Foreign pilots warn about Turkish Airline in Danish news paper Politikken
What about KLM 737 departed from taxiway "D" (AMS) by the way??? Everybody was very silent on that matter...Wondering the reason...and you???? You think that CL complete...don't think so...
1. The official investigation on this serious incident is till ongoing (Departed from taxiway, Boeing 737-306, Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, 10 February 2010 - De Onderzoeksraad voor veiligheid)
2. After the internal investigation KLM launched a big campaign against complacency in the cockpit. Thus they had the guts to admit that the pilots made a grave error.
3. "Everybody was silent on that matter". Not at all. It raised discussion all over the community and amongst others on this BB it made it to an 11 page topic.
In contradiction THY never admitted that their pilots in the AMS accident made a mistake and they blamed Boeing and ATC for stalling an aircraft on short final.
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Safety documents
I believe these disaffected pilots released in-house safety documents to the media to substantiate their claims. This could be the worst outcome of their claims if THY decide not to share with the rest of their pilot force and deny any resultant learning......can't see anything positive for flight safety in any of this 
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thanks Soumneal, in very near future i hope not only the airliners but all Turkish Aviatiors will have the same understanding and approach , as one of your citizens i am really proud of you, thank you once again 
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This thread is creeping more towards a di*k waving contest between Turkey and Cyprus.. this is neither professional or productive.. yes it's a forum and a place for debate,, .what happened to the original thread about " Dangerous Turkish Pilots"
I have worked with many, and undergone training by Turkish pilots and consider they are as " professional and talented" as any others.. the real issues the Foriegn pilots have is communication with management and the lack of ability to integrate.. surely they must accept responsibilty for their part? If I had to focus on an area of concern in Turkey generally it would be, FTLs..Having said that, if you accept the T+Cs of job, if it's not commutable, don't use it to become " current" and then moan. Without doubt if people have safety concerns they should raise them, but I really feel there is dual standards here.
If these pilots are that concerned they should leave,, go and work in China or India and then do a comparison...
These same pilots are happy to use staff travel and other benefits, take a tax free salary and live cheaply... perhaps it is they that cannot find other jobs on the doorstep to Europe..do not run with the fox and chase with the hounds or condem a whole nation of aviators, many of which have had their training done in Holland and Germany and passed DLR tests which other European nationals fail.
I have worked with many, and undergone training by Turkish pilots and consider they are as " professional and talented" as any others.. the real issues the Foriegn pilots have is communication with management and the lack of ability to integrate.. surely they must accept responsibilty for their part? If I had to focus on an area of concern in Turkey generally it would be, FTLs..Having said that, if you accept the T+Cs of job, if it's not commutable, don't use it to become " current" and then moan. Without doubt if people have safety concerns they should raise them, but I really feel there is dual standards here.
If these pilots are that concerned they should leave,, go and work in China or India and then do a comparison...
These same pilots are happy to use staff travel and other benefits, take a tax free salary and live cheaply... perhaps it is they that cannot find other jobs on the doorstep to Europe..do not run with the fox and chase with the hounds or condem a whole nation of aviators, many of which have had their training done in Holland and Germany and passed DLR tests which other European nationals fail.
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Reality vs. Grudges/Distortions
Hello all,
I am a Turkish citizen and F/O on the 737 at the most popular company of this thread. First off I'd like to thank for all the constructive criticism brought about by the news story that will help with the wave of change we have been experiencing here. However, I had been waiting to hear out all the opinions before throwing in my 2 cents, hoping to avoid all biases. Which turned out to be a wise decision, observing the haste with which some colleagues rushed in to vomit their political and racist spiel that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Then there were quite a few who did have a myriad of valid points and no stereotypes but gave into painting a skewed picture by making gross generalizations. I'm sure most of those people come to think of themselves as civilized folks going through their daily routines, and probably could not have employed the same haste or tone face to face. They just happen to be a few examples of many out there in cyberspace who give in to the ease of bashing things they know or think little about, at the ease of clicks and keystrokes, which saves them the reality of daring to deliver their hate speeches in public. I cannot help but think their actual purpose in doing so is putting on a show for themselves, which they do not possess the guts to do in public. Call it ego issues, inferiority complex or whatever you will, but not the least courteous or civilized. Come to think of it most of these people could go on and on preaching about CRM, the gradient, professionalism and courtesy and yada yada yada. Yeah guys, we all see it in you!
For all the points brought up by the newspaper article and those colleagues who claim to have worked at THY, most of them hold. I have to point out however that there are some gross generalizations and accusations. I also cannot help but wish those people had raised voices while they were here with us instead of flaming about it to their domestic media. Yes we have plenty of old school guys here who "do not need checklists to fly", we have plenty who could improve their use of the English language, plenty of machoism and disrespect for professionalism, plenty of undertrained/underexperienced people who have slipped through cracks based on acquaintances, and so on, but they do not account for the whole. While plentiful in numbers and perhaps still seated at a few of the key positions in the company those people do not make up a significant percentage. Above all, things are changing. We talk of France, Italy, Spain and Greece having had to change their ways. So most of you know how sluggish and painful change is. I was not trained in Turkey and I have gone through somewhat of a culture shock getting used to flying with the occasional nutcase, maybe once a month. I do not think that attributing the presence of such people is doing the rest of us justice. Day in, day out I work with some of the most enjoyable and courteous people out there, Turkish or otherwise, I can only look forward to flying with them again.
I have to point out that I have seen the worst of some of the foreigners as well. They suffer from the same problems that Turks are blamed for. Yet I regret to see some of my colleagues making definitive statements on the thread, based on brief experiences or assumptions. If you've only been here for an interview, or a sim ride, or your friend told you about it, I don't think you should be joining the bandwagon so fast. I have flown with many foreign captains since they started joining and have exchanged conversations with probably twice as many. While touching on the fact that we do have idiots flying with us and going through our mandatory company gossip, they are glad to be working with most of us who are here to stay at THY. This in turn enables me to assess the credibility of some of the assertions made by those who say they have "seen it all"
I am a Turkish citizen and F/O on the 737 at the most popular company of this thread. First off I'd like to thank for all the constructive criticism brought about by the news story that will help with the wave of change we have been experiencing here. However, I had been waiting to hear out all the opinions before throwing in my 2 cents, hoping to avoid all biases. Which turned out to be a wise decision, observing the haste with which some colleagues rushed in to vomit their political and racist spiel that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Then there were quite a few who did have a myriad of valid points and no stereotypes but gave into painting a skewed picture by making gross generalizations. I'm sure most of those people come to think of themselves as civilized folks going through their daily routines, and probably could not have employed the same haste or tone face to face. They just happen to be a few examples of many out there in cyberspace who give in to the ease of bashing things they know or think little about, at the ease of clicks and keystrokes, which saves them the reality of daring to deliver their hate speeches in public. I cannot help but think their actual purpose in doing so is putting on a show for themselves, which they do not possess the guts to do in public. Call it ego issues, inferiority complex or whatever you will, but not the least courteous or civilized. Come to think of it most of these people could go on and on preaching about CRM, the gradient, professionalism and courtesy and yada yada yada. Yeah guys, we all see it in you!
For all the points brought up by the newspaper article and those colleagues who claim to have worked at THY, most of them hold. I have to point out however that there are some gross generalizations and accusations. I also cannot help but wish those people had raised voices while they were here with us instead of flaming about it to their domestic media. Yes we have plenty of old school guys here who "do not need checklists to fly", we have plenty who could improve their use of the English language, plenty of machoism and disrespect for professionalism, plenty of undertrained/underexperienced people who have slipped through cracks based on acquaintances, and so on, but they do not account for the whole. While plentiful in numbers and perhaps still seated at a few of the key positions in the company those people do not make up a significant percentage. Above all, things are changing. We talk of France, Italy, Spain and Greece having had to change their ways. So most of you know how sluggish and painful change is. I was not trained in Turkey and I have gone through somewhat of a culture shock getting used to flying with the occasional nutcase, maybe once a month. I do not think that attributing the presence of such people is doing the rest of us justice. Day in, day out I work with some of the most enjoyable and courteous people out there, Turkish or otherwise, I can only look forward to flying with them again.
I have to point out that I have seen the worst of some of the foreigners as well. They suffer from the same problems that Turks are blamed for. Yet I regret to see some of my colleagues making definitive statements on the thread, based on brief experiences or assumptions. If you've only been here for an interview, or a sim ride, or your friend told you about it, I don't think you should be joining the bandwagon so fast. I have flown with many foreign captains since they started joining and have exchanged conversations with probably twice as many. While touching on the fact that we do have idiots flying with us and going through our mandatory company gossip, they are glad to be working with most of us who are here to stay at THY. This in turn enables me to assess the credibility of some of the assertions made by those who say they have "seen it all"
Last edited by plane geek; 15th Dec 2011 at 16:58. Reason: typos
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I do not know if PA28VIKING is a prof. air line pilot ( Catain or Co-pilot ).
It is unfair to blame an air-line Company examining only particular accidents, that in all Companys likey occur !!
It is unfair to blame an air-line Company examining only particular accidents, that in all Companys likey occur !!
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Thank you for your post plane geek. In it you admit to the following:
As one that has flown THY on several occasions that's more than enough information for me to now add the airline to my "no fly" list. Whilst the above examples may constitute a relative minority, I find this minority significant enough to make me feel uncomfortable about flying with your airline.
Yes we have plenty of old school guys here who "do not need checklists to fly", we have plenty who could improve their use of the English language, plenty of machoism and disrespect for professionalism, plenty of undertrained/underexperienced people who have slipped through cracks based on acquaintances, and so on, but they do not account for the whole. While plentiful in numbers and perhaps still seated at a few of the key positions in the company those people do not make up a significant percentage.
Mistrust in Management
Serafim Kamoutsis
It is unfair to blame an air-line Company examining only particular accidents, that in all Companys likey occur !!
When an accident occurs we have to look into the 'why' it occurred so as to develop stategies to minimise the risk of re-occurence.
My own suspicion (based on the fact that I lived in Turkey for 3 years as a teenager) is that culture has something to do with the whole ethos of CRM and training etc in any Turkish airline.
Please note that by the above statement I am not saying Turkish people are 'bad people' , just that the way their culture has developed may not have been condusive to the best of airline operating practices. Turkey is not alone in this.
My own country (UK) has had some terrible accidents which perhaps may have been preventable had it not been for the prevalent culture at the time. (The terrible Trident crash at Staines may be one example - although we will never know for sure)
I think we have to be 'inward looking' and objective about our airline culture (very difficult to do) in order to improve.
It is intelligent behaviour to learn fom others when appropriate. I expect that THY could teach many of us a thing or two - but also THY ( and others) may be able to learn from other carriers.
Anyway - all the best
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Pressrelease from Turkish Airlines:
As the journalists have intentionally excluded relevant comments and corrections from an interview with Turkish Airlines' CEO that exonerates the company, Turkish Airlines must at this point clarify the matters to maintain the feeling of safety for all passengers.
CEO of Turkish Airlines, Temel Kotil, Ph.D., states:
- We strongly reject the allegations stated in Politiken. The conclusions drawn are heavily exaggerated and without bearing in the reality that our thousands of daily passengers experience. Every passenger and member of the flight staff travels safely with Turkish Airlines and it is unreasonable and against better knowledge to insinuate otherwise on the basis of an anonymous example.
Turkish Airlines consider the statements to be very serious, and the airline will do its utmost to unveil and to investigate what these accusations may infer.
Since 2005, all candidate pilots have been required to prove their proficiency in the English Language through internationally approved exams (TOEFL/IELTS/TOEIC). Turkish Airlines' pilots are furthermore subjected to a series of training programs authorized by the Turkish Directorate of General Civil Aviation, which is an authority under the European Aviation Safety Agency.
Temel Kotil thus explains that all passengers can feel completely safe when flying with Turkish Airlines:
- Flight safety is our absolute highest priority. We are uncompromising when it comes to the qualifications and training of our flight personnel. Every flight staff member is thoroughly educated and rigorously tested on an ongoing basis to make sure that both their flight skills and language skills are impeccable. Turkish Airlines takes every possible measure to ensure that our safety standards more than live up to flight authority regulations, which is one of the reasons why we are part of the Star Alliance network ™ and recipient of several awards in flight experience quality.
Turkish Airlines pilots' average working experience is above 10.000 hours for Captains and above 3.000 hours for Co-pilots. Even if the pilots' test performances are as good as industry standards, the pilots are obliged to take extra simulator sessions to achieve excellence.
Politiken's writings are based on anonymous statements from pilots. However, these statements are in direct contrast to the reality the pilots and flight personnel experience in their everyday work life and open communication amongst colleagues.
As Turkish Airlines, we can fully refute the allegations made by Politiken. The pilots at Turkish Airlines are both qualified and trusting in one another.
It's obvious that Turkish Airlines is an open and progressive airline where we communicate and evolve positively. Accordingly, we encourage every employee to make sure that they continuously undergo training programs to exceed industry standards on flight safety.
It is important for Turkish Airlines, both management and staff, to express their sincere concern of all passengers' safe travelling with their airline as well as their relations to authorities and to their partners, and to openly meet any discussions that the articles initially published in Danish newspaper Politiken may lead to.
PRESS RELEASE
Turkish Airlines: We take every measure to ensure flight safety
This weekend, the Danish newspaper Politiken published allegations against Turkish Airlines, particularly regarding the language skills of the company's pilots. Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing and that all our pilots are both verbally competent and well trained in all aspects of flight.Turkish Airlines: We take every measure to ensure flight safety
As the journalists have intentionally excluded relevant comments and corrections from an interview with Turkish Airlines' CEO that exonerates the company, Turkish Airlines must at this point clarify the matters to maintain the feeling of safety for all passengers.
CEO of Turkish Airlines, Temel Kotil, Ph.D., states:
- We strongly reject the allegations stated in Politiken. The conclusions drawn are heavily exaggerated and without bearing in the reality that our thousands of daily passengers experience. Every passenger and member of the flight staff travels safely with Turkish Airlines and it is unreasonable and against better knowledge to insinuate otherwise on the basis of an anonymous example.
Turkish Airlines consider the statements to be very serious, and the airline will do its utmost to unveil and to investigate what these accusations may infer.
Since 2005, all candidate pilots have been required to prove their proficiency in the English Language through internationally approved exams (TOEFL/IELTS/TOEIC). Turkish Airlines' pilots are furthermore subjected to a series of training programs authorized by the Turkish Directorate of General Civil Aviation, which is an authority under the European Aviation Safety Agency.
Temel Kotil thus explains that all passengers can feel completely safe when flying with Turkish Airlines:
- Flight safety is our absolute highest priority. We are uncompromising when it comes to the qualifications and training of our flight personnel. Every flight staff member is thoroughly educated and rigorously tested on an ongoing basis to make sure that both their flight skills and language skills are impeccable. Turkish Airlines takes every possible measure to ensure that our safety standards more than live up to flight authority regulations, which is one of the reasons why we are part of the Star Alliance network ™ and recipient of several awards in flight experience quality.
Turkish Airlines pilots' average working experience is above 10.000 hours for Captains and above 3.000 hours for Co-pilots. Even if the pilots' test performances are as good as industry standards, the pilots are obliged to take extra simulator sessions to achieve excellence.
Politiken's writings are based on anonymous statements from pilots. However, these statements are in direct contrast to the reality the pilots and flight personnel experience in their everyday work life and open communication amongst colleagues.
As Turkish Airlines, we can fully refute the allegations made by Politiken. The pilots at Turkish Airlines are both qualified and trusting in one another.
It's obvious that Turkish Airlines is an open and progressive airline where we communicate and evolve positively. Accordingly, we encourage every employee to make sure that they continuously undergo training programs to exceed industry standards on flight safety.
It is important for Turkish Airlines, both management and staff, to express their sincere concern of all passengers' safe travelling with their airline as well as their relations to authorities and to their partners, and to openly meet any discussions that the articles initially published in Danish newspaper Politiken may lead to.
Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing
Last edited by etrang; 16th Dec 2011 at 10:01.
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Excluding hijacks and a ground incident which was not crew action related, I note the following accident statistics involving fatalities in the last 16 years:
British Airways: 0
Air France: 2 (I chose AFR because they've been in the headlines more recently too)
THY Turkish: 4
British Airways: 0
Air France: 2 (I chose AFR because they've been in the headlines more recently too)
THY Turkish: 4
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As one that has flown THY on several occasions that's more than enough information for me to now add the airline to my "no fly" list. Whilst the above examples may constitute a relative minority, I find this minority significant enough to make me feel uncomfortable about flying with your airline.
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Inflammatory thread.You cant rate safety on nationality or race.The minute you try,youll get your comeuppance.You can attempt to do it based on airline and people do.Qantas has never had a fatality,nor SWA.But airlines never advertise their safety record because its asking for trouble.THY has had some accidents its true and they probably do have a steep cockpit gradient as do all airlines from the Orient.But before you cast your stone,dont forget that any crew from any corner of the world can screw the pooch.Humans are entirely fallible.
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Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing and that all our pilots are both verbally competent and well trained in all aspects of flight.
Yeah, gear up shut up culture, lack of imminent stall recovery (THY1951) and shortage of self-criticism (always blame others)
Carriers like THY are on my personal No Fly list
Just a small question. Let's say Turkish Airlines would suffer exodus of scared pax who would select another carrier. Who would be a (the) winner? Who is the main competitor at large? Or is there any local market where THY may be some tough adversary?
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Turkish Airlines business will not be effected by these "rumours", the majority of the travelling public would not even read this stuff.
To play the devil's advocate, if you actually look at the stats: Accidents statistics : Fatalities by operator | Airfleets aviation
and:Airline accident ratings
Turkish are by no means the worst, infact if I lack sensitivity and do it on body count, Air France is much worse..
Getting back to the thread, in my opinion, the worst CRM is in Greece with the " National Carrier", next Cyprus, then China.. Ok, the Turkish culture means that CRM can be hard work. having said that, if we look at the " aviation" element as a measure, the domestic airports these guys operate to and from would make make European pilots take deep breaths. How many THY flights have landed or taken off on taxi ways or arrived at the wrong airport on major international destinations? The Turkish Authorities have just carried out a review of safety at it's own airports and I understand that the carriers are trying to adopt the recommendations outlined. Perhaps Europe should do the same
To play the devil's advocate, if you actually look at the stats: Accidents statistics : Fatalities by operator | Airfleets aviation
and:Airline accident ratings
Turkish are by no means the worst, infact if I lack sensitivity and do it on body count, Air France is much worse..
Getting back to the thread, in my opinion, the worst CRM is in Greece with the " National Carrier", next Cyprus, then China.. Ok, the Turkish culture means that CRM can be hard work. having said that, if we look at the " aviation" element as a measure, the domestic airports these guys operate to and from would make make European pilots take deep breaths. How many THY flights have landed or taken off on taxi ways or arrived at the wrong airport on major international destinations? The Turkish Authorities have just carried out a review of safety at it's own airports and I understand that the carriers are trying to adopt the recommendations outlined. Perhaps Europe should do the same
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How many THY flights have landed or taken off on taxi ways or arrived at the wrong airport on major international destinations?
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I am sure there are some facts behind and not all is fiction. There is smoke?... there is a fire somewhere.
There are Pilots out everywhere, not only at THY, they cannot express themselves in English and due to intensive training (Bakshish?) they can make it to Level IV somehow.
One of my loved scenarios in a Loft would be a fully funktional Airplane and a pregnant Woman aboard who has all of a sudden a early delivery in the 29th week. Let some Guy´s communicate that with the Ground to have the appropriate Medical assistance on the Ground STBY after arrival. As I have spoken with many non native English Pilots around the Globe, it could be a challenge at least.
Now back to THY: If all why is the Doctor so concerned that he needs to comment that article in a small Country so intense? Another thought... Is it political ? religious ? There are many thoughts running thru my brain at this very moment when I am thinking back who published Salman Rushdy? Was it not the same Country ?.
I better stop it now because that is not only food for thought, that can be fuel to the fire. The House is burning for sure and with the recent attempt to get rid of the "yabanci" within the operation it is a too sensitive subject.
There are Pilots out everywhere, not only at THY, they cannot express themselves in English and due to intensive training (Bakshish?) they can make it to Level IV somehow.
One of my loved scenarios in a Loft would be a fully funktional Airplane and a pregnant Woman aboard who has all of a sudden a early delivery in the 29th week. Let some Guy´s communicate that with the Ground to have the appropriate Medical assistance on the Ground STBY after arrival. As I have spoken with many non native English Pilots around the Globe, it could be a challenge at least.
Now back to THY: If all why is the Doctor so concerned that he needs to comment that article in a small Country so intense? Another thought... Is it political ? religious ? There are many thoughts running thru my brain at this very moment when I am thinking back who published Salman Rushdy? Was it not the same Country ?.
I better stop it now because that is not only food for thought, that can be fuel to the fire. The House is burning for sure and with the recent attempt to get rid of the "yabanci" within the operation it is a too sensitive subject.