4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
From an ATC angle I find multimple fuel Maydays rather chilling too. As airports start scheduling to maximum runway capacity there is often no slack in the system to make up delays. We are expected to sterilise the runway for about 5 minutes for the arrival of a fuel Mayday - increasing the chance of further fuel emergencies. Multiple simultaneous Maydays would perversely seem to delay each other - maybe we then have to break the rules and reduce sterile runway time, but that tends towards giving the Maydays no special treatment.
Airlines seem to be increasingly arriving with minimal holding fuel. Throw unexpected weather (and reduced landing rate) in to the mix and you get days like I have had where the special treatment of one Mayday has a domino effect so that you get multiple emergencies and practically no special treatment allowed for any of them. It is particularly uncomfortable to be on my side of the radio, but you can really hear the fear in a pilot's voice as they are approaching with insufficient fuel to go around in LVPs.
One day the regualtors and airlines will have to justify why they have done nothing about the reports of close calls when it does not end with relief.
Airlines seem to be increasingly arriving with minimal holding fuel. Throw unexpected weather (and reduced landing rate) in to the mix and you get days like I have had where the special treatment of one Mayday has a domino effect so that you get multiple emergencies and practically no special treatment allowed for any of them. It is particularly uncomfortable to be on my side of the radio, but you can really hear the fear in a pilot's voice as they are approaching with insufficient fuel to go around in LVPs.
One day the regualtors and airlines will have to justify why they have done nothing about the reports of close calls when it does not end with relief.
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Dan - indeed - a point I made a while back about the ripple effect of a MAYDAY. It is inevitable and must be very uncomfortable for ATC.
By the way, crews should ALWAYS have enough fuel to perform a g/a and second approach - in or out of LVPs - they may well then be into PAN or MAYDAY because of the legislation, but certainly in LVPs they should always have approaching at least an hour's worth of fuel in tanks at g/a at destination unless the circumstances are extreme
A little like the cross-filing of LGW/LHR by Big airways, where you could have a/c going round at LGW to divert to LHR with a/c going round at LHR to divert to LGW. Loads of fun there for ATC!
By the way, crews should ALWAYS have enough fuel to perform a g/a and second approach - in or out of LVPs - they may well then be into PAN or MAYDAY because of the legislation, but certainly in LVPs they should always have approaching at least an hour's worth of fuel in tanks at g/a at destination unless the circumstances are extreme
A little like the cross-filing of LGW/LHR by Big airways, where you could have a/c going round at LGW to divert to LHR with a/c going round at LHR to divert to LGW. Loads of fun there for ATC!
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The forecast I referred to was the one you introduced.
This is getting very silly. If you want a 'professional discussion' behave that way. Of course there is a 30 mins holding requirement at alternate. If you understood the rules you would know that.Your previous post said "and I did not have the fuel to continue and hold/divert," which is what I was trying to clarify for you.There is NO requirement for a hold at destination in the fuel load in JAROPS. Yes, I know it is 'semantics' but they, unfortunately for some, are the way adults communicate. If you repeatedly use the wrong/inappropriate words, what are we to do? Take you seriously? I would have expected with your self-proclaimed immense managerial/supervisory experience you would have understood the need for clear language?
Regarding what happened to the RYs, you are confusing planning with events, which is surprising in view of your claimed experience. We have a well-known expression this side of the pond with which you may not be familiar - 'sh!t happens'. It looks like it did..
I appreciate you are new here. There are plenty of threads in this forum where the more general issues you are querying have been discussed, and I would suggest they are a better place that this on this particular 'MAYDAY avalanche event. Yes, I agree planning for a min of 30 at alternate is not wise in that weather. I say again, I do NOT think the RY crews did plan that. It happened that way.
Originally Posted by S7600
:
AT LEAST tempo holding for the forecast I provided, if not a full alternate.
AT LEAST tempo holding for the forecast I provided, if not a full alternate.
Regarding what happened to the RYs, you are confusing planning with events, which is surprising in view of your claimed experience. We have a well-known expression this side of the pond with which you may not be familiar - 'sh!t happens'. It looks like it did..
I appreciate you are new here. There are plenty of threads in this forum where the more general issues you are querying have been discussed, and I would suggest they are a better place that this on this particular 'MAYDAY avalanche event. Yes, I agree planning for a min of 30 at alternate is not wise in that weather. I say again, I do NOT think the RY crews did plan that. It happened that way.
Squak - What is a 'full' alternate???
Is there such a thing as a half alternate?
Its a bit like people calling the tower and saying 'fully ready' - you are either ready or you are not ready. An alternate is either acceptable or not acceptable!
Is there such a thing as a half alternate?
Its a bit like people calling the tower and saying 'fully ready' - you are either ready or you are not ready. An alternate is either acceptable or not acceptable!
Looking at the big picture, there was forecast poor weather at a busy airport. Many, maybe even most crews took extra fuel but the severity of the conditions meant that approaches and landings were not possible at times and delays grew rapidly beyond the capability of some to absorb.
Quite a few flights diverted to alternates, creating congestion at these airports as well.
After all the aircraft stopped moving, there had been no injuries, no damage and from what we can see, compliance with all the regulations as far as legal fuel policy is concerned. No dead-stick landings off-airport, no flameouts on the taxiway, just a few urgency and/or distress calls on the radio to preempt the above.
The system seems to work!
Quite a few flights diverted to alternates, creating congestion at these airports as well.
After all the aircraft stopped moving, there had been no injuries, no damage and from what we can see, compliance with all the regulations as far as legal fuel policy is concerned. No dead-stick landings off-airport, no flameouts on the taxiway, just a few urgency and/or distress calls on the radio to preempt the above.
The system seems to work!
Sorry KTT - dyslexia rules, KO? #'312
Wings, I'm aware of at least 2 aircraft that landed with less than statutory final fuel reserves on this day.
Instead of the wake-up call this day (arguably) should be, it may be brushed aside and fuel policies amended by other operators aiming to maintain a competitive business.
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KTT - I think (semantically
) the meaning was what WE call an alternate as opposed to the 'good weather forecast so I can plan without a (full) alternate" iaw JAROPS.
) the meaning was what WE call an alternate as opposed to the 'good weather forecast so I can plan without a (full) alternate" iaw JAROPS.
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I, in 23000 hrs have never landed with less then required fuel. I have deverted when dispatch said to keep holding but never did when fuel was at minimums. Yes, I have landed at minimum fuel but going to the alternate was not going to be any better..
As far as regulatory changes I'm afraid I have no real answers as I don't know if it's quite as simple as that.
You could divert early to get to an alternate with reserve plus some holding fuel - problem is, that puts you at the back of the queue behind those who are arriving close or at reserves. Priority only returns once you're in the same boat, so you haven't really gained much.
That difficult-to-define quality 'airmanship' comes into focus in these kind of situations. Running out of fuel in the hold or on the way to somewhere else is not a good option, so it comes right at the end of the list. Reserve fuel is there to be used if necessary to ensure a positive outcome if things have conspired badly against you. You don't initially plan to dig into your precious last half-hour but if unknown/unforeseen factors have come into play, you might have to.
It's also about being able to smoothly fall back to the next option, which may require abandoning some SOPs or contravening day-to-day regulations. When airports become 'full', it normally means they have run out of regular stands and maybe some taxiways. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't land there on a MAYDAY, just that parking might be difficult. Even if there's something stuck on the runway, it might be possible to use the remaining length to stop in. Taxiways themselves can be used as auxiliary runways in extremis. When the poo really hits the extractor, you may have to ignore ATC and just tell them what you're doing. Being mentally prepared to take unorthodox action should you need to is vital, if the remaining options involve a crash...
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My understanding is that a Captain is in command of his aircraft for all phases of his duty. That includes the planning and safe conduct of the aircraft first and foremost. If the Captain fails to plan correcty taking into account weather etc, ( in this case TS at their destination), through incompetence, negligence or coercion by company policy, then perhaps it's time to look for a new form of employment in another industry. Outside a mechanical failure, there is no excuse for fuel shortage whether you fly a C172 or an A380. Remember the old adage, Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Yet again ! - How long until the aviation authorities actually take some kind of action ?
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Storm in a teacup.
737 pressurisation problems are known to happen occasionally. Any airline with a large fleet of these will have experienced this more than once.
Loss of cabin pressure and the use of masks are part of every passenger safety briefing.
This is an event which all crews are specifically trained to handle, they did what was required and the outcome was, as usual, a success.
Just part of life's rich tapestry. Think of it as a wakeup call to passengers to actually pay attention to the safety briefing.
737 pressurisation problems are known to happen occasionally. Any airline with a large fleet of these will have experienced this more than once.
Loss of cabin pressure and the use of masks are part of every passenger safety briefing.
This is an event which all crews are specifically trained to handle, they did what was required and the outcome was, as usual, a success.
Just part of life's rich tapestry. Think of it as a wakeup call to passengers to actually pay attention to the safety briefing.
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Just a laugh
As I stated before, I have flown FR 100+ times and have nothing to complain on, you just have to know what you buy.
In that spirit I must share this anecdote about MOL:
Arriving in a hotel in Dublin, he went to the bar and asked for a pint of draught Guinness. The barman nodded and said, "That will be one euro please, Mr. O’Leary."
Somewhat taken aback, O'Leary replied, "That's very cheap," and handed over his money.
"Well, we try to stay ahead of the competition", said the barman. "And we are serving free pints every Wednesday evening from 6 until 8. We have the cheapest beer in Ireland"
"That is remarkable value" Michael comments
"I see you don't seem to have a glass, so you'll probably need one of ours. That will be three euros please."
In that spirit I must share this anecdote about MOL:
Arriving in a hotel in Dublin, he went to the bar and asked for a pint of draught Guinness. The barman nodded and said, "That will be one euro please, Mr. O’Leary."
Somewhat taken aback, O'Leary replied, "That's very cheap," and handed over his money.
"Well, we try to stay ahead of the competition", said the barman. "And we are serving free pints every Wednesday evening from 6 until 8. We have the cheapest beer in Ireland"
"That is remarkable value" Michael comments
"I see you don't seem to have a glass, so you'll probably need one of ours. That will be three euros please."
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"Ah, Michael, I see you using a bar stool; that'll be €3. What about a bear mat for only €1? And don't even think about a free pee." "But don't forget we do have the cheapest beer in Ireland."
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