Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

[Average Fool]

Sadly ironic that the very reason the G/S was off was to facilitate construction of an overrun/safety area for those runways.

[hotnhigh]

So in a matter of weeks we've had lion air destroy of a perfectly serviceable 738 in bali, and now a 777 seems to have come to the same terrible result. In both cases it appears basic airmanship is severely lacking.
You've really got to ask yourself wtf!
Perhaps the penny will finally drop with the bean counters when the insurance premiums come due.

[Minimbah]

ABC Australia Report

More talk about the injuries here as well as an imbedded video. Some very ill people in the hospital.
Asiana Airlines pilot was training to fly jet that crashed in San Francisco - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[mm43]

A lesson that I expect no one will forget...

The autothrottle can support stall protection if armed and not engaged. If speed decreases to near stick shaker activation, the autothrottle engages in the appropriate mode (SPD or THR REF) and advances thrust to maintain minimum maneuvering speed (approximately the top of the amber band) or the speed set in the mode control panel speed window, whichever is greater. The EICAS message AIRSPEED LOW is displayed.

Note: When the pitch mode is FLCH or TOGA, or the airplane is below 400 feet above the airport on takeoff, or below 100 feet radio altitude on approach, the autothrottle will not automatically engage.

[Mic Dundee]

Wow DEESIDE! You have a whopping ONE post ever, and this was it? Flat earth society. Go back into your hole!

Originally Posted by deeside

I don't care how many hours you have chalked up 'YOU WERE NOT THERE" !!!!to make such disparaging comments re the flight crew without any knowledge of what has just occurred is beyond me.Why not wait like everybody else to get the facts instead of being a bunch of smart arses prior to knowing the facts,just like you would wish if you had been involved in such an event.

Care to rethink this? To >>>DEESIDE, answer this then, why did this cockpit crew allow the speed to decay to such an extent; and then failed to take decisive action until the Boeing 777 was less than two seconds from impact?

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by DozyWannabe

That's a little harsh - he was of below average ability by all accounts, but by the very nature of the way statistics work, that's going to be true of 50% of all transport-category pilots in the world. If anything, that's an even bigger incentive to minimise other risks (such as fatigue), surely?

Yes it was worded a bit harshly. Still I sincerely hope that he was more than just a little below average. If 50% of transport pilots in the world would pull hard and keep pulling all the way to the ground in response to the stick shaker then we are in big trouble. (You are thinking of the median by the way, the median separates one half of the data from another, the average does not necessarily do this but it does tend to given a normal bell curve.)

Originally Posted by bamboo30

Aerocat yes of course the capt couldnt fly an aeroplane cos only you could. You re such an ace pilot. For goodness sack start bashing the crew before any comprehensive findings

I wasn't talking about the Asiana pilots bamboo

[ironbutt57]

So what would have been set in the MCP altitude window if indeed the approach was flown using FLCH??

[MoJo WoJo]

Asiana says pilot of crashed plane was in training

Asiana says pilot of crashed plane was in training

[StormyKnight]

I found this interesting reading from 2008...
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/34257...peed-prot.html

[filejw]

57...I would hope 1000agl but apperantly not in his case. So sad....

[ironbutt57]

Many airlines may be unknowingly discouraging manual approaches due to their own stabilized approach requirements, while necessary of course, many crews will tend to engage automatics to the highest level to avoid an unstable approach and the inevitable round of tea n bikkies in the office, hence the lack of skills when automation is not available at the expected levels

[Offcut]

No ones knows what was in the MCP window but they may have set missed approach alt, disengaged the autopilot and hand flown. Therefore no auto thrust and no flight directors commanding a level off, if they were switched on. Even off you completely misjudged the profile I can't see how the speed could get so low unless the auto throttle was either stuck in hold due to FLCH or had been manually switched off. My guess is the FLCH situation. If you had manually turned off autothrust, one would imagine you would pay a bit more attention to thrust levels. A misunderstanding of FLCH could lead to a lack of thrust quite easily. The ATHR push button on the MCP will still be illuminated indicating it is active, however it will not add thrust. As always, FMAs are king.

[thcrozier]

Cultures

The amazing thing about cultural differences is that only US citizens with no experience deny they exist. The rest of the world celebrates them. As long as training ignores the nature of culture, there will be problems. As Dr. Feynman said in his appendix to the Challenger report, "nature cannot be fooled".

[fdr]

"FLCH is a major threats..."

???

pardon me, but having just spent considerable time listening to otherwise competent individuals state that while V/S is an approved mode, "we don't use it...", now FLCH is dangerous, and of course, the ever present risk of VNAV... excuse me if I just cough up a bit of lung here.

AT? Helps pilots.... if the pilot is not aware of what it is doing, then you end up with issues.... (its an SA thingy...) Remember a DC10 off piste in NY? THY @ AMS etc? point is, only one item is being paid to be the pilot, that is the pilot.. not the AT.

VS mode? no protections? If there is no pilot around, possibly true (its an SA thingy...)

FLCH mode? limited protections? If there is no pilot around, possibly true (its an SA thingy...)

VNAV mode? GIGO? If there is no pilot around, possibly true (its an SA thingy...)

How about we just close the doors and all go home until the system decides that working with SA limitations of pilots, and hardening their behaviours to SA errors, and giving them the skills that they needed when they flew Piper Cubs, has some merits. (its an SA thingy...)

FWIW, the PAPI, rwy aspect & perspective all become pretty darn moot when you have to view them through the kelp bed through the upper part of the windows. It's an SA thingy, or actually something to do with internal reflection angles/partial reflection as a Quantum ElectroDynamics thingy (QED).

What will be interesting is how much of the back story of the training provided by the 3rd party gets to be aired, the ruination of the career of people trying to maintain the service providors standards, and these gallant individuals being sacrificed in no small number to aquiesce to the recidivism of the customers self indulgent training and standards program. Commercial reality at its best. Truth is a complete defence... FYI

Lions: 1, Gladiators: 0.

[CrazySwiss]

Asiana apologises?

It's interesting to see that on the Asiana home page they are not just expressing regret, but apologising.

"We at Asiana Airlines would like express our utmost sympathy and regret for the distress experienced by the passengers of OZ flight 214 and their families as a result of this accident. We apologize most deeply."

[Offcut]

FDR, FLCH is a major threat........ When used during approach or hand flying. Look it up. In other phases of flight it is a very useful mode. Just because something is identified as a threat doesn't mean we are all incompetent muppets. No G/S is a threat. It doesn't mean that we should crash, just that the threat needs to be managed. High terrain is a threat. Crosswinds are a threat. Lack of currency is a threat. Etc etc. All everyday occurrences that are managed in various ways.

[BBK]

I strongly recommend watching the NTSB news conference that someone has linked a few pages back. Apart from stating a few facts regarding the speed just prior to impact the chairman gives an insight into the exhaustive nature of the inquiry.

She also makes the point that nothing is ruled out and that human factors will be fully assessed eg training records, CRM, operations manuals etc.

The point is the NTSB have an open mind about the crash and collect whatever data they can/need to do the job. The "culture" of the airline, if it proves to be an issue, will, I am sure be revealed if it proves to be a factor.

[de facto]

I dont see the issue of no PAPI,one would use the aiming point no??yes you may not follow the usual 3 deg without papi..and what?if you cant maintain a normal path to the touchdown area,you shouldnt be flying professionally.

Now if the AT was at fault and didnt maintain the required speed...then CLICK CLICK AT OFF and adjust the thrust manually,if you cant do that you shouldnt fly professionally.

The captain lack of reaction obviously will be scrutinized.

[BBK]

The NTSB have confirmed the PAPIs for 28L were operational at the time of the crash. They were subsequently damaged and hence NOTAM'd as inop which may have caused some confusion as to their status.

[ventus45]

sobering ............. http://www.pprune.org/4396842-post21.html