4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
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eagerbeaver1 (who used to work for Ryanair):
Quote:"I was often dissappointed (sic) that Ryanair didn't plan ahead a bit when poor weather was forecast"
But YOU were Ryanair. Who was supposed to make the decisions, some new lads and lasses straight out of university now working in Ops? Surely as a captain, that is exactly what you should have been doing?
Quote:"I was often dissappointed (sic) that Ryanair didn't plan ahead a bit when poor weather was forecast"
But YOU were Ryanair. Who was supposed to make the decisions, some new lads and lasses straight out of university now working in Ops? Surely as a captain, that is exactly what you should have been doing?
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So just to clarify are you saying that if you report 15 minutes early that you would make this your FDP start time? If the FO had reported 30 minutes early would you make that his report time?
So yes, if the time given is always too short, I do believe if you report early, it should count. The time they do give is counted. If you report early without any need since the standard time is sufficient for most of the flights, it is your own choice.
FDP is defined as a period in which you are required to do work for your company. Showing up 15 minutes early to make enough time to do your work seems to me to fall under that definition.
In my last job (which went on for nearly 20 years) we also had a "45 minutes before and 15 minutes after" requirement and it was perfectly adequate.
In actual practice, most of us reported early for the crack (craic) in the crewroom was wonderful and it truly was a social occasion. Some of the youngsters used to come in an hour early just to listen to guys who had flown the Super Constellation and also to catch up with friends.
All of this was in the middle of the night.
On the other hand, I knew one guy who would arrive in the staff car park 90 minutes before departure and would then sit in his car freezing his b*lls off in the middle of winter so that he could report exactly 45 minutes before rather than come inside and have a hot coffee.
I will give you two guesses as to which of the two was more fun to fly with.
In actual practice, most of us reported early for the crack (craic) in the crewroom was wonderful and it truly was a social occasion. Some of the youngsters used to come in an hour early just to listen to guys who had flown the Super Constellation and also to catch up with friends.
All of this was in the middle of the night.
On the other hand, I knew one guy who would arrive in the staff car park 90 minutes before departure and would then sit in his car freezing his b*lls off in the middle of winter so that he could report exactly 45 minutes before rather than come inside and have a hot coffee.
I will give you two guesses as to which of the two was more fun to fly with.
Last edited by JW411; 20th Aug 2012 at 13:55.
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I am not saying you can' t come earlier and I am not saying if you do come earlier, it's always on the boss' time.
If 45 minutes works for you and your colleagues, fine, that is how it should be, but when time and time again the planned time of 45 minutes is not enough to do your work, and such comments have been made in this topic regarding the briefing time at RYR, the time you do come earlier, does count as worktime (for me and at least for the law in my country).
I am usually 15 minutes early and sometimes I start the briefing "too early", but not because the time I do have on my roster isn't enough. I use the extra time to chat with my colleagues.
Saying it is normal to come 15 to 30 minutes earlier, because your boss doesn't give you enough time to do your job opens the door to less or no time planned before the flight leaves. Your working hours start at pushback, the time you need to safely prebrief your flight doesn't count.
I don't think that is what we, as professionals, would like to see, now is it?
The law states, as would common sense, that you should have enough time to properly and safely plan your flight. If not, delay the flight, but an employer can't ask time and time again to come in your own time to do the work they should pay you for (and add to the FDP).
If 45 minutes works for you and your colleagues, fine, that is how it should be, but when time and time again the planned time of 45 minutes is not enough to do your work, and such comments have been made in this topic regarding the briefing time at RYR, the time you do come earlier, does count as worktime (for me and at least for the law in my country).
I am usually 15 minutes early and sometimes I start the briefing "too early", but not because the time I do have on my roster isn't enough. I use the extra time to chat with my colleagues.
Saying it is normal to come 15 to 30 minutes earlier, because your boss doesn't give you enough time to do your job opens the door to less or no time planned before the flight leaves. Your working hours start at pushback, the time you need to safely prebrief your flight doesn't count.
I don't think that is what we, as professionals, would like to see, now is it?
The law states, as would common sense, that you should have enough time to properly and safely plan your flight. If not, delay the flight, but an employer can't ask time and time again to come in your own time to do the work they should pay you for (and add to the FDP).
Last edited by the_stranger; 20th Aug 2012 at 14:52.
. Even in Malta.
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One thing that puzzles me is that Commanders @RYANAIR need to write down an explanation why Extra Fuel has been ordered.
I know, same thing in some US carriers.
But what is behind that?
I know, same thing in some US carriers.
But what is behind that?
Last edited by hetfield; 20th Aug 2012 at 17:22.
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Thirteen pages of comment on a trio of RA flights where the pilots would appear to have prepared their flight plan, taken local factors into consideration and landed at their alternate airport without incident. Meanwhile, an AF crew that can't reach its alternate due to lack of fuel merits barely a page and a half ... ? Methinks some posters here lack a sense of proportion. 
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So why doesn't MOL lobby EASA to reduce its minimum fuel requirements? Every flight could operate as a 'refile in flight'. Going to PMI with BCN as ALTN. File and fuel to BCN and then refile/replan to PMI at TOD for BCN. NO expected delays. no Wx problems etc. RYR would save a fortune if they did this on all their EU flights. There'd be a lot of MayDays as crews were landing with 30mins fuel, but hey, what the hell. No crashes and everybody safe.
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Wrong. Even in Malta.
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CelticRambler: You highlight a big big difference here yourself. We have an airline in a situation where basically nothing happens, forecasted thunderstorms in Madrid on a july evening which ends up with 3 aircrafts in a Mayday situation,
and on the other side, you have an airline, who due to fast-changing situation while inflight in a very unstable environment takes measures to preserve the security of their pax and who gets its solutions cut short due to unpredictable ATC of a country in war...Those flights (like a lot of respectable airlines) have the merit not to be uncontrolled missiles once launched. You can still communicate with them and give the best of your info, like a coup, an unsecured airport area or thunderstorms ahead leading colleagues to be short on fuel...:P
Back to the topic: although captains responsabilities, if 3 of them have the same problem in the situation I guess one can call it a systemic problem and not purely blame the individuals. Also, reading that preflight planning is more or less paperwork shows exactly what pressurizing your employees bring : loss of priority management. If somebody constantly nags you everyday with the same crap with the heavy power to do whatever they want with your life, then quite quickly people will think more about staying under the radar rather than taking required measures which would lead to more pressure,things to justify and consequences.
I guess the lies/word twisting to the extreme that has more or less been demonstrated with the minutes of holding not being in the hold just reflects once again the mentality of management. Never to be blamed, no shame, no respect,pathetic pride.
and on the other side, you have an airline, who due to fast-changing situation while inflight in a very unstable environment takes measures to preserve the security of their pax and who gets its solutions cut short due to unpredictable ATC of a country in war...Those flights (like a lot of respectable airlines) have the merit not to be uncontrolled missiles once launched. You can still communicate with them and give the best of your info, like a coup, an unsecured airport area or thunderstorms ahead leading colleagues to be short on fuel...:P
Back to the topic: although captains responsabilities, if 3 of them have the same problem in the situation I guess one can call it a systemic problem and not purely blame the individuals. Also, reading that preflight planning is more or less paperwork shows exactly what pressurizing your employees bring : loss of priority management. If somebody constantly nags you everyday with the same crap with the heavy power to do whatever they want with your life, then quite quickly people will think more about staying under the radar rather than taking required measures which would lead to more pressure,things to justify and consequences.
I guess the lies/word twisting to the extreme that has more or less been demonstrated with the minutes of holding not being in the hold just reflects once again the mentality of management. Never to be blamed, no shame, no respect,pathetic pride.
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Well, there is an issue of having not enough time to brief the preflight on some occasions. At least where I fly. Everything is streamlined to the minute.
But if I need more time, I will simply take it. Hold the PAX at the gate, sort out technical issues or what ever it is. Brief longer, if there is a need for it - usually I try not to be as boring as some of my colleagues, but there might be some special occasion.
And then we board late, we take off late, and we get there late.
No problem. Noone bothers me, and FDP still starts. So sometimes the company will have to call a standby to cover the last legs.
Still, noone bothers me or writes me a letter.
Usually time is enough but tight, but this just might happen.
But if I need more time, I will simply take it. Hold the PAX at the gate, sort out technical issues or what ever it is. Brief longer, if there is a need for it - usually I try not to be as boring as some of my colleagues, but there might be some special occasion.
And then we board late, we take off late, and we get there late.
No problem. Noone bothers me, and FDP still starts. So sometimes the company will have to call a standby to cover the last legs.
Still, noone bothers me or writes me a letter.
Usually time is enough but tight, but this just might happen.
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Ryanair's Steve McNamara made an interesting statement in the Belfast Telegraph.
I don't know if the rules have changed but it used to be that you required enough fuel to get to destination, hold for 30 mins, route to alternate and have enough to hold there for 30 mins, then land. If that is still the case and these flights had each had already 70 mins of extra flying (doesn't say if that was in the hold) then does that not indicate that these flights started off with more than the minimum? To me it sounds as though they did have some extra but circumstances meant they ate into that extra and had no choice but to declare Mayday. My question, therefore, is why didn't they divert earlier? Were they getting duff info about the possibility of Madrid clearing?
Ryanair spokesman Stephen McNamara has denied its fuel policy was responsible for the mayday calls.
He said the mayday calls occurred in extraordinary circumstances after more than 70 minutes of extra flight time.
"This was an extremely unusual situation. These aircraft, which had already flown for three hours to get to Madrid, found that Madrid could not let them in, so they diverted to Valencia.
"They already had 70 minutes of extra flying when they realised they had to, as per the regulation, land. They know they have to land with 30 minutes of contingency fuel remaining," Mr McNamara said.
He said the mayday calls occurred in extraordinary circumstances after more than 70 minutes of extra flight time.
"This was an extremely unusual situation. These aircraft, which had already flown for three hours to get to Madrid, found that Madrid could not let them in, so they diverted to Valencia.
"They already had 70 minutes of extra flying when they realised they had to, as per the regulation, land. They know they have to land with 30 minutes of contingency fuel remaining," Mr McNamara said.
I don't know if the rules have changed but it used to be that you required enough fuel to get to destination, hold for 30 mins, route to alternate and have enough to hold there for 30 mins, then land.
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contigency fuel roughly 7 mins
diversion fuel to Valencia I guess is about 35 mins
final reserve 30 mins
total 72mins
with a very rough calculation you can end up having 70 mins of extra flight time with no more than minimum fuel...word twisting
extra flight time is not a regulatory word....extra flight time compared to what? minimum Fplan fuel? or extra flight time to normally burnt fuel on this route?(and then, per regulations you get your 70 mins anyway from offblock)
Just another statement to say that obviously, it's bad luck, bad luck happening only to FR and to three of their aircraft in a row on the same evening. Believing it is a lot of disrespect to other airlines to my taste. They try to say that they save so much fuel, are so efficient, and so unlucky. Basically they say that all the BA,LH,AF crew...etc etc are a bunch of losers who are that bad that they're not able to do the same, so arrogant.
This sort of statement means absolutely nothing, are carefully chosen to mislead people. I think nobody should buy this. If they were so large on fuel then why don't they say simply how many tons (or maybe just kgs) they were above Fplan fuel at offblock.
If it's 70 mins of extra fuel, you're talking 2800kgs on top on the 737 if I'm not wrong. 110mins before mayday in the hold either in MAD or VLC...are you kidding me? Why not 5 hours... Please correct me but if you're not tankering that's a huge amount of extra fuel even for any legacy airline. I don't know anybody from any airline who would fly medium haul on 737/320 with that amount of extra fuel,even on snowy days it starts to be a very very large amount of extra fuel....so that seems a little strange. Although it COULD be true if all of them were tankering. Now, even if it would be true, somebody needs to explain how you burn 70 mins of fuel in not holding on the radar tracks that somebody showed earlier on. And if you hold, you burn your fuel till the last drop...Did the three of them had a major fuel leak simultaneously or what?
The problem when you put **** under the carpet is that it keeps smelling...
diversion fuel to Valencia I guess is about 35 mins
final reserve 30 mins
total 72mins
with a very rough calculation you can end up having 70 mins of extra flight time with no more than minimum fuel...word twisting
extra flight time is not a regulatory word....extra flight time compared to what? minimum Fplan fuel? or extra flight time to normally burnt fuel on this route?(and then, per regulations you get your 70 mins anyway from offblock)
Just another statement to say that obviously, it's bad luck, bad luck happening only to FR and to three of their aircraft in a row on the same evening. Believing it is a lot of disrespect to other airlines to my taste. They try to say that they save so much fuel, are so efficient, and so unlucky. Basically they say that all the BA,LH,AF crew...etc etc are a bunch of losers who are that bad that they're not able to do the same, so arrogant.
This sort of statement means absolutely nothing, are carefully chosen to mislead people. I think nobody should buy this. If they were so large on fuel then why don't they say simply how many tons (or maybe just kgs) they were above Fplan fuel at offblock.
If it's 70 mins of extra fuel, you're talking 2800kgs on top on the 737 if I'm not wrong. 110mins before mayday in the hold either in MAD or VLC...are you kidding me? Why not 5 hours... Please correct me but if you're not tankering that's a huge amount of extra fuel even for any legacy airline. I don't know anybody from any airline who would fly medium haul on 737/320 with that amount of extra fuel,even on snowy days it starts to be a very very large amount of extra fuel....so that seems a little strange. Although it COULD be true if all of them were tankering. Now, even if it would be true, somebody needs to explain how you burn 70 mins of fuel in not holding on the radar tracks that somebody showed earlier on. And if you hold, you burn your fuel till the last drop...Did the three of them had a major fuel leak simultaneously or what?
The problem when you put **** under the carpet is that it keeps smelling...
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French radio reported this morning that "the Spanish" (didn't catch which subsection) are seeking to have RA's permission to operate in Spanish airspace withdrawn for a period of three years, supposedly on the basis of this event being the last straw. In the light of the leaked ATC recording noted early in this thread and the very persistence of this story for several weeks, is there any chance that maybe - just maybe! 
- this situation was more controlled than it seems?
- this situation was more controlled than it seems?
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Not Quite. The Spanish Government have called for an enquiry into the incident and have stated that there is a possibility following the results of the enquiry that Ryanair could have its license revoked. Since Spain in general and the southern autonomous communities in particular are desperate for the revenue from the tourism generated by low cost flights, such an action seems very unlikely.