4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
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And if there was they would do absolutely nothing about it.
What would be the point of complaining anyway? Ryanair pilots routinely report well before STD-45 despite only being paid block times.
What would be the point of complaining anyway? Ryanair pilots routinely report well before STD-45 despite only being paid block times.
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The -45min. reporting time is the minimum time you should report, does not mean you cannot come in a little earlier? And by the way the paper work is divided up between capt-f/o. Just hope the computer is working!
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The -45min. reporting time is the minimum time you should report, does not mean you cannot come in a little earlier? And by the way the paper work is divided up between capt-f/o. Just hope the computer is working!
I wonder if you would count those 15/30 minutes towards your max FDP and does RYR do that? How about when on minimum rest?
And I never divide my preflight planning between the capt and the FO, I do it together with the other one. Fortunately in my company a minimum time is decided upon together with the union so it is usually more than enough. IN the rare case it isn't, I can take extra time, I might have to tell them why I left late to explain away the delaycode, but it is always accepted as a valid reason.
Pre flight briefings are important, so is enough time to do it...
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ONLY FACTS COUNT
If these were the two associated callsigns on 26/07/2012...
RYR9VR aborted approach to LEMD at 20:12 at around 8000ft, right turn to 270°, then the one circle in the West at FL160, then climbed to FL240, landed behind LAN A340 at LEVC at 21:19UTC
No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
RYR5389 aborted approach to LEMD at 20:14 at around 8000ft, right turn to the Southwest, then the one wide circle in the West at ca. FL120, then climbed to FL240, landed at LEVC 21:25UTC
No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
The third one that may have been affected was RYR2054. Aborted approach to LEMD at 20:10 at around 5500ft, right turn to the Southwest°, then the one circle in the West at FL150, then climbed to FL280, landed at LEVC at 21:09UTC
Other traffic diverting LEMD to LEVC were LAN705, EZY1419, BEL3731, IBE36MY, AEA6138, IBS2491, however it does not look like a mess. Only, LAN705 overtook the preceeding RYR and EZY on approach, so most likely some reason to rush, too.
RYR9VR aborted approach to LEMD at 20:12 at around 8000ft, right turn to 270°, then the one circle in the West at FL160, then climbed to FL240, landed behind LAN A340 at LEVC at 21:19UTC
No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
RYR5389 aborted approach to LEMD at 20:14 at around 8000ft, right turn to the Southwest, then the one wide circle in the West at ca. FL120, then climbed to FL240, landed at LEVC 21:25UTC
No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
The third one that may have been affected was RYR2054. Aborted approach to LEMD at 20:10 at around 5500ft, right turn to the Southwest°, then the one circle in the West at FL150, then climbed to FL280, landed at LEVC at 21:09UTC
Other traffic diverting LEMD to LEVC were LAN705, EZY1419, BEL3731, IBE36MY, AEA6138, IBS2491, however it does not look like a mess. Only, LAN705 overtook the preceeding RYR and EZY on approach, so most likely some reason to rush, too.
Last edited by threemiles; 19th Aug 2012 at 09:07.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I'll confess I've not read all the previous pages of the thread, so apologies if it's been explained.
If you rock up at MAD and there's TS's all over the place, airport shut, no-one making approaches no EAT's / "delay not determined", then it's entirely understandable to make the decision, early, to go to your alternate.
What I don't understand is the 60+ minutes holding. Why would you hold, to the point where you would be unable to return to your original destination, and then continue to hold to the point where you declare an emergency and land (legally) with final reserve? What was the thought process / rationale / plan in the hold? If you've flown a couple of hundred miles to your alternate there's going to be a decision point in the hold when you will be unble to return to your destination (if it's now miraculously CAVOK with "no delay" (at MAD...?) and in this case that would be long before the point of MayDay. I simple don't understand why they burnt so "low" in the hold when they were effectively now committed to the alternate. Something does not add up here.
Have I missed something?
Just skimmed through and I see BOAC has come to a similar conclusion. The above traces are very enlightening. No holding at all at VLC????
Poor use of English in the following - easily leads to misunderstanding.
-that's straight from RYR's website regarding this (with my bold emphasis). It's time from diversion initiation at MAD not holding over VLC - so case closed! 
If you rock up at MAD and there's TS's all over the place, airport shut, no-one making approaches no EAT's / "delay not determined", then it's entirely understandable to make the decision, early, to go to your alternate.
What I don't understand is the 60+ minutes holding. Why would you hold, to the point where you would be unable to return to your original destination, and then continue to hold to the point where you declare an emergency and land (legally) with final reserve? What was the thought process / rationale / plan in the hold? If you've flown a couple of hundred miles to your alternate there's going to be a decision point in the hold when you will be unble to return to your destination (if it's now miraculously CAVOK with "no delay" (at MAD...?) and in this case that would be long before the point of MayDay. I simple don't understand why they burnt so "low" in the hold when they were effectively now committed to the alternate. Something does not add up here.
Have I missed something?
Just skimmed through and I see BOAC has come to a similar conclusion. The above traces are very enlightening. No holding at all at VLC????
Poor use of English in the following - easily leads to misunderstanding.
Having held over Valencia for 50 mins, 68 mins and 69 mins after their scheduled landing time in Madrid,
Last edited by A4; 19th Aug 2012 at 09:21.
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I've just skimmed through this thread. All I can say is thank goodness things were not like that in the run up to my retirement in 1998. Captains were captains and were given a degree of autonomy. I really feel for you people today.
My son is about to join the industry. He made the decision himself to become a pilot: there was no push from his old dad. I wish him and his future colleagues the very best - they will need it.
My son is about to join the industry. He made the decision himself to become a pilot: there was no push from his old dad. I wish him and his future colleagues the very best - they will need it.
Last edited by jackharr; 19th Aug 2012 at 09:07.
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I wonder if all these RYR were on the same ATC freq at the same time. After 1 called Mayday did it cause a ripple effect amongst the others?
From the Mail on Sunday today:
"Two Virgin Atlantic passenger jets issued emergency alerts on the same day this year because they were running out of fuel. Air Traffic controllers dealt with a total of four low-fuel emergencies at Stansted Airport, Essex, that day - including a Mayday call.
Two were Virgin 747s, which can carry 451 passengers each. They needed priority landing after flying from America, according to an investigation by the Exaro website.
Virgin Atlantic denied that the planes - named Jersey Girl and Hot Lips - issued maydays. They had been diverted from Gatwick because of severe winds. A passenger on Jersey Girl said: 'To see so many fire engines on landing made me realise it could have been bad'.
On the same day, an Embraer 190, which can carry 114 passengers, was diverted to Southampton and put out a mayday over fuel.
The revelation comes as Spanish authorities investigate Ryanair for three low-fuel maydays in Valencia.
There have been at least 28 cases of UK passenger airlines declaring low-fuel emergencies in the last two years while flying to airports in Britain, the Civil Aviation Authority has revealed. Three were mayday calls made in the last five months of this year. Destinations included Heathrow, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham".
Bearing in mind that Ryanair aircraft are registered in Ireland, I presume that none of their aircraft were involved?
"Two Virgin Atlantic passenger jets issued emergency alerts on the same day this year because they were running out of fuel. Air Traffic controllers dealt with a total of four low-fuel emergencies at Stansted Airport, Essex, that day - including a Mayday call.
Two were Virgin 747s, which can carry 451 passengers each. They needed priority landing after flying from America, according to an investigation by the Exaro website.
Virgin Atlantic denied that the planes - named Jersey Girl and Hot Lips - issued maydays. They had been diverted from Gatwick because of severe winds. A passenger on Jersey Girl said: 'To see so many fire engines on landing made me realise it could have been bad'.
On the same day, an Embraer 190, which can carry 114 passengers, was diverted to Southampton and put out a mayday over fuel.
The revelation comes as Spanish authorities investigate Ryanair for three low-fuel maydays in Valencia.
There have been at least 28 cases of UK passenger airlines declaring low-fuel emergencies in the last two years while flying to airports in Britain, the Civil Aviation Authority has revealed. Three were mayday calls made in the last five months of this year. Destinations included Heathrow, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham".
Bearing in mind that Ryanair aircraft are registered in Ireland, I presume that none of their aircraft were involved?
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JW411:"A passenger on Jersey Girl said: 'To see so many fire engines on landing made me realise it could have been bad'."
Reminds me of a similar conversation at Heathrow. Fire engines, ambulances, etc - lights flashing - were positioned beside the runway for a landing aircraft.
Unknown pilot (but from a known airline): "Are they expecting trouble on 28 Right?"
It was reassuring to know that that particular airline employed such observant aircrew
Reminds me of a similar conversation at Heathrow. Fire engines, ambulances, etc - lights flashing - were positioned beside the runway for a landing aircraft.
Unknown pilot (but from a known airline): "Are they expecting trouble on 28 Right?"
It was reassuring to know that that particular airline employed such observant aircrew
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I'm not familiar with flight trace. very interesting. Those who posted it give relevant timings and say "no holding 60mins anywhere." How does it take 1 hr to fly from MAD to VLC? A delay must have been there somewhere to use up the time.
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Interesting stuff
This never ceases to amaze me.
As a captain for Ryanair, what is your primary responsibility?
Is it or Is it not the safety of the aircraft and passengers? and should this responsibility include prudent decision making regarding fuel, routes, weather, alternates etc?
I know there are a million different contracts of employment, and probably another one being printed as I type this, but are'nt all captains paid to do the same job?
CEO's and Senior Management in airlines, have tried to fly aircraft from desks before....Its very unsafe.....
League tables my ar%e......
As a captain for Ryanair, what is your primary responsibility?
Is it or Is it not the safety of the aircraft and passengers? and should this responsibility include prudent decision making regarding fuel, routes, weather, alternates etc?
I know there are a million different contracts of employment, and probably another one being printed as I type this, but are'nt all captains paid to do the same job?
CEO's and Senior Management in airlines, have tried to fly aircraft from desks before....Its very unsafe.....
League tables my ar%e......
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Work out the time to follow that route. Allow an emergency (LAN) at VLC. See what you get?
Guys and girls, the WHOLE point of the PAN/MAYDAY thing is to avoid being dicked around (especially in Spain where Spanish traffic will of course take precedence). You shout the appropriate words and suddenly you get the priority you want. Simples. Job done.
Guys and girls, the WHOLE point of the PAN/MAYDAY thing is to avoid being dicked around (especially in Spain where Spanish traffic will of course take precedence). You shout the appropriate words and suddenly you get the priority you want. Simples. Job done.
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Michael O'Leary's side of the story
In his all-too-imitable style, given to today's Sunday Independent. Here are some of the jucier quotations:-
Full text here:-
O'Leary rejects bullying claims in wake of fuel mayday calls - National News - Independent.ie
The Ryanair chief defended monthly league tables outlining how much fuel each pilot was using.
'Absolutely. We keep a very tight hold of all waste in Ryanair....It's the silly season and the Olympics are over so let's talk and write a lot of ****e about Ryanair planes running out of fuel.
Do we publish weekly fuel performance tables? Absolutely. We do it to try and improve fuel efficiency.'...
A Ryanair memorandum to pilots dated February 2010, seen by the Sunday Independent, states: 'The routine carriage of 300 kg of extra is discouraged: our PLOGS [Pilots' Logs/flight plan] are generally "fat" with fuel....If we all carry 300 kg of fuel on each sector we burn an extra 7.5 kg per hour unnecessarily.
With an average sector length of two hours, that is 19,500 kg wasted across the fleet daily: the spot price for jet fuel in Rotterdam market on January 8, 2010 was $2.17 per US gallon. Simple maths works out that the extra 300 kg cost the company US $5m (€4.05m) per year.'
Speaking to the Sunday Independent, Mr O'Leary accused IALPA's spokesman Evan Cullen of 'scaremongering'...The Aer Lingus Pilots' association [sic] have a go at Ryanair? There's a surprise. You get an idiot on the nine o'clock news who says, 'without fuel airplanes can't fly.' In actual fact he is wrong. They are called gliders but facts have never got in the way of an IALPA false claim,' he said....
'The inference that Europe's largest airline with a 28-year unblemished safety record would be stopped by some Spanish halfwit is beyond even a joke,' he said angrily.
He said that he didn't allow the Irish Airline Pilots' Association anywhere near Ryanair 'partly because when their lips are moving they are talking horses**t.'
'Absolutely. We keep a very tight hold of all waste in Ryanair....It's the silly season and the Olympics are over so let's talk and write a lot of ****e about Ryanair planes running out of fuel.
Do we publish weekly fuel performance tables? Absolutely. We do it to try and improve fuel efficiency.'...
A Ryanair memorandum to pilots dated February 2010, seen by the Sunday Independent, states: 'The routine carriage of 300 kg of extra is discouraged: our PLOGS [Pilots' Logs/flight plan] are generally "fat" with fuel....If we all carry 300 kg of fuel on each sector we burn an extra 7.5 kg per hour unnecessarily.
With an average sector length of two hours, that is 19,500 kg wasted across the fleet daily: the spot price for jet fuel in Rotterdam market on January 8, 2010 was $2.17 per US gallon. Simple maths works out that the extra 300 kg cost the company US $5m (€4.05m) per year.'
Speaking to the Sunday Independent, Mr O'Leary accused IALPA's spokesman Evan Cullen of 'scaremongering'...The Aer Lingus Pilots' association [sic] have a go at Ryanair? There's a surprise. You get an idiot on the nine o'clock news who says, 'without fuel airplanes can't fly.' In actual fact he is wrong. They are called gliders but facts have never got in the way of an IALPA false claim,' he said....
'The inference that Europe's largest airline with a 28-year unblemished safety record would be stopped by some Spanish halfwit is beyond even a joke,' he said angrily.
He said that he didn't allow the Irish Airline Pilots' Association anywhere near Ryanair 'partly because when their lips are moving they are talking horses**t.'
O'Leary rejects bullying claims in wake of fuel mayday calls - National News - Independent.ie
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Around the time I retired my airline was being split up. Cutting a long story short, I might easily have finished up flying for Ryanair had I not been able to retire when I did. I know full well that I would not have survived with Ryanair for more than a year. I would have spoken up on some issue or other and have been summarily dismissed.
I (or more correctly my partner) tried recently to book a flight from England to Ireland. It was impossible (from where we live) to avoid Ryanair. The on-line booking process was tortuous and there seemed to be no way of opting out the “voluntary insurance cover” (if there was, the process was well hidden). So we went to the local Travel Agent in King’s Lynn. Ryanair will not deal with with travel agents. So Stella will instead be travelling by rail and ferry. Serves you right Ryanair. You have lost a customer for being so bloody awkward.
I (or more correctly my partner) tried recently to book a flight from England to Ireland. It was impossible (from where we live) to avoid Ryanair. The on-line booking process was tortuous and there seemed to be no way of opting out the “voluntary insurance cover” (if there was, the process was well hidden). So we went to the local Travel Agent in King’s Lynn. Ryanair will not deal with with travel agents. So Stella will instead be travelling by rail and ferry. Serves you right Ryanair. You have lost a customer for being so bloody awkward.
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Stranger/fireflybob: The paper work is exactly that.....pre flight planning and dividing the work means one prints the paper work, one looks at any other pertinent information and then together pre flight planning is discussed and then on to the crew brief. Nothing strange about this procedure and in generally is accomplished within the 45 mins. It would seem that some of you suggest that this fuel problem was due to a lack of pre flight planning and airmanship on behalf of these FR crews which I am sure is not the case. So, are we to believe that a 4 engined A/C flames out an engine taxing in after a long range flight, or that the numerous accounts of similar minimum fuel and other so called emergency's are due to a lack of pre flight preparation and briefings. I find that a bit far fetched and a lack of respect for our colleagues at FR!
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'without fuel airplanes can't fly.' In actual fact he is wrong. They are called gliders
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In all the time I worked for Ryanair, I diverted due to poor weather 6/7 times in 4.5 years as a Captain and I never heard a sniff from "Management".
This culture of bullying is prevalent in industrial relations, but not flight operations (in my opinion). However if Ryanair stopped being such a bunch of gyppo's and installed ACARS it would make things so much easier for everybody to share information and plan.
I can imagine what a total mess it was in Madrid that night having been there myself many many times. I was often dissappointed that Ryanair didn't plan ahead a bit when poor weather was forecast and perhaps fly to a different destination or even cancel the flight. In particular I am referring to snow in Eastern Europe and lets not forget the shambles when we had that terrible snow here!
Don't be too quick to judge - it could be one of us next.
Fireflybob - Paperwork - Semantics. xx
This culture of bullying is prevalent in industrial relations, but not flight operations (in my opinion). However if Ryanair stopped being such a bunch of gyppo's and installed ACARS it would make things so much easier for everybody to share information and plan.
I can imagine what a total mess it was in Madrid that night having been there myself many many times. I was often dissappointed that Ryanair didn't plan ahead a bit when poor weather was forecast and perhaps fly to a different destination or even cancel the flight. In particular I am referring to snow in Eastern Europe and lets not forget the shambles when we had that terrible snow here!
Don't be too quick to judge - it could be one of us next.
Fireflybob - Paperwork - Semantics. xx
Just to clarify I was not suggesting that Ryanair pilots skimp on "pre flight planning" - from my 5 years in the Company I know that the huge majority will come in at least 15 mins before the report time (and yes I was one of them) because as professional pilots they realise that, in fact, 45 minutes is hardly sufficient to do the job properly, especially on multi sector days etc.
Depone, whilst in essence I agree that it is, to an extent, semantics but the labels we put on certain activities (or even people LOL) have a big influence on our mindset and thinking. The dictionary definition of paperwork is "Work involving the handling of reports, letters, and forms." I suppose you could argue that pre flight planning is work so there you have it!
So just to clarify are you saying that if you report 15 minutes early that you would make this your FDP start time? If the FO had reported 30 minutes early would you make that his report time?
Depone, whilst in essence I agree that it is, to an extent, semantics but the labels we put on certain activities (or even people LOL) have a big influence on our mindset and thinking. The dictionary definition of paperwork is "Work involving the handling of reports, letters, and forms." I suppose you could argue that pre flight planning is work so there you have it!
Quote:
I wonder if you would count those 15/30 minutes towards your max FDP and does RYR do that?
If I've understood you correctly the answer is yes and yes.
I wonder if you would count those 15/30 minutes towards your max FDP and does RYR do that?
If I've understood you correctly the answer is yes and yes.
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Ops Manual Part A
Is the company not in breach of the OPS Manual Part A, with regard to interfering in the decision making by the Commander, with regard deciding fuel?
Just a suggestion......
Just a suggestion......