for an 8pm night DLM on day four. I'll naturally wake up at 9am, get little sleep then work throughout the night. Not easy and 'controlled rest' is often necessary. And this was under our [old] FTLs.
Perhaps we should set up a scientific experiment for these "men in power".
Basically have them do a normal days work Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Then on Saturday tell them you have free reign to do as you please but you must report to us at 8pm for extra curricular activities. Sit them at a MS simulator and tell them to sit there for another 9 hours whilst it does a DLM and back while we engage in light conversation with the occasional simulated freq change. I wonder how much they'll like it?
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Never thought I would say this, but after today's result UKIP gets my vote all the way. I don't know how these people justify such decisions. Completely clueless individuals making changes that they know nothing about. You couldn't write it! 
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Any information on the make up of the Lobby group and the Airlines behind it. The whole exercise, ie a mirror image of the campaign fought by the respective pilot groups, but for the aviation industry must have cost something and have been funded by someone?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I wrote to ALL my MEPs, but only got one reply. Well considered, and a pledge to vote the bill out. To save guessing, he's UKIP. No reply from the several Conservatives.
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I wrote to all my MEPs.
I got a very strong response from UKIP. A bizarrely coded one from the Green Party (effectively: we will be voting against rejecting these proposals) and a rebuffing from the Conservatives basically telling me my argument was not sound and poorly thought through. And it didn't rely on scientific evidence.
One more for UKIP next time around here...
I got a very strong response from UKIP. A bizarrely coded one from the Green Party (effectively: we will be voting against rejecting these proposals) and a rebuffing from the Conservatives basically telling me my argument was not sound and poorly thought through. And it didn't rely on scientific evidence.
One more for UKIP next time around here...
Six UKIP MEPs voted in favour of the new FTLs!!
The voting record is here:http://t.co/XTB3WzJFbs
The vote record appears on page 41.
+ Against the new proposals
- in favour of the new FTL proposals
The voting record is here:http://t.co/XTB3WzJFbs
The vote record appears on page 41.
+ Against the new proposals
- in favour of the new FTL proposals
Last edited by tubby linton; 9th Oct 2013 at 16:30.
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The EU parliament is an expensive camouflage behind with the EC runs Europe.
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From the BBC News on line
Under the new act
So given that EASA FTL will be managed in the UK either under FRMS or airline social / industrial agreements / Working Time Directive things perhaps not as bad as you make out?
Under the new act
Under the new act
Flight duty time at night is cut by 45 minutes to a maximum of 11 hours
The maximum number of flying hours in 12 consecutive months is reduced from 1,300 to 1,000
Weekly rest is increased to two days instead of a day and a half, twice a month
After a significant time zone crossing, five days' rest are granted at home base, in contrast to the two days or less allowed by some member states
Maximum duty time during airport standby (ie standby plus flight time) is fixed at 16 hours instead of the 26 or 28 allowed by some member states
Flight duty time at night is cut by 45 minutes to a maximum of 11 hours
The maximum number of flying hours in 12 consecutive months is reduced from 1,300 to 1,000
Weekly rest is increased to two days instead of a day and a half, twice a month
After a significant time zone crossing, five days' rest are granted at home base, in contrast to the two days or less allowed by some member states
Maximum duty time during airport standby (ie standby plus flight time) is fixed at 16 hours instead of the 26 or 28 allowed by some member states