Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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Framer
, this applies to probably 80%+ of the comments here (although I am quoting you out of context, slightly).
Oh that people with nothing to add STFU
, and took the time and courtesy to read the whole thread, thereby not asking questions that have already been answered; and didn't make pointless comments like speculating on similarities to BA, Lion Air, yadda yadda.
It's so abvious that there are so many real numpties posting here these days - I really miss the days of yore when there were intelligent exchanges between knowledgable people
, this applies to probably 80%+ of the comments here (although I am quoting you out of context, slightly).Oh that people with nothing to add STFU
, and took the time and courtesy to read the whole thread, thereby not asking questions that have already been answered; and didn't make pointless comments like speculating on similarities to BA, Lion Air, yadda yadda.It's so abvious that there are so many real numpties posting here these days - I really miss the days of yore when there were intelligent exchanges between knowledgable people
He must have been under line training with a senior training Captain in the right seat?
If so then the training Captain in the right seat should not have let this develop.
If it wasn't a training flight then likewise the FO in the right seat should have spoken up and not let this develop
What the hell were the 2 relief guys in the jump seats doing?? Reading the paper??
If so then the training Captain in the right seat should not have let this develop.
If it wasn't a training flight then likewise the FO in the right seat should have spoken up and not let this develop
What the hell were the 2 relief guys in the jump seats doing?? Reading the paper??
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413X3,
As a matter of fact, after the Colgan crash, the "culture" that produced the pilots involved was very much examined and discussed. As were the human factors that led to Tenerife. They VERY much admitted there were cultural problems within KLM, that accident kicked off what we now study as CRM and Human Factors. No one mentioned skin colour, you're the one doing so.
The Korean accident record is what it is, writing off 16 hulls and killing over 700 people before steps were taken to try and improve things after 1999. Sorry if facts offend you.
But most accidents have numerous things that contribute to them. In this accident I think it's safe to say weather wasn't a contributing factor. By all preliminary accounts the a/c was operating perfectly (still to be positively verified). What does that leave? Human factors. To suggest that how one makes decisions, interacts with others, isn't to some degree affected by one's cultural background, is dangerously naive. It's got nothing to do with race, quit muddying the waters.
As a matter of fact, after the Colgan crash, the "culture" that produced the pilots involved was very much examined and discussed. As were the human factors that led to Tenerife. They VERY much admitted there were cultural problems within KLM, that accident kicked off what we now study as CRM and Human Factors. No one mentioned skin colour, you're the one doing so.
The Korean accident record is what it is, writing off 16 hulls and killing over 700 people before steps were taken to try and improve things after 1999. Sorry if facts offend you.
But most accidents have numerous things that contribute to them. In this accident I think it's safe to say weather wasn't a contributing factor. By all preliminary accounts the a/c was operating perfectly (still to be positively verified). What does that leave? Human factors. To suggest that how one makes decisions, interacts with others, isn't to some degree affected by one's cultural background, is dangerously naive. It's got nothing to do with race, quit muddying the waters.
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Is there a case for standardised displaced thresholds at destinations where there are no safe undershoot options, or where there are difficulties assessing height visualy ( over water)? In this instance, if the aircraft had been 2-3 feet lower, most of passengers would have been lost.
The worst case scenario has (almost) happened.
The worst case scenario has (almost) happened.
You can only do so much however, before someone ends up off the other end (maybe not SFO but somewhere shorter?) and we say "why the inset threshold"
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'Personally I keep my hand on the thrust levers until the flaps are up after take-off & on approach from the first flap selection, regardless of whether or not the autopilot and/or the autothrottle is engaged. I also have my hand on the thrust levers when I anticipate a major thrust change in flight e.g. enroute level change or top of descent. If the thrust levers don't move to where I expect them to be, I put them there. If the autothrottle fights me, I disengage it until I have time to sort the issue out.'
That's something termed 'airmanship' that used to be part and parcel of learning the trade but is sadly lacking in today's world of young crew who are being trained by a slightly older generation of trainers who also never took 'airmanship' on board. It really does come down to training and training standards.
That's something termed 'airmanship' that used to be part and parcel of learning the trade but is sadly lacking in today's world of young crew who are being trained by a slightly older generation of trainers who also never took 'airmanship' on board. It really does come down to training and training standards.
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Even though I have seen it manifested on the line a number of times & recent accident history points to it, I am still amazed by some of what I am reading here.
Airspeed is a primary flight instrument. Those who don't monitor it when the autothrottle is engaged are only half flying the aircraft, having given control of a critical aspect of flight to the whim of the automatic flight control system. A system that has become so complex on jet transport aircraft that few understand it completely, regardless of type. Those who think this is acceptable are either inadequately trained or lazy, or both.
Machines are not infallible. They sometimes behave in unexpected ways or fail, either partially or completely. Personally I keep my hand on the thrust levers until the flaps are up after take-off & on approach from the first flap selection, regardless of whether or not the autopilot and/or the autothrottle is engaged. I also have my hand on the thrust levers when I anticipate a major thrust change in flight e.g. enroute level change or top of descent. If the thrust levers don't move to where I expect them to be, I put them there. If the autothrottle fights me, I disengage it until I have time to sort the issue out.
Jet transport aviation is a complex & serious business. Too many do not treat it with the seriousness that it demands.
Airspeed is a primary flight instrument. Those who don't monitor it when the autothrottle is engaged are only half flying the aircraft, having given control of a critical aspect of flight to the whim of the automatic flight control system. A system that has become so complex on jet transport aircraft that few understand it completely, regardless of type. Those who think this is acceptable are either inadequately trained or lazy, or both.
Machines are not infallible. They sometimes behave in unexpected ways or fail, either partially or completely. Personally I keep my hand on the thrust levers until the flaps are up after take-off & on approach from the first flap selection, regardless of whether or not the autopilot and/or the autothrottle is engaged. I also have my hand on the thrust levers when I anticipate a major thrust change in flight e.g. enroute level change or top of descent. If the thrust levers don't move to where I expect them to be, I put them there. If the autothrottle fights me, I disengage it until I have time to sort the issue out.
Jet transport aviation is a complex & serious business. Too many do not treat it with the seriousness that it demands.
Last edited by Oakape; 8th Jul 2013 at 09:06.
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@David1300
So you see no RELEVANT similarities to Lion DPS, perhaps because DPS was a Reef as opposed to a sea wall? Perhaps you might look a little more at the details of DPS? I would be happy to revert after both investigations are complete but I think you might regret that comment. I believe that there ARE substantial similarities between these two events, especially in view of emerging SFO PIC information, also seemingly analogous to DPS. I also continue to believe that CRM remains an enormous issue with Asian Lines as a result of deeply ingrained cultural biases. AT LEAST that. The automation issues notwithstanding. I would be happy to receive your reasoned response to reject such.
In the meantime, what makes you so omnipotent to accuse other experienced posters of being Muppets? Especially when you can't even beat The Lions at home?
In the meantime, what makes you so omnipotent to accuse other experienced posters of being Muppets? Especially when you can't even beat The Lions at home?
Last edited by philipat; 8th Jul 2013 at 10:54.
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Even without a PAPI (and it was not the case) you can assess if you are on a correct glide path! I am expecting that for a 9000 hours pilot!
I would like to point out that 1 hour 9000 times does not equal 9000 hours experience. Pretty sad and pretty tyipcal nowdays....
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Just a bad approach/landing it seems
Oddly enough my guess is from everything I have read about what was just apparently a poorly executed approach and landing, is that it would have been LESS likely to happen in IFR conditions! The crew was likely much more lax in accessing and correcting for an unstabilized approach while visually flying it than had they been flying it on instruments.
I find it weird how the "new(er) generation" flight crews have got the basic flying skills so poorly learned and/or miserably handled at times.
I find it weird how the "new(er) generation" flight crews have got the basic flying skills so poorly learned and/or miserably handled at times.
Last edited by fsfaludi; 8th Jul 2013 at 09:40. Reason: missing title
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To Nigel, post 789:
Nigel. this thing visual and also last stage runway switches , though the latter not now implicated in this case, has been going on for more than a decade at SFO.
I don't believe SFO is unable because of either practical or financial reasons , to install ILS, means to say localizer plus glideslope on all runways. Is this a noise problem or problem with the height of the San Mateo bridge?
Modern international airports have complete (means to say localizer plus glideslope) ILS landing transmitters installed for all runways that might be expected to be used.
Automatics, in the hard light of experience, have been proven to be safer.
USA dealing, as they are lbs, us gallons, degrees fahrenheit , might be seen to be backward by some of those with a more global perspective.
Separate the men from the boys, true pilots from systems operators?
Look what happen. Was that the intention?
Nigel. this thing visual and also last stage runway switches , though the latter not now implicated in this case, has been going on for more than a decade at SFO.
I don't believe SFO is unable because of either practical or financial reasons , to install ILS, means to say localizer plus glideslope on all runways. Is this a noise problem or problem with the height of the San Mateo bridge?
Modern international airports have complete (means to say localizer plus glideslope) ILS landing transmitters installed for all runways that might be expected to be used.
Automatics, in the hard light of experience, have been proven to be safer.
USA dealing, as they are lbs, us gallons, degrees fahrenheit , might be seen to be backward by some of those with a more global perspective.
Separate the men from the boys, true pilots from systems operators?
Look what happen. Was that the intention?
Last edited by Bueno Hombre; 8th Jul 2013 at 11:00.
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evacuation
Judging by the outcome and what we know so far, cabin crew must have been doing a good job. According to the SF fire chief, the evacuation was "orderly". People were helping each other. Slides were deployed before the fire started. I'm not an armchair investigator, but it think it's safe to say that solid engineering - the 777 took a lot of punishment - and a successful evacuation saved roughly 300 lives.
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The one thing that worries me about commercial aircraft accidents in recent years is the (apparent) neglect of the crew to scan their instruments on approach to land. From the first day that you climb into a C150 for training that is drummed into you. If there was only one pilot in the flight deck you could (almost) forgive such a lapse but when you have two (and in some incident flights at least three) and not one of them notices that the airspeed is not what it should be in what is probably the most important phase of any flight it makes your eyes water. Humans make mistakes but not usually all at the same time. Stall warnings and stick shakers, etc., are in place as a last resort but no professional pilots should ever reach a stage where they are required because airspeed is such a basic rule of flying any aircraft let alone a large commercial transport. And, if someone in the flight deck is undergoing training, wouldn't you, as the monitoring crew, be even more vigilant. You have to ask the question, "what else were they thinking about?" during the landing that it took precedence over a vital component.
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What speed did he have with a strange AoA like that?
777-200 Tail Strike Pitch Attitude is approximately 12.1 degrees
777-200 (assuming 330 KLBS landing weight and sea-level) VREF 30+10 is 147 KIAS with a Final Approach Pitch Attitude of appraximately 0.0 to 1.0 degrees
For what we have seen the tail landed first so the airplane pitch attitude was more then 12.1 degrees ... more than 10 degrees difference from a normal landing attitude ...
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A Captain is a Captain, whether in training or not, as a lowly FO you still don't tell him what to do or you'll be demoted off the airline.
This is what I gather from this thread. That hierarchical thinking is what put a lot of ships on land in my profession.
This is what I gather from this thread. That hierarchical thinking is what put a lot of ships on land in my profession.
Sky sources saying that 2 Captains were flying the aircraft. The chief Exec saying if it is pilot error then the Captain with more experience (we presume a training Captain) will have to "shoulder some of the blame".
I'm at a loss to see how an approach like this could be screwed up so badly at the last minute.
I'm at a loss to see how an approach like this could be screwed up so badly at the last minute.
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Interesting point exiting with hand luggage
While accepting Polysilane's point about the unacceptability of the pax walking away from the crash with hand baggage how on earth does he/she think the cabin crew could have stopped this - taking bags away from pax at the door would created (literally) an insurmountable problem for pax following behind - better just to let them take the bags - if only to get them out of the way!
Quite frankly (after 34 years as a professional pilot - B744 Captain at the end) if I were a passenger and had the opportunity to get all my important documents off I would do the same as well - similarly I would do (and have done) in both an earthquake and two hotel fires in the past.
The pain of trying to reconstruct your life in a foreign country if all your documention is gone doesn't bear thinking about - unless it is absolutely unavoidable!!
Quite frankly (after 34 years as a professional pilot - B744 Captain at the end) if I were a passenger and had the opportunity to get all my important documents off I would do the same as well - similarly I would do (and have done) in both an earthquake and two hotel fires in the past.
The pain of trying to reconstruct your life in a foreign country if all your documention is gone doesn't bear thinking about - unless it is absolutely unavoidable!!
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Autobackup, naughty naughty....... but totally agreed. Logic will disappear in stressful situations for pax. Just get them off asap
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"Sorry but you don't screw up any approach at the last minute ..."
What's the tag line to "Air Crash Investigations"? An accident is the sum total of a number of factors that produce the results that we see.
In that vein, what are the current "facts"? I don't think it needs a brain surgeon to work it out.
The "Why" is the domain of the accident investigators, and from the news conference today it's not particularly difficult to work out where they are going.
The "Why of Why's" will be of particular interest - that deals with the CRM and why an aircraft in a badly stabilised approach was permitted to land by a crew who should have known better. That may be a cultural reason, and it's to be honest not unexpected given history.
I'd suggest that until that time, discussions around passenger dis-embarcation be moved somewhere else to be completely honest. Moderators?
Just my 0.001c
What's the tag line to "Air Crash Investigations"? An accident is the sum total of a number of factors that produce the results that we see.
In that vein, what are the current "facts"? I don't think it needs a brain surgeon to work it out.
The "Why" is the domain of the accident investigators, and from the news conference today it's not particularly difficult to work out where they are going.
The "Why of Why's" will be of particular interest - that deals with the CRM and why an aircraft in a badly stabilised approach was permitted to land by a crew who should have known better. That may be a cultural reason, and it's to be honest not unexpected given history.
I'd suggest that until that time, discussions around passenger dis-embarcation be moved somewhere else to be completely honest. Moderators?
Just my 0.001c
Last edited by yssy.ymel; 8th Jul 2013 at 11:18.
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@AutoBackup
1. Hope you didn't get "Bailed-IN" in Cyprus.
2. Agreed, especially given the present day "Generosity" of Lines and Insurance Companies plus the difficulty these days of replacing Passports, Credit Cards etc., I would for sure bring my small briefcase with me. It's always under my feet in all classes when not flying up front.
3. The problem would arise when, as I'm sure happens, passengers want to bring the 20Kg Wheelie in the O/H bins with them as well. But that's their choice, given the need to get off fast.
2. Agreed, especially given the present day "Generosity" of Lines and Insurance Companies plus the difficulty these days of replacing Passports, Credit Cards etc., I would for sure bring my small briefcase with me. It's always under my feet in all classes when not flying up front.
3. The problem would arise when, as I'm sure happens, passengers want to bring the 20Kg Wheelie in the O/H bins with them as well. But that's their choice, given the need to get off fast.