Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
That's not what happened. The "speed ref" switch was (incorrectly) left in a position appropriate for icing conditions when there were none - thus the Stall Warning was triggered well before the aircraft was actually approaching stall. The crew response to the warning was inappropriate and resulted in a crash, but the real devil in the detail there was that both pilots were considerably more fatigued in real terms than they would have appeared on paper, and on top of that the F/O was evidently sick.
The real devil in the detail was that the captain couldn't fly an aeroplane, never could fly an aeroplane, but had managed to scrape through numerous checks by the skin of his teeth.
Last edited by AerocatS2A; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:11.
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Amazing how anyone pointing out rushing to judge entire cultures based on your personal experiences is labeled a "liberal" as if that's a bad thing? All of the greatest intellectuals of all time have been liberals. There's a reason for this.
Now back to the "culture" complaint. Tell me, why is it only certain cultures get labeled as having poor pilots? Remind me again what race the demanding and arrogant captain of the Tenerife crash was? Asian? African? Middle Eastern?
Now about the "lack of flying skills." Remind me again what race the pilots were of the Colgan Q400 crash where basic skills to maintain speed and then to recover from a stall were unknown to both pilots?
If I want, I could be ignorant and keep posting here how because of those crashes, any future crashes with white people in the pilots chairs are obviously just incapable of flying properly because of their genetics or culture. But then that would be pretty racist and ignorant, wouldn't it?
Now back to the "culture" complaint. Tell me, why is it only certain cultures get labeled as having poor pilots? Remind me again what race the demanding and arrogant captain of the Tenerife crash was? Asian? African? Middle Eastern?
Now about the "lack of flying skills." Remind me again what race the pilots were of the Colgan Q400 crash where basic skills to maintain speed and then to recover from a stall were unknown to both pilots?
If I want, I could be ignorant and keep posting here how because of those crashes, any future crashes with white people in the pilots chairs are obviously just incapable of flying properly because of their genetics or culture. But then that would be pretty racist and ignorant, wouldn't it?
Last edited by 413X3; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:23.
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It's sobering to read that certain cultures produce pilots who are challenged to land a healthy plane without a full complement of helpful equipment. A sunny 11k ft runway is too hard to negotiate. Really?
Wonder if the world just took a step closer to pilotless cockpits.
Wonder if the world just took a step closer to pilotless cockpits.
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@AerocatS2A:
That's a little harsh - he was of below average ability by all accounts, but by the very nature of the way statistics work, that's going to be true of 50% of all transport-category pilots in the world. If anything, that's an even bigger incentive to minimise other risks (such as fatigue), surely?
That's a little harsh - he was of below average ability by all accounts, but by the very nature of the way statistics work, that's going to be true of 50% of all transport-category pilots in the world. If anything, that's an even bigger incentive to minimise other risks (such as fatigue), surely?
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:25.
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@cdogg
To draw a stark contrast, your profession actively conceals individual performance data so the punters can't make an informed decision and Dr. Hodad can keep his job. If these Korean pilots were surgeons they'd be back in the operating theater tomorrow.
"If there really are a significant number of pilots who seriously think that Korean pilots as Koreans were more likely to make the errors it appears these pilots made, that's profoundly disappointing."
Why would you sign up just to make that comment? It adds nothing to the discussion and is pure political correctness. You have no idea what the cockpit culture and hand flying skills are like at Asiana. I don't either so I listen to the professionals who appear to be divided in their opinion.To draw a stark contrast, your profession actively conceals individual performance data so the punters can't make an informed decision and Dr. Hodad can keep his job. If these Korean pilots were surgeons they'd be back in the operating theater tomorrow.
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Wonder if the world just took a step closer to pilotless cockpits.
The manufacturer would be solely to blame when the inevitable happened. The lawyers would never allow it.
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con-pilot:
You misunderstand.
I was responding to a post about the legal consequences the pilots will likely face in Korea; I was referring to the likely delay in the Koreans getting their hands on the pilots, due to potential US legal proceedings happening first, since the deaths happened on US soil.
I was not referring to any delay in repatriating the bodies of the unfortunate pax.
Just what the hell does that have to do with this accident? Not to mention that it is not true, as soon as the autopsies are completed, the bodies will be released to the families or their official/legal representatives. As they are dealing with two young teenagers from China that were killed in an aircraft accident, it will be done very quickly, because the victims of aircraft accidents have priority.
I was responding to a post about the legal consequences the pilots will likely face in Korea; I was referring to the likely delay in the Koreans getting their hands on the pilots, due to potential US legal proceedings happening first, since the deaths happened on US soil.
I was not referring to any delay in repatriating the bodies of the unfortunate pax.
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The root of all this (waiting too long to make the decision to GO AROUND) is basically Lion Air 904 repeated - give or take a couple 100 feet.
Yet another cockpit crew lacking in assertiveness over the situation and inability to think outside the box quickly enough.
Yet another cockpit crew lacking in assertiveness over the situation and inability to think outside the box quickly enough.
Psychophysiological entity
If there really are a significant number of pilots who seriously think that Korean pilots as Koreans were more likely to make the errors it appears these pilots made, that's profoundly disappointing.
Some of the people criticizing the training in that particular country have first hand experience of their methods of operation. What they are saying is: Korean pilots seem to be affected by a lack of a certain type of training and day-to-day experience, not that they are inadequate in some way because they are Korean. There is a huge difference.
To those bemoaning the `racism' in this thread.
Some cultures have high power distance - i.e. you do not question those in charge.
Others have low power distance - you can question those in charge.
It's a fact of life - not racism.
Read the long history of how Korean cultural norms contributed indirectly to the Guam crash and many other accidents - among a host of other factors.
It's a well established scientific principle in aviation human factors - not racism at all.
From Malcolm Gladwell - certainly not a conservative, or a racist for that matter:
"Korean Air had more plane crashes than almost any other airline in the world for a period at the end of the 1990s. When we think of airline crashes, we think, Oh, they must have had old planes. They must have had badly trained pilots. No. What they were struggling with was a cultural legacy, that Korean culture is hierarchical. You are obliged to be deferential toward your elders and superiors in a way that would be unimaginable in the U.S.
But Boeing (BA, Fortune 500) and Airbus design modern, complex airplanes to be flown by two equals. That works beautifully in low-power-distance cultures [like the U.S., where hierarchies aren't as relevant]. But in cultures that have high power distance, it's very difficult.
I use the case study of a very famous plane crash in Guam of Korean Air. They're flying along, and they run into a little bit of trouble, the weather's bad. The pilot makes an error, and the co-pilot doesn't correct him. But once Korean Air figured out that their problem was cultural, they fixed it."
It's not the color of their skin we're debating about here. It's the effect of culture on human factors - an entirely different matter.
Some cultures have high power distance - i.e. you do not question those in charge.
Others have low power distance - you can question those in charge.
It's a fact of life - not racism.
Read the long history of how Korean cultural norms contributed indirectly to the Guam crash and many other accidents - among a host of other factors.
It's a well established scientific principle in aviation human factors - not racism at all.
From Malcolm Gladwell - certainly not a conservative, or a racist for that matter:
"Korean Air had more plane crashes than almost any other airline in the world for a period at the end of the 1990s. When we think of airline crashes, we think, Oh, they must have had old planes. They must have had badly trained pilots. No. What they were struggling with was a cultural legacy, that Korean culture is hierarchical. You are obliged to be deferential toward your elders and superiors in a way that would be unimaginable in the U.S.
But Boeing (BA, Fortune 500) and Airbus design modern, complex airplanes to be flown by two equals. That works beautifully in low-power-distance cultures [like the U.S., where hierarchies aren't as relevant]. But in cultures that have high power distance, it's very difficult.
I use the case study of a very famous plane crash in Guam of Korean Air. They're flying along, and they run into a little bit of trouble, the weather's bad. The pilot makes an error, and the co-pilot doesn't correct him. But once Korean Air figured out that their problem was cultural, they fixed it."
It's not the color of their skin we're debating about here. It's the effect of culture on human factors - an entirely different matter.
Last edited by tartare; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:48.
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DW writes,
Chest thumping feels so much better. The sad part is that these people are chest thumping their profession right into the dust bin of history.
If it is too expensive to keep all the navigation aids in service full time and there is no good way to save the passengers from the 50% of pilots who are always below average (except in Lake Woebegone) then the only sane solution is to go to the fully automated aircraft and kiss the piloting profession goodbye.
FTYSI writes,
But if this chest thumping keeps up the public is going to demand it and the politicans at the end of the day will listen to the voters and not the lawyers.
That's a little harsh - he was of below average ability by all accounts, but by the very nature of the way statistics work, that's going to be true of 50% of all transport-category pilots in the world. If anything, that's an even bigger incentive to minimise other risks (such as fatigue), surely?
If it is too expensive to keep all the navigation aids in service full time and there is no good way to save the passengers from the 50% of pilots who are always below average (except in Lake Woebegone) then the only sane solution is to go to the fully automated aircraft and kiss the piloting profession goodbye.
FTYSI writes,
Such a contraption only serves to shift the human factor from the flight deck to the programmers suite...
The manufacturer would be solely to blame when the inevitable happened. The lawyers would never allow it.
The manufacturer would be solely to blame when the inevitable happened. The lawyers would never allow it.
Last edited by MountainBear; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:48.
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http://www.pprune.org/members/107138-barit1
http://www.pprune.org/members/107138-barit1.
A great, considered and objective analysis on a tragic set of circumstances.
A great, considered and objective analysis on a tragic set of circumstances.
Last edited by fat232dog; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:50. Reason: Context and due credit
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My guess is that a hot and high approach was flown in FLCH. That is the only mode that will get you down in a hurry. If the A/P is then disconnected, the auto throttles will remain in Hold, and not "wake up". If a pilot purely concentrated on the aim point and forgot his scan, speed could easily wash off to the point of stick shaker or beyond. FLCH is a major threat in the 777 if used while hand flying and should never be used during an approach. Our SOPs require FDs off, then one back on to force AT into speed mode.
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I can't speak of Asiana, but I do know that after KAL afflicted themselves with a woeful safety record about a decade ago they were supposed to have completely overhauled their crew training, operations and company culture. Their record has since shown a dramatic improvement as far as I know, and it'd be interesting to hear from those with experience in, say, the last 5 years.
There is what we could call the "Pusan Effect." The company pushes an overly complicated visual approach at Pusan (circling approach, actually) that wrongly leads pilots to believe that all visual approaches need to be complex, white-knuckled events.
Last edited by ImbracableCrunk; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:55.
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Wow... just had a mini epiphany. It would be great for a 777 pilot to chime in on the following thought...
The 757/767 auto-throttles go into THR HLD and won't "wake up" till they capture the GS when APP is armed (as I recall... don't have the systems manual handy at the moment.) If the ILS is out of service and the pilot does not select SPD on the A/T panel, the thrust levers will remain in HLD waiting for the "capture". Perhaps this small bit of automation confusion led the Asiana pilots to falsely believe the speed would be protected when in fact the thrust levers will remain at idle (waiting for the capture.) I'm wondering if the 777 has a similar auto-throttle logic?
Where I've seen this occur most is a manual descent where the pilot flying shallows his rate of descent to 100-200 VVI and airspeed decays below target because ALT CAP has not occurred (till approximately 20-50 feet above level off.) I always warn new pilots (to the fleet) to remain vigilant whenever they see THR HLD, and always mentally confirm a capture and wake up of the auto-throttles.
Just thinking out loud why the airspeed decayed so significantly (according to an initial NTSB briefing.)
The 757/767 auto-throttles go into THR HLD and won't "wake up" till they capture the GS when APP is armed (as I recall... don't have the systems manual handy at the moment.) If the ILS is out of service and the pilot does not select SPD on the A/T panel, the thrust levers will remain in HLD waiting for the "capture". Perhaps this small bit of automation confusion led the Asiana pilots to falsely believe the speed would be protected when in fact the thrust levers will remain at idle (waiting for the capture.) I'm wondering if the 777 has a similar auto-throttle logic?
Where I've seen this occur most is a manual descent where the pilot flying shallows his rate of descent to 100-200 VVI and airspeed decays below target because ALT CAP has not occurred (till approximately 20-50 feet above level off.) I always warn new pilots (to the fleet) to remain vigilant whenever they see THR HLD, and always mentally confirm a capture and wake up of the auto-throttles.
Just thinking out loud why the airspeed decayed so significantly (according to an initial NTSB briefing.)
It is difficult for me to accept that the use of any autoflight or autothrottle mode is a good reason for the apparent failure in this case to monitor airspeed and altitude on the approach.
Likewise, the absence of a usable G/S on a CAVU day.
The automatic modes and navaids are aids. They do not replace basic airmanship.
Likewise, the absence of a usable G/S on a CAVU day.
The automatic modes and navaids are aids. They do not replace basic airmanship.
The Bumblebee
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Trainee Captain
Everyone is saying that it was the FO who had less then 50 hours on type. What I heard on this side of the pond is that it was a trainee captain with an instructor in the flight deck.
I hope these rumors are incorrect, as this situation makes it worse than a trainee FO (the reports say that PF joined company in 1994, so there is no way he was still an FO, may be change of fleet as a captain.)
I hope these rumors are incorrect, as this situation makes it worse than a trainee FO (the reports say that PF joined company in 1994, so there is no way he was still an FO, may be change of fleet as a captain.)