AF 447 report out
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Simple stall recovery procedures were learned in the first five hours in all aircraft. Why do so many of you excuse this poor airmanship as ok?
Looking closely at the Flight Control Laws and how best to clearly prompt the crew into performing the appropriate corrective actions, is something the industry can deal with. Exactly how you deal with the psychology involved in getting those messages through to a crew that isn't receptive, is another matter.
In the beginning ....
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Simple stall recovery procedures were learned in the first five hours in all aircraft.
Last edited by jcjeant; 22nd May 2013 at 23:51.
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No they wouldn't and all aircraft fly the same, just at different speeds. If they lost their AS, they still had altimiters and attitude indicators available so why did they soar up 3,000 ft and do a full stall and keep the side stick all the way back if they were professional pilots? I know you want to protect these pilots but would you do that?
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All pilots are required to recover from a stall and not how to get into one. It is in basic training so professional pilot don't need to know this? OK, my airspeed goes away in an Airbus and it is ok to pull full back on the side stick and soar 3,000 ft into a stall and keep full back side stick until you hit the Atlantic Ocean? WTF??
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You would simply move it forward and eliminate the problem.
Hopefully the recommendation “training programmes” will be more extensive.
Consequently, the BEA recommends that:
€EASA ensure the integration, in type rating and recurrent training programmes, of exercises that take into account all of the reconfiguration laws. The objective sought is to make its recognition and understanding easier for crews especially when dealing with the level of protection available and the possible differences in handling characteristics, including at the limits of the flight envelope; [Recommendation FRAN-2012-039]
€EASA ensure the integration, in type rating and recurrent training programmes, of exercises that take into account all of the reconfiguration laws. The objective sought is to make its recognition and understanding easier for crews especially when dealing with the level of protection available and the possible differences in handling characteristics, including at the limits of the flight envelope; [Recommendation FRAN-2012-039]
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Do you think that if these three pilots were flying a Cessna 172 going in a stall .. they would complete their flight by a crash in the sea?
No they wouldn't and all aircraft fly the same, just at different speeds. If they lost their AS, they still had altimiters and attitude indicators available so why did they soar up 3,000 ft and do a full stall and keep the side stick all the way back if they were professional pilots? I know you want to protect these pilots but would you do that?
So Rober-Bonin-Dubois will going in a stall with a Cessna 172 and will recover it but they will not recover the A330 from stall
Or .. you write that "all aircraft fly the same just a different speed" (and I will add myself ..different cruise altitude)
So why all good in a Cessna .. and tragedy in a A330 ?
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Let me explain this just one more time. All aircraft have a stall speed, Cessnas about 45 knots, Airliners about 110 knots. You have an attitude indicator to make sure you don't pull up into a stall so keep it about 2 degrees nose up max in both planes. Keep adequate power above cruise power and you will be fine. If you choose to pull full back you won't. Most competent pilots will understand this in their 5th hour. We all did.
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Originally Posted by dozy
The aircraft was oriented such that the vertical airflow was fouling the pitot tubes - I suspect it would also have been sufficient to give false AoA readings.
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Hi,
@bubbers44
Before you had write (in answer to my question if in a Cessna 172 .. Bonin-Robert-Dubois will finish the flight in the sea in case of stall ) "no they wouldn't"
So my question "why they will recover from stall in a Cessna 172 and not in a A330 ? " stay valid and not answered
Or .. why in stall they will pull full back in a A330 and not when in a Cessna 172 ?
Or .. do you think that in a Cessna 172 .. or any other plane they had made the same this day .. as full pull back ?
The rest of your answer :
I understand perfectly
@bubbers44
Before you had write (in answer to my question if in a Cessna 172 .. Bonin-Robert-Dubois will finish the flight in the sea in case of stall ) "no they wouldn't"
So my question "why they will recover from stall in a Cessna 172 and not in a A330 ? " stay valid and not answered
Or .. why in stall they will pull full back in a A330 and not when in a Cessna 172 ?
Or .. do you think that in a Cessna 172 .. or any other plane they had made the same this day .. as full pull back ?
The rest of your answer :
All aircraft have a stall speed, Cessnas about 45 knots, Airliners about 110 knots. You have an attitude indicator to make sure you don't pull up into a stall so keep it about 2 degrees nose up max in both planes. Keep adequate power above cruise power and you will be fine. If you choose to pull full back you won't. Most competent pilots will understand this in their 5th hour. We all did.
Last edited by jcjeant; 23rd May 2013 at 22:35.
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All aircraft stall recovery is using forward controls so it is quite simple to recover in a Cessna or Airbus doing the same thing. Reduce angle of attack so you aren't stalled any more. Quite simple.
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Not that it matters but ....
If I had an automobile that was designed to not exceed the national highway speed limit, regardless of accelerator position, I'd simply hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and trust the automation to handle the rest. I'd continue to do so, especially when passing a radar-equipped police cruiser that does not pursue me with a speeding ticket in hand. (I'd assume I was not speeding)
That's a rather silly example of how this non-pilot thinks this unfortunate accident progressed to disaster. IMO, the pilots that night assumed they were no longer stalled because they were without the usual stall notification (below 60 knots) so trusted the envelope protection to only apply the elevator deflection (in lieu of full back stick) that would keep them just below the stall AoA.
God, I hope that makes sense. I am finding this long thread to be educational in many ways, please continue. (Back to my hole)
That's a rather silly example of how this non-pilot thinks this unfortunate accident progressed to disaster. IMO, the pilots that night assumed they were no longer stalled because they were without the usual stall notification (below 60 knots) so trusted the envelope protection to only apply the elevator deflection (in lieu of full back stick) that would keep them just below the stall AoA.
God, I hope that makes sense. I am finding this long thread to be educational in many ways, please continue. (Back to my hole)
Last edited by md80fanatic; 24th May 2013 at 01:00.
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Unfortunately these two pilots allowed the plane to zoom 3,000 feet into a full stall then continued to hold full back stick until impact with the ocean. After over 3 minutes of holding full back nothing could save this flight. We need to hire smarter pilots that know how to fly.
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Unfortunately not the first time...very similar one here on MD82
West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
thus reducing their maximum performance. With the anti-ice system on, the highest altitude at which the overloaded aircraft could fly - without stalling - was reduced to only 31,900 feet. The captain noticed the reduction in engine power, but he couldn't realize the source of the problem. Therefore, he started a rapid descent, as a precaution. At that time, the airspeed was already near stall speed and the autopilot had kept a nose-up attitude to maintain a constant height. When the airliner was pummeled by a sudden updraft, it finally entered a stall condition and the crew mishandled it. Although the CVR picked up the First officer correctly diagnosing the situation as a stall and attempting twice to communicate this to the captain, the captain was likely confused by the unusual behaviour of the engines, due to the anti-ice system and probably the air flow disruption caused by the updraft. The captain thought he was struggling with an engine flameout, which he told the first officer to communicate to the ground controller, and did not recognise the deep stall situation; he then mishandled the stall by maintaining nose-up attitude, which further decreased speed and deepened the stall until the plane eventually crashed.
West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
thus reducing their maximum performance. With the anti-ice system on, the highest altitude at which the overloaded aircraft could fly - without stalling - was reduced to only 31,900 feet. The captain noticed the reduction in engine power, but he couldn't realize the source of the problem. Therefore, he started a rapid descent, as a precaution. At that time, the airspeed was already near stall speed and the autopilot had kept a nose-up attitude to maintain a constant height. When the airliner was pummeled by a sudden updraft, it finally entered a stall condition and the crew mishandled it. Although the CVR picked up the First officer correctly diagnosing the situation as a stall and attempting twice to communicate this to the captain, the captain was likely confused by the unusual behaviour of the engines, due to the anti-ice system and probably the air flow disruption caused by the updraft. The captain thought he was struggling with an engine flameout, which he told the first officer to communicate to the ground controller, and did not recognise the deep stall situation; he then mishandled the stall by maintaining nose-up attitude, which further decreased speed and deepened the stall until the plane eventually crashed.
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We got the first DC9 Super80's and had problems with captain climbing too slow or too high. It was so frustrating but as an FO you can only do so much. We were falling out of our 350 altitude one day and were told you have a PSA 727 at 330 5 miles in front of you opposite direction. I responded but we couldn't maintain altitude. We crossed over him at FL340 and they immediately cleared us down but heard the irritation in his voice. I told him you are too slow but he kept climbing.
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I told him you are too slow but he kept climbing.
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Hi,
Ironic that hundreds of messages in this thread concern the stall .. how to get there and how to get out .. while three pilots have never uttered the word
The word stall is only given by the synthetic voice alarm
These three pilot did not know that the aircraft was in stall
So the important point to discuss is why they did not know
Ironic that hundreds of messages in this thread concern the stall .. how to get there and how to get out .. while three pilots have never uttered the word
The word stall is only given by the synthetic voice alarm
These three pilot did not know that the aircraft was in stall
So the important point to discuss is why they did not know
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So the important point to discuss is why they did not know
All aircraft have a stall speed, Cessnas about 45 knots, Airliners about 110 knots.
Many pilots understand the stall to be a speed problem, it is not !
So if you think stall is a speed issue, and you know your speed indication is invalid, it is very, very easy (and maybe it is the natural behavior of humans to seek for the most easy answer in a panic situation) to assume that the stall warning in that case is invalid as well. Especially if the noise of the airflow at high AoA (supersonic around the cockpit) makes you believe that there is enough speed and your indication is still invalid.
keep the side stick all the way back
Last edited by Volume; 24th May 2013 at 07:38.
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With respect as a non pilot, with about 8 hours of flying training, if the evidence is that you are in a stall, you put the nose down, not up.
Now the evidence may have not been there.
Anxiety, information overload, is not an excuse.
Evidence.
I reckon they buggered up, and I ain't a pilot.
Now the evidence may have not been there.
Anxiety, information overload, is not an excuse.
Evidence.
I reckon they buggered up, and I ain't a pilot.
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For what it’s worth, my take on it is that PF’s references to “crazy speed” and his persistent holding nose up suggested to some that he confused mach buffet with pre- stall buffet, and high noise with high speed rather than high AoA, which kept him thinking all the way down that he had an overspeed problem. I have seen no other explanation which fits the facts.
And thank you Volume. There is indeed no such thing as stall speed - only stall AoA. I've many time stalled aeroplanes at high IAS, and flown them unstalled at zero IAS.
Had anyone taught these guys to fly?