Sooo, You Want to Fly for Korean Airlines Do You?
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Not so many years ago, a largish Middle Eastern airline stumbled upon the fact (in farcical circumstances) that one Korean flight attendant was doing all the emergency procedures renewal exams for many if not most of the Korean flight attendants in the company.
The Korean FAs would simply swap IDs and the girl supposedly doing her SEPs would do the flight for the one girl who knew all the answers, and so it went on, day after day for quite a while until one day one of the girls operating a flight with the exam girl's ID blithely announced at the crew briefing that although her name on the GD was XXX, it was actually YYY, so please call me YYY. Only then did someone note that the face on the ID wasn't the face in the briefing room.
Having said that, I found most of the Korean girls in that same largish ME airline quite pleasant to fly with (willing to travel, a different demographic/personality profile than the ones who work at Korean perhaps?) and almost without exception, NOT someone to try to outdrink at the bar. Those ladies could handle their grog like a wharfie.
The Korean FAs would simply swap IDs and the girl supposedly doing her SEPs would do the flight for the one girl who knew all the answers, and so it went on, day after day for quite a while until one day one of the girls operating a flight with the exam girl's ID blithely announced at the crew briefing that although her name on the GD was XXX, it was actually YYY, so please call me YYY. Only then did someone note that the face on the ID wasn't the face in the briefing room.
Having said that, I found most of the Korean girls in that same largish ME airline quite pleasant to fly with (willing to travel, a different demographic/personality profile than the ones who work at Korean perhaps?) and almost without exception, NOT someone to try to outdrink at the bar. Those ladies could handle their grog like a wharfie.
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Wassupman said:
Your own command of the English language is deficient. I call 'BS' on this.
At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shame
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Your own command of the English language is deficient. I call 'BS' on this.
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...with the exception of the young generation educated in the US.
have good English Mr PAL and don't look down at you as if you're
a piece of snot. I might ask them next time they're on board.
What is even more amazing to me is that DoD (U. S. Department
of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL.
of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL.
politics. DoD personnel should be given a choice of carrier.
(Mods - prev post deleted as promised. You can delete this one as you see fit at your leisure. Thank you.)
Last edited by Slasher; 6th Apr 2012 at 04:21.
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Read fast, maybe this comment gets deleted soon.
DOD, did a audit in 2003 and went to Seoul. They found it not life threatening anymore to lift the ban that KAL is not considert for official travel.
At that time Greenberg, Snyder and Mohrke where in the Office to do what they can to brush up what was needed, often without the support of the lower ranks but with the assistance of late Cho and Shim.
In the early 2000´s things went upwards but certainly detoriating again since 2009. It is a real shame what happend in BKK, that shows clearly that they need to do more homework again and not only window dressing, lookes good on the surface but beware when you start to look under the carpet !
I was disturbed, at least, when I´ve learned about the occassion at BKK. I am not sure what I would have done when I was there. Maybe just walked off and went.
I remember a discussion between a Cannuck and a Kimchi about a break fan at GMP, the end of the story was that the cannuck lost the job because a Korean is always right, despite the facts.
Cabin temperature was the cause of another ExPat beeing dismissed on the way to ICN, that time the Purser felt accused and wrote a complain about it.
As more as I think back I see many Guy´s where chopped for no reason. You can sustain when you are lucky enough. Some guy´s where with the "wrong Agent" there and lost the job as the contract was not renewed. Fragile and hostile is the situation at least.
As as short summary I would say: You love flying, you have a job, you love your Family then do not risk anything. Let it go. Do yourself the favour by staying away, that does also the FCU a favour and when they learn that the expansion is not able to sustain without ExPats then it might be a little late but not too late. The pay is not that great either, appx. 13.000.-- USD for a B744/777, not enough compensation for the pain you might have to take.
Soo you want to fly for KAL ? do you really want ?
Fly safe and land happy
NG
At that time Greenberg, Snyder and Mohrke where in the Office to do what they can to brush up what was needed, often without the support of the lower ranks but with the assistance of late Cho and Shim.
In the early 2000´s things went upwards but certainly detoriating again since 2009. It is a real shame what happend in BKK, that shows clearly that they need to do more homework again and not only window dressing, lookes good on the surface but beware when you start to look under the carpet !
I was disturbed, at least, when I´ve learned about the occassion at BKK. I am not sure what I would have done when I was there. Maybe just walked off and went.
I remember a discussion between a Cannuck and a Kimchi about a break fan at GMP, the end of the story was that the cannuck lost the job because a Korean is always right, despite the facts.
Cabin temperature was the cause of another ExPat beeing dismissed on the way to ICN, that time the Purser felt accused and wrote a complain about it.
As more as I think back I see many Guy´s where chopped for no reason. You can sustain when you are lucky enough. Some guy´s where with the "wrong Agent" there and lost the job as the contract was not renewed. Fragile and hostile is the situation at least.
As as short summary I would say: You love flying, you have a job, you love your Family then do not risk anything. Let it go. Do yourself the favour by staying away, that does also the FCU a favour and when they learn that the expansion is not able to sustain without ExPats then it might be a little late but not too late. The pay is not that great either, appx. 13.000.-- USD for a B744/777, not enough compensation for the pain you might have to take.
Soo you want to fly for KAL ? do you really want ?
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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Sigh, holy moley...some crappy Yankee English testing company gave me only an ICAO level 5 but I don't write English like B737NG. Generally people who write English like that speak atrociously as well! I was PF to Madrid, my expat captain (a Latino )with level 6 English had to rescued from embarrassing himself with my " Konglish " saving the day
However after crossing the Pyrenees, he was the champion with the Spanish ATC!
So before you go on maligning Koreans about our ATC English prowess, be honest about some of your fellow expats who also have dodgy English proficiency certificates!
However after crossing the Pyrenees, he was the champion with the Spanish ATC!So before you go on maligning Koreans about our ATC English prowess, be honest about some of your fellow expats who also have dodgy English proficiency certificates!
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Regarding English, there are a lot of Koreans with very good English ability, as mentioned above regarding the cabin crew - some of whom have been my students over the years. What must be remembered is that English ability, or at least English test scores, are one of the key factors required by Samsung, LG and the other big companies for hiring. For the average Korean, aiming for an office job at Samsung will bring more money and be more socially acceptable to parents than the 'dream' of being a pilot. Basically, the system is structured so that those with good English get accepted into jobs that do not need it, and if a pilot has good English that is more luck than anything else as those with good English are working for Samsung. Remember that in Korea, most companies like Samsung will not hire any male who is even one year older than his university cohort as he is then 'too old' and with respect to Confucian values and creates a situation in which a newer employee has more power due to age than employees who have worked there longer.
As for cabin crew, being female it is less of a concern as they do not expect to work much after marriage, hence are more 'willing' to work in a dead end job with good pay for a few years until they get to the verge of the too late to marry / too old to work in the cabin (all by Korean standards). Yes it is dead end because women are often expected and want to quit work when they get married.
There are a lot more dynamics going on here than many realize.
As for cabin crew, being female it is less of a concern as they do not expect to work much after marriage, hence are more 'willing' to work in a dead end job with good pay for a few years until they get to the verge of the too late to marry / too old to work in the cabin (all by Korean standards). Yes it is dead end because women are often expected and want to quit work when they get married.
There are a lot more dynamics going on here than many realize.
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As haejanggook says:
And, as haejanggook said:
in his perfect English syntax while injuring his arm patting himself on the back.
I was PF to Madrid, my expat captain (a Latino )with level 6 English had to rescued from embarrassing himself with my " Konglish " saving the day
What a load of crock!
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I have worked and lived in many Asian countries including Korea. I have travelled long distances to many outback places with my local colleagues on planes, trains, buses and taxies. During this time I have been able to have many long and interesting discussions about most things from cell phones to Tibetan politics. One thing I have learnt with absolute certainty is that people all over the world are the same. Asian, Western, Middle Eastern, African etc. All men have similar interests and talk about the same stuff. Woman from all cultures have similar interests and talk about such things as boyfriends and babies. The difference is their education since they were born. This is their culture. In the 50s many Koreans were starving to death. In the 80s Korea was controlled by a ruthless dictator. Koreans are very proud of their achievements, their long history, of Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, about King Sejong and the Hangeul alphabet and so they should be. If their safety is not so good a bunch of insults is not going to help. What is required is more understanding and less of these negative rants.
Some advice to the western pilot with the Korean first officer. Because you are probably older your first officer he may feel inferior and because his English is not so good he may feel a little embarrassed. Take control, make the situation better, talk to him, ask him about his time in the military. Admit that you don’t really like kimchi because it is a little too spicy. Apologise for not being able to speak Korean. Ask him if he thinks North and South Korea should reunite. Spend a day at the National Museum of Korea in Seoul. Spend another day in the Seoul War Museum. I think you will find it will enrich your life.
Some advice to the western pilot with the Korean first officer. Because you are probably older your first officer he may feel inferior and because his English is not so good he may feel a little embarrassed. Take control, make the situation better, talk to him, ask him about his time in the military. Admit that you don’t really like kimchi because it is a little too spicy. Apologise for not being able to speak Korean. Ask him if he thinks North and South Korea should reunite. Spend a day at the National Museum of Korea in Seoul. Spend another day in the Seoul War Museum. I think you will find it will enrich your life.
Last edited by Cool Guys; 6th Apr 2012 at 15:22. Reason: Increased the font size
It must be said that haejangkuk's english is remarkable. His choice of PPrune name is not bad either and might explain a couple of his more outspoken comments. Vive la difference!
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My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.
If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general.
If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general.
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My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.
If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general..
If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general..
May you someday have the opportunity to fly there. Then it will be interesting to hear your comments.
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This is NOT the problem!!
If Korean, or e.g VAC, or any other airline want to play on the international arena and attract international SLF, they MUST at least reach a certain standard.
They must put aside their national , pride, face or whatever and recognise the safety tradition adopted elsewhere that are ahead in this aspect.
It has nothing to do with nationality or breed or anything except a long learned lesson!
F**k it! Even Konfucius said "Learn from the master"
If Korean, or e.g VAC, or any other airline want to play on the international arena and attract international SLF, they MUST at least reach a certain standard.
They must put aside their national , pride, face or whatever and recognise the safety tradition adopted elsewhere that are ahead in this aspect.
It has nothing to do with nationality or breed or anything except a long learned lesson!
F**k it! Even Konfucius said "Learn from the master"
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Keylime
I did read the original post several times before I posted. The points that you have raised were not in the original post. I think you should amend the original post to include this information.
Assault by anyone on another person is not acceptable, but to say that the assault was due to the fact the captain was an expat and not due to a jobs worth getting on his high horse since company procedures were not followed is very presumptuous.
In response to your comment "May you someday have the opportunity to fly there. Then it will be interesting to hear your comments." when in Rome do as the Romans do. You need to learn to adjust. Yes you will face prejudice from some people; this is a fact of life. It is now interesting to see how "Westerners" feel when they are treated life crap.
(This is coming from a third generation medical professional born and bred in the UK, who has been told time and time again that you can be the best in your profession but you will NEVER be treated as an equal)
Assault by anyone on another person is not acceptable, but to say that the assault was due to the fact the captain was an expat and not due to a jobs worth getting on his high horse since company procedures were not followed is very presumptuous.
In response to your comment "May you someday have the opportunity to fly there. Then it will be interesting to hear your comments." when in Rome do as the Romans do. You need to learn to adjust. Yes you will face prejudice from some people; this is a fact of life. It is now interesting to see how "Westerners" feel when they are treated life crap.
(This is coming from a third generation medical professional born and bred in the UK, who has been told time and time again that you can be the best in your profession but you will NEVER be treated as an equal)
Last edited by Sable Knight; 6th Apr 2012 at 23:12.
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4 Bars vs Stars
I think if some one roughed up a General he would be in some serious trouble
. Pilots are a dime a dozen and treated thusly.
"Can't we just all get along" Rodney King
. Pilots are a dime a dozen and treated thusly."Can't we just all get along" Rodney King
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company procedures were not followed is very presumptuous.
Again you show that either you didn't read the original post or have a lack of experience in understanding the difference between advisory versus SOP. The K pages are "advisory" in nature, not procedure. That statement comes directly from Koreanair standards department. If you are currently working in an air carrier operation you should know this. Don't know about JAA approved manuals, but in the front of every FAA approved manual there is dialogue about the definition of "shall, may, etc."
Unfortunately, you assume that because it is in writing it is therefore procedure. This is the way many of the korean pilots look at the subject also; If it is in writing it must be procedure. No independent thought or thinking outside the box. You might fit in well there.
As for the comment about the engineer being aggressive with the captain because he was an expat; further investigation shows from conversation with 9 different expat captains at KAL has verified that it was well known that this engineer had a reputation of being confrontational with foreigners.
IMO the only mistake the captain made was not calling the airport police after the assault and having the SOB arrested and pressing charges.