Glasgow Airport - JET 2 smoke in cockpit - emergency services called
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I think Jean may have actually saved lives. No disrespect intended, but I'm convinced she is fairly normal passenger, if such a beast exists. Us clever ones in the know fully realise how "stupid" she is but the reality is, she and her friends pay our wages. So we as system have, unintentionally, let her down. She thought there should be a slide so that she could get off the wing, but there wasn't. But what else was she unclear about? Unless we ask, we'll never know but I think we should ask the "Jeans" what we have to do so that they are better equipped in an emergency. However, we have to be honest about this process. If research shows that a briefing makes no difference, then we should stop doing them but maybe, just maybe, we should do some things a little differently in the future - to help the Jeans of this world.
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Piltdown
You make a good point but you have an uphill task in trying to educate those who don't want and can't be bothered to take a few seconds to learn how to leave an aircraft in an emergency.
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I flew twice with Jet2 recently, sitting in the overwing exit row. Cabin crew did no personalised exit row briefing on either sector, and on one occasion failed to check for/clear obstructing baggage prior to landing.
Didn't see one other passenger read the safety card. The cabin crew struggled to get some passengers to stop chatting during the briefing (to their credit they tried)
In my experience bmi baby crew routinely did the overwing briefing, and would pause the safety PA if passengers were obviously not paying attention.
The quality of the PA system in some of the classic 737s leaves a lot to be desired, which doesn't help.
Didn't see one other passenger read the safety card. The cabin crew struggled to get some passengers to stop chatting during the briefing (to their credit they tried)
In my experience bmi baby crew routinely did the overwing briefing, and would pause the safety PA if passengers were obviously not paying attention.
The quality of the PA system in some of the classic 737s leaves a lot to be desired, which doesn't help.
Shame on many of you
To all of you who have dissed passengers on this flight, to all of you who have called real people stupid, or any other similar term, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Passengers should have respect for the crews, but crews should have respect for their passengers too, as someone posted earlier. That way everyone stays in a job and good businesses will grow.
Think again : what would YOUR mother or father do, if they are over 60?
Incidentally, as self confessed SLF who worked airside for a number of years, I don't know either if an A319/20/21 has a slide from the wing emergency exits. I knew the B737 series didn't. And I usually pay attention to briefings, having read extensively about aviation safety.
When people are out of their comfort zone, panicked, stressed, they do things that are often not rational. Are you the same people who called the AF447 crew stupid? Were they stupid?
Kudos to the crew, for everyone got off. Manchester taught (hopefully) all crews that it could have been a different outcome, very quickly. The attitude of some folks on here is appalling. Though as a Glaswegian, the humour made me laugh too
Passengers should have respect for the crews, but crews should have respect for their passengers too, as someone posted earlier. That way everyone stays in a job and good businesses will grow.
Think again : what would YOUR mother or father do, if they are over 60?
Incidentally, as self confessed SLF who worked airside for a number of years, I don't know either if an A319/20/21 has a slide from the wing emergency exits. I knew the B737 series didn't. And I usually pay attention to briefings, having read extensively about aviation safety.
When people are out of their comfort zone, panicked, stressed, they do things that are often not rational. Are you the same people who called the AF447 crew stupid? Were they stupid?
Kudos to the crew, for everyone got off. Manchester taught (hopefully) all crews that it could have been a different outcome, very quickly. The attitude of some folks on here is appalling. Though as a Glaswegian, the humour made me laugh too
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OnTime, I would also expect passengers to have respect for themselves and other passengers. I would suggest that they do this by knowing what to do, how to do it, where to go and how to get there.
That way they do not put other lives at risk. Including mine.
Would you be singing the same song if it had turned out that lovely old Jean had been responsible for trapping people, or sending them back, inside a burning aircraft to die?
That way they do not put other lives at risk. Including mine.
Would you be singing the same song if it had turned out that lovely old Jean had been responsible for trapping people, or sending them back, inside a burning aircraft to die?
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Poor old Jean...
If she'd only read the safety card, she'd have known there were fuel tanks in the wing! She clearly didn't think at all! Any fule knows, it's clearly there on the safety card, that in the event of emergency the crew will remember to extend the flaps, that the wing isn't a safe place to stay because it's full of fuel, that right there where it says 'NO STEP' is where you're meant to jump off, and that a jump into pitch darkness of unknown height is perfectly safe. She clearly didn't think at all!
Alternatively, she did think. And she came to the wrong answer. She probably thought something was wrong, that the slide she had expected to be there wasn't; that in this day and age "you're meant to jump and hope" probably wasn't the recommended procedure, so something must be wrong and maybe she thought she would be helping the people behind by saying "this clearly isn't right, try another way."
Of course she was wrong. But it doesn't make her an idiot, it makes her a human. If it's human for a professionally trained pilot to have a fit of the quivers because the captain got seasick, then we should probably accept the passengers are at least as susceptible to moments of imperfection.
Maybe the solution is not to blame the SLF for being thick, maybe it's to ask if there is anything we can do to help them make better decisions. And if nobody listens to the safety briefing (something I suspect is massively overstated by cabin crew desperate to convince themselves their calling is higher than just selling scratchcards) then probably best to accept the briefings don't work and come up with something better, because moaning about it isn't going to change anything more than wishing pilots could recognise a stall will.
If she'd only read the safety card, she'd have known there were fuel tanks in the wing! She clearly didn't think at all! Any fule knows, it's clearly there on the safety card, that in the event of emergency the crew will remember to extend the flaps, that the wing isn't a safe place to stay because it's full of fuel, that right there where it says 'NO STEP' is where you're meant to jump off, and that a jump into pitch darkness of unknown height is perfectly safe. She clearly didn't think at all!
Alternatively, she did think. And she came to the wrong answer. She probably thought something was wrong, that the slide she had expected to be there wasn't; that in this day and age "you're meant to jump and hope" probably wasn't the recommended procedure, so something must be wrong and maybe she thought she would be helping the people behind by saying "this clearly isn't right, try another way."
Of course she was wrong. But it doesn't make her an idiot, it makes her a human. If it's human for a professionally trained pilot to have a fit of the quivers because the captain got seasick, then we should probably accept the passengers are at least as susceptible to moments of imperfection.
Maybe the solution is not to blame the SLF for being thick, maybe it's to ask if there is anything we can do to help them make better decisions. And if nobody listens to the safety briefing (something I suspect is massively overstated by cabin crew desperate to convince themselves their calling is higher than just selling scratchcards) then probably best to accept the briefings don't work and come up with something better, because moaning about it isn't going to change anything more than wishing pilots could recognise a stall will.
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The only question I have is why on BA the window blinds are allowed to be down at landing and take off, as many U.S. airlines allow.
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SLFandProud...
...is perfectly correct in everything he says.
It is, frankly, chilling to see the number of responses from those claiming to be aviation professionals who consider that the appropriate response to a system that is clearly failing on human factors grounds is to call the people involved "cretins," "morons," "drunks" and other offensive (and outrageous) appellations.
Such "professionals" -- and the profoundly unprofessional attitude they represent -- are a greater menace to aviation safety than an entire aircraft-load of Mrs Walkers could ever be.
It is, frankly, chilling to see the number of responses from those claiming to be aviation professionals who consider that the appropriate response to a system that is clearly failing on human factors grounds is to call the people involved "cretins," "morons," "drunks" and other offensive (and outrageous) appellations.
Such "professionals" -- and the profoundly unprofessional attitude they represent -- are a greater menace to aviation safety than an entire aircraft-load of Mrs Walkers could ever be.
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SLFAndProud ...
Thank SLFAndProud for your posts.
I've flown a lot, have a technical background and a strong interest in Aviation. I would hope I am considerably more informed than the normal punter.
And yet to this day it has never occurred to me that the over-wing exits may not have slides off the wing on some [or all] aircraft.
If I was sitting on the wing and I heard the word 'evacuate' I would be out that nearest door with my family also - I don't think I would have time to re-acquaint myself with the exact provisioning of escape slides vis a vis exit doors.
Some of the attitudes displayed on this thread about passenger behaviour are really offensive, trolling almost. - I hope to god they are not coming from flight crew members.
p.s. Furthermore, as a expat-Glaswegian I find the comment about the shoplifting alarm going off to absolutely called for and hilarious.
I've flown a lot, have a technical background and a strong interest in Aviation. I would hope I am considerably more informed than the normal punter.
And yet to this day it has never occurred to me that the over-wing exits may not have slides off the wing on some [or all] aircraft.
If I was sitting on the wing and I heard the word 'evacuate' I would be out that nearest door with my family also - I don't think I would have time to re-acquaint myself with the exact provisioning of escape slides vis a vis exit doors.
Some of the attitudes displayed on this thread about passenger behaviour are really offensive, trolling almost. - I hope to god they are not coming from flight crew members.
p.s. Furthermore, as a expat-Glaswegian I find the comment about the shoplifting alarm going off to absolutely called for and hilarious.
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I've just had a look online at some 737 safety cards. One of unknown vintage for Jet2 seems clear enough about the route but a card from an unknown airline shows the flap shaded yellow, the same colour as the slides.
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Now that EZY & RYR are selling extra legroom seats (which just happen to be by the emergency exits!) there is no check on the fitness of people buying such seats. I have twice recently (on RYR) sat next to [apparently] 'unfit' people who would not have been capable of operating the emergency exit - but they have paid for them so the Cabin Crew appear to be reluctant to move them.
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SLF and proud
I wonder what your reaction would be if your family had been stopped from getting out of an aircraft that was burning because of someone who had failed to take any notice of the safety brief and card ?
Avoiding personal responsabiltity for their actions is what you are advocating, if it was just the likes of Jean who would come to harm because they did not take in the safety brief than I would say nothing but under different circumstances her lack of attention to the safety brief could have resulted in the death of tens of people.......... I am sure that she is not the only one on that aircraft who ignored the safety information that was presented to them but she is the one who stuck her head above the media parapet and proved that she had not taken in the fact that you should slide down the flaps ( that he crew had set to 40).
It would seem that you have not taken in the way to escape from the overwing exit and have proven this by saying that you have to jump off the wing in to a dark area, you should of course slide down the flaps and the area is illuminated by the aircraft emergency lights...........I await another uninformed reply.
Avoiding personal responsabiltity for their actions is what you are advocating, if it was just the likes of Jean who would come to harm because they did not take in the safety brief than I would say nothing but under different circumstances her lack of attention to the safety brief could have resulted in the death of tens of people.......... I am sure that she is not the only one on that aircraft who ignored the safety information that was presented to them but she is the one who stuck her head above the media parapet and proved that she had not taken in the fact that you should slide down the flaps ( that he crew had set to 40).
It would seem that you have not taken in the way to escape from the overwing exit and have proven this by saying that you have to jump off the wing in to a dark area, you should of course slide down the flaps and the area is illuminated by the aircraft emergency lights...........I await another uninformed reply.
Last edited by A and C; 22nd Oct 2012 at 08:08.
A & C
We have to assume the pilot has set flap to 40, which as events proved last week, they may not have done. ( Antalya)
The point is, if only people did what they were supposed to do.
I am not referring to this particular Jet2 incident, however it is clear that, we see pilots not setting flaps 40, cabin crew not doing personal exit briefings, allowing unfit people to sit at exits because they have paid for it, unclear safety cards, & inaudible PAs.
IMHO the whole safety brief needs a revamp, with less emphasis on the life jacket & more on the getting out. Do we need a lifejacket brief for a flight not even going over water?
We have to assume the pilot has set flap to 40, which as events proved last week, they may not have done. ( Antalya)
The point is, if only people did what they were supposed to do.
I am not referring to this particular Jet2 incident, however it is clear that, we see pilots not setting flaps 40, cabin crew not doing personal exit briefings, allowing unfit people to sit at exits because they have paid for it, unclear safety cards, & inaudible PAs.
IMHO the whole safety brief needs a revamp, with less emphasis on the life jacket & more on the getting out. Do we need a lifejacket brief for a flight not even going over water?
Last edited by Mr A Tis; 22nd Oct 2012 at 08:35.
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Dimming to preserve night vision is far from ridiculous. Night vision repair takes a finite time and the brighter the previously light the longer night adaption takes
Best results are if the cabin lights prior to the event are of the same brilliance as the inner outer emergency lights
Best results are if the cabin lights prior to the event are of the same brilliance as the inner outer emergency lights
Then of course you get the faintly ridiculous Qantas Domestic policy of dimming the cabin lights in broad daylight yet turning them to bright for engine start and once the engines are stopped on the tarmac. It was suggested dimming the lights during daytime saves fuel by using less generator load!
In fact it is mindless stupidity by whoever writes the policy manual used by the cabin staff.
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If poor old Jean had taken one or two minutes out of her ever so important life to read and absorb the safety card she wouldn't have needed to think. She would have known where to go and she would have [I]known[/] there was no slide. To not know that, my dear chap, is stupid.
But she obviously didn't want that responsibility, for herself or others.
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Running in thank you for providing the uninformed comment.
Mr a Tis you do have a point about the human factors but no matter how much the industry improves the way that safety information is communicated there is a high proportion of passengers who will choose to ignore it, perhaps this is a head in the sand reaction due to a fear of flying.
Lord Spandex I am in total agreement !
Mr a Tis you do have a point about the human factors but no matter how much the industry improves the way that safety information is communicated there is a high proportion of passengers who will choose to ignore it, perhaps this is a head in the sand reaction due to a fear of flying.
Lord Spandex I am in total agreement !
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We have to assume the pilot has set flap to 40, which as events proved last week, they may not have done. ( Antalya)
Maxred I am not referring to Jet2 at Glasgow in that post, but the B738 in Antayla last week.
Yes we are talking human factors here, both for crew & SLF.
From many of the posts it's the aviation professionals that seem to be burying their heads in the sand.
Yes we are talking human factors here, both for crew & SLF.
From many of the posts it's the aviation professionals that seem to be burying their heads in the sand.