Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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"The trap in the US seems to be......."
.......the assumption made by ATC that ALL pilots are of the same standard and that ALL pilots have local knowledge and that NO pilot is tired beyond belief.
Guess what!!!!!
.......the assumption made by ATC that ALL pilots are of the same standard and that ALL pilots have local knowledge and that NO pilot is tired beyond belief.
Guess what!!!!!
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Capn Bloggs I don't see why some people make it so difficult to fly a glide slope. You and I know power can climb or increase speed, attitude change can change climb or descent or change speed.
The AP uses power for speed and attitude for glide slope. They work together. To me the AP way works easiest so you don't have to do as much. If these three guys had done either we wouldn't have this discussion now. Power to go up works best before pitch in their case but not 1.5 seconds before the rocks especially in stick shaker and how did they get 30 knots slow? I thought 5 knots slow was a mandatory call out. A clear day on a simple visual and 3 pilots couldn't do it including a check airman. It would never happen on my airline, why them?
The AP uses power for speed and attitude for glide slope. They work together. To me the AP way works easiest so you don't have to do as much. If these three guys had done either we wouldn't have this discussion now. Power to go up works best before pitch in their case but not 1.5 seconds before the rocks especially in stick shaker and how did they get 30 knots slow? I thought 5 knots slow was a mandatory call out. A clear day on a simple visual and 3 pilots couldn't do it including a check airman. It would never happen on my airline, why them?
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With the greatest respect, we've spent 20 years trying to get pilots to not say 'it would never happen in my airline'!
I believe WE are all capable of having that disastrous day at the office given enough rope and bad luck. The question we should be asking is not why then but how did we make sure it's not us!
I can 100% understand how the combination of SFO approach control, a lack of GS, and a pilot converting from an Airbus to a Boeing could lead to a slow speed event. I'd hope the training regime and cockpit gradients in my airline would mean that even working at the mitigate level would avoid a crash but I think it's a dangerous mindset to think it 'couldn't happen.
I believe WE are all capable of having that disastrous day at the office given enough rope and bad luck. The question we should be asking is not why then but how did we make sure it's not us!
I can 100% understand how the combination of SFO approach control, a lack of GS, and a pilot converting from an Airbus to a Boeing could lead to a slow speed event. I'd hope the training regime and cockpit gradients in my airline would mean that even working at the mitigate level would avoid a crash but I think it's a dangerous mindset to think it 'couldn't happen.
What I find curious is the willingness to let ATC "fly" the plane. Admittedly, I grew up around and flew with guys that began in the DC-4 era and retired on DC-10s and B747s; but what I learned and still carry is the attitude, and it is an attitude, "I fly the plane, they figure out the traffic". If given a hard to comply with clearance, they'd refuse it or just ignore it. As one said to me in my formative years, "they have radar, they know what you are doing and why your're doin' it". The best lesson the old guys passed on was, " don't let it happen to you".
Yes, it's a different time, we have loads of aids, loads of rules and loads of "monitoring", but flying the plane hasn't changed.
Yes, it's a different time, we have loads of aids, loads of rules and loads of "monitoring", but flying the plane hasn't changed.
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 11th Jul 2013 at 01:46.
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THH, think about 3 pilots letting this happen, would it ever happen on your airline. I don't think so. Clear skies and a simple let down with no GS. Out of the thousands of visuals you have done have you ever been low? I didn't think so.
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THH..good one and it says one hell of a lot for the US strips. JFK is still a 1960's airfield desperately trying the game of catch up. SFO, we know is the same and lets not even start with Chicago. Its time that the FAA and ICAO got their aviation heads back on again and injected a shed load of "fit for purpose" into ATC and airfield systems. You can almost expect this in places like Jakarta..another fine mess, (07L, no ILS and NO PAPI offered up at NIGHT!!)..I digress..but the yanks need to get their fingers out and smell the odours from the coal face..irrespective of Asiana's stick n rudder skills,...the smell aint good!!
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Tscottme
To the journalist answering about seniority and racism. As an earlier comment described there are various measures of seniority. For example, age is one measure of seniority and so is class-level in school (freshman, sophmor, junior, senior). Membership in the Korean Air Force seems to bestow seniority above equally suited civilian pilots. I believe earlier info indicated the Pilot Flying was ahead of Pilot Monitoring (Training Captain) at aviation academy. The hours of flying experience which is the usual measure of seniority in US aviation may not be how pilots in Korean culture measure seniority, or it may only supersede some other measures of seniority. That is what the I-See-Racism-Everywhere posters are missing.
This is well documented in Malcolm Gladwell's book. It has been noted in a previous accident, I think KAL at Guam. You and other American flying pilots who measure exerience only in flight hours may stop looking for seniority issues at flight hours, but there is comment from other pilots in various Asian countries, airlines, and jobs reporting what they see, as it differs from what they have seen in America and EU. Aren't different cultures allowed to have their own views on things or are modern leftist politics now mandating all cultures are identical in all situations?
To the journalist answering about seniority and racism. As an earlier comment described there are various measures of seniority. For example, age is one measure of seniority and so is class-level in school (freshman, sophmor, junior, senior). Membership in the Korean Air Force seems to bestow seniority above equally suited civilian pilots. I believe earlier info indicated the Pilot Flying was ahead of Pilot Monitoring (Training Captain) at aviation academy. The hours of flying experience which is the usual measure of seniority in US aviation may not be how pilots in Korean culture measure seniority, or it may only supersede some other measures of seniority. That is what the I-See-Racism-Everywhere posters are missing.
This is well documented in Malcolm Gladwell's book. It has been noted in a previous accident, I think KAL at Guam. You and other American flying pilots who measure exerience only in flight hours may stop looking for seniority issues at flight hours, but there is comment from other pilots in various Asian countries, airlines, and jobs reporting what they see, as it differs from what they have seen in America and EU. Aren't different cultures allowed to have their own views on things or are modern leftist politics now mandating all cultures are identical in all situations?
In Korea, age is the most basic factor to determine seniority. For this age-based hierarchy to be neutralized, there has to be a confluence of some very unusual circumstances.
Re the information about the flying pilot being ahead of the trainer at flight academy. I'm not sure how reliable that is but had that been the case, it certainly would not have stopped the older guy from speaking up. Please keep in mind, at least for the flight, he is the "teacher" and in Asian countries, teachers are respected in ways that American educators can only dream of.
As some of you have already noted, Korea is a comparatively rigid society. There is a three-year gap between the two pilots. For the younger pilot to be a senior to the older man at a previous institution, he either had to be exceptionally brilliant a la Sheldon Cooper and skipped a few grades to enter the academy ahead of the older gentleman. Or the other bloke is so hopefully stupid that he wasted three years doing something useless and ended up being subordinate to people younger than him which doesn't happen very often over there.
To whit, the only scenario where the younger Lee might be in a superior position where the other guy felt intimidated enough not to speak up about a potentially disastrous decision is if the younger pilot was married to Asiana chairman's daughter or is related to the Minister of Transportation. Assuming that he isn't, speculating about potential cultural dynamics in the cockpit at this juncture is not very constructive.
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Bubbers,
I would hope it could never happen given the training regime I operate in but given the incidents that do happen I'd never rule out anything!
3 pilot ops should have prevented this, single pilot ops should have coped, but if we refuse to consider the environment that this accident happened in then we've learned nothing from the past!
I doubt very much that this looked like a simple let down at 3000' feet. I've flown a few Stuka1 arrivals into Sfo and but I made my gates and was stable at the appropriate time. They where all the result of accepting atc instructions that at times defied the laws of physics. Lesson now learned.
Nope, I've never been that low, but I've been where i shouldn't have been and hesitated to say GA due to the pressure to get in. Again lesson learned, picture stored away for the next time, the learning never stops, right?
As an old flight instructor said to me when I was a lad, the day you start thinking your to good to f&£k this all up, that's they day you just stop!
I would hope it could never happen given the training regime I operate in but given the incidents that do happen I'd never rule out anything!
3 pilot ops should have prevented this, single pilot ops should have coped, but if we refuse to consider the environment that this accident happened in then we've learned nothing from the past!
I doubt very much that this looked like a simple let down at 3000' feet. I've flown a few Stuka1 arrivals into Sfo and but I made my gates and was stable at the appropriate time. They where all the result of accepting atc instructions that at times defied the laws of physics. Lesson now learned.
Nope, I've never been that low, but I've been where i shouldn't have been and hesitated to say GA due to the pressure to get in. Again lesson learned, picture stored away for the next time, the learning never stops, right?
As an old flight instructor said to me when I was a lad, the day you start thinking your to good to f&£k this all up, that's they day you just stop!
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 11th Jul 2013 at 02:11.
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Pucka,
I forgot about ORD!
Basically when you can't win an argument that it's not a brilliant idea to have a landing aircraft stop short on a runway that crosses the runway another aircraft is departing on you know things are bad.
Fly to JFK long enough and you realise Pushing Tin wasn't a movie, it's a documentary.
HH.
I forgot about ORD!
Basically when you can't win an argument that it's not a brilliant idea to have a landing aircraft stop short on a runway that crosses the runway another aircraft is departing on you know things are bad.
Fly to JFK long enough and you realise Pushing Tin wasn't a movie, it's a documentary.
HH.
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 11th Jul 2013 at 02:21.
Pucka,
As a Yank, absolutely agree. I fly world-wide, in a Global, not a Boeing/Airbii, but US airports, for the uninitiated, are a disaster. You MUST know arcane procedures, local landmarks and patterns and, if you're not, there's he11 to pay. My favorite example is KTEB, where the tower refers to the "Holland tunnel" as a VFR landmark. First time, I said, "it's a tunnel, I'm in a plane". Thirty years ago, BA crews were commenting on why the Ynks put the Cat III ILS in the shortest runway. Hasn't changed, either.
As a Yank, absolutely agree. I fly world-wide, in a Global, not a Boeing/Airbii, but US airports, for the uninitiated, are a disaster. You MUST know arcane procedures, local landmarks and patterns and, if you're not, there's he11 to pay. My favorite example is KTEB, where the tower refers to the "Holland tunnel" as a VFR landmark. First time, I said, "it's a tunnel, I'm in a plane". Thirty years ago, BA crews were commenting on why the Ynks put the Cat III ILS in the shortest runway. Hasn't changed, either.
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THH:
In most airlines your comment is correct. Not in this environment. The F/O sitting on the jumpseat was not about to open his mouth with two captains sitting up front. Read the accident reports for KAL (Guam and Stansted). In both cases the F/O and F/E knew things were not right and sat there and let the captain kill them. That is the culture you are dealing with. Nothing has changed. As we used to say, "Lose your life but don't lose face". Korean F/O's don't correct Korean Captains. I will bet the F/O's voice is not on the Cockpit Voice Recorder.
3 pilot ops should have prevented this, single pilot ops should have coped, but if we refuse to consider the environment that this accident happened in then we've learned nothing from the past!
Last edited by Keylime; 11th Jul 2013 at 02:25.
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Keylime,
It's been reported here in the uk that the heavy is shouting sink rate at -54 secs to impact.
The cultural issues here may be central to the cause here, but assuming its pilot error the actuality of the handling and the reason for the profile will provide valuable insight for us all. Even of it just reinforces the need to continue to operate as we do.
The lessons that had to be learned to enable the delivery of CRM training, as we now know it, came at to heavy a cost for us to ever become complacent.
It's been reported here in the uk that the heavy is shouting sink rate at -54 secs to impact.
The cultural issues here may be central to the cause here, but assuming its pilot error the actuality of the handling and the reason for the profile will provide valuable insight for us all. Even of it just reinforces the need to continue to operate as we do.
The lessons that had to be learned to enable the delivery of CRM training, as we now know it, came at to heavy a cost for us to ever become complacent.
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The FAA, with impeccable timing, has come out with their new rules from the Colgan Air accident.
Link : UPDATE 1-U.S. airline pilots to need more flight time to qualify | Reuters
and a fair use quote:
"The NTSB notes that human factors concerns associated with low airspeed do not require more than 6 years of study for a solution to be implemented," the NTSB said in a 2010 report on the Colgan accident.
Kinda makes one wonder if the NTSB may have an agenda here as well.
Link : UPDATE 1-U.S. airline pilots to need more flight time to qualify | Reuters
and a fair use quote:
"The NTSB notes that human factors concerns associated with low airspeed do not require more than 6 years of study for a solution to be implemented," the NTSB said in a 2010 report on the Colgan accident.
Kinda makes one wonder if the NTSB may have an agenda here as well.
Last edited by LASJayhawk; 11th Jul 2013 at 02:40.
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@givemewings
Why would anyone have been bracing for anything? It was a "normal landing" as far as everyone in the back knew until the moment the plane struck the sea wall. There had been no PA, no warning, nothing. I thought this at least had been thoroughly established. And we now also know that 2 of the FA's had been pinned by slides deploying inside the cabin and 2, possibly 3 thrown out of the aircraft. They could have been bracing in full body armor with crash helmet and Nomex gear and all the above events would have still happened.
Sorry guys... but after 80 plus pages... the comments are getting goofy.
Why would anyone have been bracing for anything? It was a "normal landing" as far as everyone in the back knew until the moment the plane struck the sea wall. There had been no PA, no warning, nothing. I thought this at least had been thoroughly established. And we now also know that 2 of the FA's had been pinned by slides deploying inside the cabin and 2, possibly 3 thrown out of the aircraft. They could have been bracing in full body armor with crash helmet and Nomex gear and all the above events would have still happened.
Sorry guys... but after 80 plus pages... the comments are getting goofy.
Maynard
Very common for pax to get off plane saying they thought we were low because you appear to be descending into the water. You don't see land from a pax window till the last 20 seconds or so.
Very common for pax to get off plane saying they thought we were low because you appear to be descending into the water. You don't see land from a pax window till the last 20 seconds or so.
Last edited by West Coast; 11th Jul 2013 at 03:08.
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What would raise international standards?
From the comments posted in this thread it seems generally accepted that some international airlines have dramatically lower standards than US airlines regarding pilot proficiency in what used to be considered basic flying skills.
I doubt that the American flying public is aware of this.
I'm wondering what suggestions others have for ways that situation might be improved, as it doesn't look like something that will go away on its own.
Present case aside, let's say that a number of pilots currently flying into the USA are not actually prepared to land without benefit of an ILS.
What might get done about that?
Can the US unilaterally prohibit any international commercial pilot who hasn't demonstrated proficiency in landing without an ILS in the last X days from attempting such a landing in the USA if carrying passengers?
Or, if trade laws and international politics make that kind of move impractical, could there be a voluntary standard of testing airline pilots that is uniform around the globe that airline companies can put some or all of their pilots through, as they choose, but the percentage of pilots tested and their scores is made public and visible to passengers selecting which airline to book with?
I doubt that the American flying public is aware of this.
I'm wondering what suggestions others have for ways that situation might be improved, as it doesn't look like something that will go away on its own.
Present case aside, let's say that a number of pilots currently flying into the USA are not actually prepared to land without benefit of an ILS.
What might get done about that?
Can the US unilaterally prohibit any international commercial pilot who hasn't demonstrated proficiency in landing without an ILS in the last X days from attempting such a landing in the USA if carrying passengers?
Or, if trade laws and international politics make that kind of move impractical, could there be a voluntary standard of testing airline pilots that is uniform around the globe that airline companies can put some or all of their pilots through, as they choose, but the percentage of pilots tested and their scores is made public and visible to passengers selecting which airline to book with?
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From the comments posted in this thread it seems generally accepted that some international airlines have dramatically lower standards than US airlines regarding pilot proficiency in what used to be considered basic flying skills.
I doubt that the American flying public is aware of this.
I'm wondering what suggestions others have for ways that situation might be improved, as it doesn't look like something that will go away on its own.
Present case aside, let's say that a number of pilots currently flying into the USA are not actually prepared to land without benefit of an ILS.
What might get done about that?
Can the US unilaterally prohibit any international commercial pilot who hasn't demonstrated proficiency in landing without an ILS in the last X days from attempting such a landing in the USA if carrying passengers?
Or, if trade laws and international politics make that kind of move impractical, could there be a voluntary standard of testing airline pilots that is uniform around the globe that airline companies can put some or all of their pilots through, as they choose, but the percentage of pilots tested and their scores is made public and visible to passengers selecting which airline to book with?
I doubt that the American flying public is aware of this.
I'm wondering what suggestions others have for ways that situation might be improved, as it doesn't look like something that will go away on its own.
Present case aside, let's say that a number of pilots currently flying into the USA are not actually prepared to land without benefit of an ILS.
What might get done about that?
Can the US unilaterally prohibit any international commercial pilot who hasn't demonstrated proficiency in landing without an ILS in the last X days from attempting such a landing in the USA if carrying passengers?
Or, if trade laws and international politics make that kind of move impractical, could there be a voluntary standard of testing airline pilots that is uniform around the globe that airline companies can put some or all of their pilots through, as they choose, but the percentage of pilots tested and their scores is made public and visible to passengers selecting which airline to book with?
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Wrong
EXCEPT keylime is wrong. The FO (ex F5 and F16 driver in S Korean airforce) in the jumpseat DID speak up, about 53 seconds before impact, saying/yelling 'sink rate, sink rate'.