Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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Skynalist,
That is a topic worthy of a separate thread.
There are some frameworks in place. First of all, before an airline operates in the USA (or any other country) it must have regulatory approval - an "Air Operator Certificate (AOC)". The airline must demonstrate to the FAA that it has the systems and training to operate safely. Restrictions are routinely placed on the international operators for things like land and hold short, and there may be other restrictions on a case by case basis. After this accident it would not be unusual for the FAA to add restrictions to the AOC of an airline or group of airlines.
Additionally, there is a system of inspections and audits that can be done through IATA, such as the IATA Operational Safety Audit. IATA is an industry group, and while there are many positives about the audit process, the results are not public and the rectifications are not mandatory.
That is a topic worthy of a separate thread.
There are some frameworks in place. First of all, before an airline operates in the USA (or any other country) it must have regulatory approval - an "Air Operator Certificate (AOC)". The airline must demonstrate to the FAA that it has the systems and training to operate safely. Restrictions are routinely placed on the international operators for things like land and hold short, and there may be other restrictions on a case by case basis. After this accident it would not be unusual for the FAA to add restrictions to the AOC of an airline or group of airlines.
Additionally, there is a system of inspections and audits that can be done through IATA, such as the IATA Operational Safety Audit. IATA is an industry group, and while there are many positives about the audit process, the results are not public and the rectifications are not mandatory.
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... But if autoland is needed to stay safe in perfect weather, what margin of safety is available from the pilots if something goes wrong?
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(again: from a pure layman)
From my understanding, the reason why VNAV wouldn't have been as useful as an ILS approach, is that it seems (again, from naive outsider perspective) like these guys were *used* to ILS approaches.
Why make them do something they're not used to if it's not necessary? I've read a lot on this thread about "a 16 year old kid with a pilot's license should be able to perform a visual approach". It's more subtle than that.
The main issue is that they were asked to PARTIALLY interact with complex automated systems. This requires tremendous amounts of brain power. That load prevented them from looking at the airspeed (as egregious as that may be). The statements in this thread about whether or not autothrust was/should have been engaged read like legal documents. If they were 100% hand flying (NO AUTOTHRUST) this probably wouldn't have happened. The root cause is that they were doing something which i) wasn't completely routine for them and ii) involved interacting with complex (partial) automation. It's NOT that they weren't good enough at "stick and rudder"... it's that they weren't good enough at the video game (the complex automation).
Should pilots train to do non-routine things that they're not used to? Sure: in the sim. Should they have been able to handle a visual approach? Of course. Was a visual approach "routine" for them? (Seems no). Should it have been routine for them (on that precise type)? (I don't know since I'm not in the industry). Did the fact that they were required to do something that was not "routine" cause the accident? Yes.
From my understanding, the reason why VNAV wouldn't have been as useful as an ILS approach, is that it seems (again, from naive outsider perspective) like these guys were *used* to ILS approaches.
Why make them do something they're not used to if it's not necessary? I've read a lot on this thread about "a 16 year old kid with a pilot's license should be able to perform a visual approach". It's more subtle than that.
The main issue is that they were asked to PARTIALLY interact with complex automated systems. This requires tremendous amounts of brain power. That load prevented them from looking at the airspeed (as egregious as that may be). The statements in this thread about whether or not autothrust was/should have been engaged read like legal documents. If they were 100% hand flying (NO AUTOTHRUST) this probably wouldn't have happened. The root cause is that they were doing something which i) wasn't completely routine for them and ii) involved interacting with complex (partial) automation. It's NOT that they weren't good enough at "stick and rudder"... it's that they weren't good enough at the video game (the complex automation).
Should pilots train to do non-routine things that they're not used to? Sure: in the sim. Should they have been able to handle a visual approach? Of course. Was a visual approach "routine" for them? (Seems no). Should it have been routine for them (on that precise type)? (I don't know since I'm not in the industry). Did the fact that they were required to do something that was not "routine" cause the accident? Yes.
Last edited by Shademaster; 11th Jul 2013 at 05:18.
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NTSB is not telling the truth?
Yesterday one of media in Korea reportedly claimed that the pilots at OZ214 tried to full back throttle lever when they saw PAPI, which was 3 red and 1 white around 300 feet altitude, 30 seconds before crash but the throttle did not responded.
The statement was deliverately made from the governer of Korea Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transportation after they interviewed the pilots who were likely responsible for the crash of OZ214 at SFO.
According to pilots, they set the autothrottle ON after approaching angle is at their way to landing and recoginzed them lower than course from the view of PAPI. It says that immediately the captain manually full back the lever to increase engine power for moments but in vain.
There is big discrepencies between media and NTSB reports that Debora Hersman says the pilots in Asiana are premature at action and too late to accelerated the plane since they did not make on time.
By the way there are a couple of occasions that the thrust goes to idle when the autothrottle mode is engaged.
Autothrottle problems suspected in Heathrow 777 crash ? The Register
American Airlines Boeing 777 suffers autothrottle problem : Heathrow Airport News Stories
What is the turth? Hidding and covering?
The statement was deliverately made from the governer of Korea Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transportation after they interviewed the pilots who were likely responsible for the crash of OZ214 at SFO.
According to pilots, they set the autothrottle ON after approaching angle is at their way to landing and recoginzed them lower than course from the view of PAPI. It says that immediately the captain manually full back the lever to increase engine power for moments but in vain.
There is big discrepencies between media and NTSB reports that Debora Hersman says the pilots in Asiana are premature at action and too late to accelerated the plane since they did not make on time.
By the way there are a couple of occasions that the thrust goes to idle when the autothrottle mode is engaged.
Autothrottle problems suspected in Heathrow 777 crash ? The Register
American Airlines Boeing 777 suffers autothrottle problem : Heathrow Airport News Stories
What is the turth? Hidding and covering?
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This bit is a bit concerning, if true:
"Earlier, federal safety officials said one of the pilots on the flight initially told the crew not to evacuate passengers after it crashed.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Wednesday that people did not begin fleeing the aircraft until 90 seconds later when a fire erupted. At that point, the doors were opened and escape slides were inflated.
Officials say the delay occurred as the pilot checked with the tower at the airport."
90 secs is eternity when faced with a potential airplane fire. Is this sort of delay typical?
Looking at the footage, the flight deck shouldn't have had much doubt as to how much damage was likely.
"Earlier, federal safety officials said one of the pilots on the flight initially told the crew not to evacuate passengers after it crashed.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Wednesday that people did not begin fleeing the aircraft until 90 seconds later when a fire erupted. At that point, the doors were opened and escape slides were inflated.
Officials say the delay occurred as the pilot checked with the tower at the airport."
90 secs is eternity when faced with a potential airplane fire. Is this sort of delay typical?
Looking at the footage, the flight deck shouldn't have had much doubt as to how much damage was likely.
Last edited by ross_M; 11th Jul 2013 at 05:57.
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I read the CC contacted the pilots re evac and were told wait
as the pilots were talking to ATC. A few minutes later one of
the CC contacted the Pilots to say they had fire on ?? side
and were then told to evacuate.
Have seen it in 2 reports but can't vouch for the accuracy.
as the pilots were talking to ATC. A few minutes later one of
the CC contacted the Pilots to say they had fire on ?? side
and were then told to evacuate.
Have seen it in 2 reports but can't vouch for the accuracy.
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Just a side note:
This report says: "The flying pilot had the day off before the flight began. He says he got eight hours of sleep, and came to the airport six hours before the flight."
What was he doing at the airport six hours before the flight?
When I'm scheduled for such a long flight, I'm not going to show up that early!
This report says: "The flying pilot had the day off before the flight began. He says he got eight hours of sleep, and came to the airport six hours before the flight."
What was he doing at the airport six hours before the flight?
When I'm scheduled for such a long flight, I'm not going to show up that early!
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Someone said something about shoulder belts for pax in business class???! Is there such a thing in comercial planes? I have never come across an airliner that has this feature for pax. Only CC have a harness, four point one. While flight decks come with 5 point harnesses.
I wont comment on pilots performance but as far as CC is concerned their performance was excellent from I could gather. Unplanned crash landing, emergency evacuation, they managed to get everybody out despite some of them being incapacitated or trapped, structural damage of aircraft, smoke.... Cant think of a worse enviroment to evacuate a full plane. Excellent job guys!
LE: just on the news now, 3 cabin crew have been ejected from the plane on crash landing. That means they were down 5 crew for the evacuation, as we already know 2 were trapped by the slides. So, really good job ladies. Quite remarkable in fact getting everybody out before the flames and smoke would have definately killed lots of pax.
I wont comment on pilots performance but as far as CC is concerned their performance was excellent from I could gather. Unplanned crash landing, emergency evacuation, they managed to get everybody out despite some of them being incapacitated or trapped, structural damage of aircraft, smoke.... Cant think of a worse enviroment to evacuate a full plane. Excellent job guys!
LE: just on the news now, 3 cabin crew have been ejected from the plane on crash landing. That means they were down 5 crew for the evacuation, as we already know 2 were trapped by the slides. So, really good job ladies. Quite remarkable in fact getting everybody out before the flames and smoke would have definately killed lots of pax.
Last edited by skytrax; 11th Jul 2013 at 06:37.
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I read the CC contacted the pilots re evac and were told wait
as the pilots were talking to ATC. A few minutes later one of
the CC contacted the Pilots to say they had fire on ?? side
and were then told to evacuate.
Have seen it in 2 reports but can't vouch for the accuracy.
as the pilots were talking to ATC. A few minutes later one of
the CC contacted the Pilots to say they had fire on ?? side
and were then told to evacuate.
Have seen it in 2 reports but can't vouch for the accuracy.
Other bit from todays breifing that I found surprising was that some of the slides deployed inside the cabin upon the second impact, when the aircraft 'finished' it's pirouette. I think it was discussed here that we figured it happened when they attempted to open doors that wouldn't open all the way, thus inside deployment.
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skytrax
Someone said something about shoulder belts for pax in business class???! Is there such a thing in comercial planes? I have never come across an airliner that has this feature for pax. Only CC have a harness, four point one. While flight decks come with 5 point harnesses.
I wont comment on pilots performance but as far as CC is concerned their performance was excellent from I could gather. Unplanned crash landing, emergency evacuation, they managed to get everybody out despite some of them being incapacitated or trapped, structural damage of aircraft, smoke.... Cant think of a worse enviroment to evacuate a full plane. Excellent job guys!
Someone said something about shoulder belts for pax in business class???! Is there such a thing in comercial planes? I have never come across an airliner that has this feature for pax. Only CC have a harness, four point one. While flight decks come with 5 point harnesses.
I wont comment on pilots performance but as far as CC is concerned their performance was excellent from I could gather. Unplanned crash landing, emergency evacuation, they managed to get everybody out despite some of them being incapacitated or trapped, structural damage of aircraft, smoke.... Cant think of a worse enviroment to evacuate a full plane. Excellent job guys!
Photo of one of the flight attendants piggybacking a passenger away from the jet.
http://photo.hankooki.com/newsphoto/...7091823300.jpg
Hankooki.com is site of one of major daily paper in S Korea.
Last edited by dba7; 11th Jul 2013 at 06:30.
Someone said something about shoulder belts for pax in business class???! Is there such a thing in comercial planes?
In business class cabins, where the lie-flat seats are not facing fore and aft, but at an angle of about 30 degrees, there are various seat-belt arrangements to cope with restraining passengers.
On Cathay Pacific, the seat belt has a padded section over the passenger's forward-facing hip and a modifed buckle assembly.
On a flight last year, on Thai or Singapore (I cannot remember which), there was a separate diagonal shoulder strap, which had to be fastened for take-off and landing.
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After reading through 82 pages, a couple of thoughts.
The amazing real time video shows the 777 scooting along the surface of the bay for some time before impacting the sea wall. Because conditions were CAVOK, it is possible that glassy water near that sea wall in the lee of the prevailing wind could have made it more difficult to assess how low they were getting.
Also, Pipeliner in comment number 1483 quotes studies that show 3 to 5% of approaches made by transport aircraft are unstable, and of these, only 5% actually go around!
And another thought. Listening to ATC in the US both as pax and as IR pilot,I feel that one who is not a native speaker would have to be bold indeed to say those useful words "Say again slowly!" and if asked to fly too fast for comfort, "Unable!"
The amazing real time video shows the 777 scooting along the surface of the bay for some time before impacting the sea wall. Because conditions were CAVOK, it is possible that glassy water near that sea wall in the lee of the prevailing wind could have made it more difficult to assess how low they were getting.
Also, Pipeliner in comment number 1483 quotes studies that show 3 to 5% of approaches made by transport aircraft are unstable, and of these, only 5% actually go around!
And another thought. Listening to ATC in the US both as pax and as IR pilot,I feel that one who is not a native speaker would have to be bold indeed to say those useful words "Say again slowly!" and if asked to fly too fast for comfort, "Unable!"
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@india four 2
I see. Thanks, wasnt aware of that as I havent been in any of those seats when travelled with Cathay or Singapore. I have seen the padded belts but not a harness for pax.
I understand that Asiana had some seats in J class with some sort of harness! Is that right?
Added on my previous post as well this info.
LE: just on the news now, 3 cabin crew have been ejected from the plane on crash landing. That means they were down 5 crew for the evacuation, as we already know 2 were trapped by the slides. So, really good job ladies. Quite remarkable in fact getting everybody out before the flames and smoke would have definately killed lots of pax.
I see. Thanks, wasnt aware of that as I havent been in any of those seats when travelled with Cathay or Singapore. I have seen the padded belts but not a harness for pax.
I understand that Asiana had some seats in J class with some sort of harness! Is that right?
Added on my previous post as well this info.
LE: just on the news now, 3 cabin crew have been ejected from the plane on crash landing. That means they were down 5 crew for the evacuation, as we already know 2 were trapped by the slides. So, really good job ladies. Quite remarkable in fact getting everybody out before the flames and smoke would have definately killed lots of pax.
Last edited by skytrax; 11th Jul 2013 at 06:44.
"What was he doing at the airport six hours before the flight?"
My previous airline was Chinese, not Korean but I suspect many of the practices are similar.
It is not uncommon to see crew in "the office" 5-6 hours before departing on a long haul flight, lurking around "building relationships". I once saw a captain in the admin office in uniform one morning "speaking to captain xxx" with a late evening departure for Europe that same day.
Oh, and its not uncommon to do a 4 hour simulator session, then have 2 hours off then PIC a long haul flight.
My previous airline was Chinese, not Korean but I suspect many of the practices are similar.
It is not uncommon to see crew in "the office" 5-6 hours before departing on a long haul flight, lurking around "building relationships". I once saw a captain in the admin office in uniform one morning "speaking to captain xxx" with a late evening departure for Europe that same day.
Oh, and its not uncommon to do a 4 hour simulator session, then have 2 hours off then PIC a long haul flight.
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5-6 hrs before STD at the crew facilities is extreme to me. Especially for a long haul flight. I accept maybe 3 hrs as it was a training flight and needed extra time for briefing but anything above that does not make any sense to me.
Just a side note:
This report says: "The flying pilot had the day off before the flight began. He says he got eight hours of sleep, and came to the airport six hours before the flight."
What was he doing at the airport six hours before the flight? When I'm scheduled for such a long flight, I'm not going to show up that early!
This report says: "The flying pilot had the day off before the flight began. He says he got eight hours of sleep, and came to the airport six hours before the flight."
What was he doing at the airport six hours before the flight? When I'm scheduled for such a long flight, I'm not going to show up that early!
Don't be surprised.
According to pilots, they set the autothrottle ON after approaching angle is at their way to landing and recoginzed them lower than course from the view of PAPI. It says that immediately the captain manually full back the lever to increase engine power for moments but in vain.
Your Politician doesn't know what he is talking about. The trainer said he told the LHS pilot to "Pull back" meaning on the CONTROL COLUM to correct the low flight path, while expecting the Auto-throttle to correct the speed.
There is no evidence that anything to do with aircraft did anything except what it was supposed to do.