Foreign pilots warn about Turkish Airline in Danish news paper Politikken
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I've been reading this discussion, which majorly consists of opinions and anecdotes directly from professionals, during my coffee break to my study for ATPL exams tomorrow. Disregarding some heavy and unfair expressions, I prefer to view and consider everything posted here in an objective way. However, as you can guess, it's still quite sad for me to read such negative opinions about Turkish Airlines, both as a Turkish citizen and a Turkish Airlines cadet.
I won't try to defend the company blindfoldedly (because I'm yet to begin my job), nor I'll support the lack of any constructive criticism which would be beneficial not only for the company but also the international commercial aviation (considering TA's widespread routes around the globe). With all my respect to the professionalism and experience speaking here, however; I'd like to remind everybody commenting here about the whole new generation of pilots on the way to Turkish Airlines and to the world's aviation.
I don't currently know much about my senior colleauges, but what I see here around me in my training is lots of hardworking brilliant, open minded pilot candidates. We are all "at-least" university graduates, who have succesfully passed a vigorious series of aptitude, language and psychological (not to mention health-related) tests which took almost an entire year. Half of us under full-time training in USA while the other half is being trained full-time in the company's brand-new training facilities in our country. Most of all, our progress is thoroughly monitored in both facilities and frankly speaking, I haven't seen any tolerance for failure or ineffectiveness in any of the training phases. These people (including me) are thoroughly and fairly selected, I can assure you on this as a prospective Turkish Airlines pilot who will be the first in his family to be in aviation.
As a second thought, reading all these stuff actually motivated me to study more. Wow! Thank you!
I'll be looking forward to share the sky and meet you to learn more from your experiences. Safe flight to everybody!
I won't try to defend the company blindfoldedly (because I'm yet to begin my job), nor I'll support the lack of any constructive criticism which would be beneficial not only for the company but also the international commercial aviation (considering TA's widespread routes around the globe). With all my respect to the professionalism and experience speaking here, however; I'd like to remind everybody commenting here about the whole new generation of pilots on the way to Turkish Airlines and to the world's aviation.
I don't currently know much about my senior colleauges, but what I see here around me in my training is lots of hardworking brilliant, open minded pilot candidates. We are all "at-least" university graduates, who have succesfully passed a vigorious series of aptitude, language and psychological (not to mention health-related) tests which took almost an entire year. Half of us under full-time training in USA while the other half is being trained full-time in the company's brand-new training facilities in our country. Most of all, our progress is thoroughly monitored in both facilities and frankly speaking, I haven't seen any tolerance for failure or ineffectiveness in any of the training phases. These people (including me) are thoroughly and fairly selected, I can assure you on this as a prospective Turkish Airlines pilot who will be the first in his family to be in aviation.
As a second thought, reading all these stuff actually motivated me to study more. Wow! Thank you!
I'll be looking forward to share the sky and meet you to learn more from your experiences. Safe flight to everybody!
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I would suggest..
I m fine with all critics..by all means, except those related with politics, 
it's not the topic here. And I would suggest the one who saw these irregularities and faults should report it to the company flight manager. Has anyone done this? I think no
Then you can not be called as international professional pilot. Aviator corrects the other aviator without patriotic expectations.. It's a shame on all having one aspect critisism like a child.Passenger is passenger...do you know how many from Germany how many from China you carry on board? Normally no! So if you are in the cockpit you cant see the faults from national perspective... if you do it you are in a big mistake..
Please report these irregulaties to the authority to take precaution or help to kick them out of the company .. so you can create a better job environment by yourself..
Thank you for all... have a safe one always..
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FACTS:
Here are some facts for anyone wishing to work in Turkey and/or Turkish Airlines:
-You are a second (sometimes third) class citizen if you are a foreign pilot
-It is never Captains fault! It is the FO, plane, ATC or procedures that are at fault
-Being a pilot at Turkish Airline is tradition that is passed on from father to son. Anybody else is an outsider
-Most THY pilots are ex military. They still fly with that menthality and any pilot from a civilian background is considered to be a moron
-There is no teaching/gathering experience in the cockpit. There is just yelling and making you feel stupid
-You cant report your senior to the management. Nobody will side with a foreigner/outsider. Almost all captains have a God complexion.
-English conversations are non existent. The English exam is being done by the Turkish CAA which in itself lacks the knowledge of English. I've seen them fail Australians or British citizens, just because!
-The Turkish CAA is one of the most corrupt organization in the country. They can pass or revoke your license ot their own free will, making anything look like a fault. Nobody dares to speak against them. There is no other official organization that controls them cause they are one of the biggest source of income to the current AKP government.
-So many charges of corruption was brought againts the former head of CAA but as one can guess, he never had his day in the court.
-The Turkish CAA doesnt employ own staff based on compedance. They employ their staff based on who they know (called 'Torpil').
Examples are too many to list. My advice to anyone considering this country: DONT!
-You are a second (sometimes third) class citizen if you are a foreign pilot
-It is never Captains fault! It is the FO, plane, ATC or procedures that are at fault
-Being a pilot at Turkish Airline is tradition that is passed on from father to son. Anybody else is an outsider
-Most THY pilots are ex military. They still fly with that menthality and any pilot from a civilian background is considered to be a moron
-There is no teaching/gathering experience in the cockpit. There is just yelling and making you feel stupid
-You cant report your senior to the management. Nobody will side with a foreigner/outsider. Almost all captains have a God complexion.
-English conversations are non existent. The English exam is being done by the Turkish CAA which in itself lacks the knowledge of English. I've seen them fail Australians or British citizens, just because!
-The Turkish CAA is one of the most corrupt organization in the country. They can pass or revoke your license ot their own free will, making anything look like a fault. Nobody dares to speak against them. There is no other official organization that controls them cause they are one of the biggest source of income to the current AKP government.
-So many charges of corruption was brought againts the former head of CAA but as one can guess, he never had his day in the court.
-The Turkish CAA doesnt employ own staff based on compedance. They employ their staff based on who they know (called 'Torpil').
Examples are too many to list. My advice to anyone considering this country: DONT!
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13 gossip girls
do you really believe that Turkish cpt. said "no need to do preflight-before start-start-before taxi-before take off checklist" and soon later "shut up rookie, i can fly this thing with my d..k"..!! do you guys really really believe ? if you're a real airline pilot you must know that every item on this checklist is very very very important..so stop making rumors about Turkish pilots..i'm one of the Turkish pilot and i'm proud with our FTO education..and we don't have any training session like "how to control aircraft with d..k"..the 13 foreign pilot that has spoken to danish press must be jealous about Turkish pilots..it's because of Turkish pilots are more talented and if we lose our hands, yes we can control this airplanes with our d..k !! this is just a gossip that 13 girl has spoken that's all..have a safe flight !!
Mistrust in Management
cgtydzn
I can understand you being a touch defensive in respect of your country,people, and Pilots - particularly as some comments on this thread have been a bit unpleasant in my opinion.
However your statement [quoteit's because of Turkish pilots are more talented ][/quote] is perhaps overstating your case ?
Sweeping generalisations of countries and/or cultures are I find mostly inappropriate.
However your statement [quoteit's because of Turkish pilots are more talented ][/quote] is perhaps overstating your case ?
Sweeping generalisations of countries and/or cultures are I find mostly inappropriate.
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To be honest I do believe it because I've witnessed the 'talented' Turkish Hocams at first hand because I was sitting next to them for about 2 years. Now 10 years later I can laugh with it and am glad that I survived most of it. There is a big difference between the old generation fighter pilots (
) and the old generation pilots who have flown multi crew aircraft in the Turkish airforce, they are the real hocams. Let's say that in my experience about 30pct of the people I've flown with where real good blokes and very normal and enjoyable to fly with. The other 70pct however ....
The problem with Turks however is that if you criticise them that they immediately think that you criticise their whole nation while they criticise basically everything which is not located in Turkish teritory. I'm quite sure that the new generation is different because they have never been in the airforce and don't bring the 'attitude' with them so give them another decade (hopefully with no more accidents) and everything will be sorted out by itself. Let me however end on a positive note. I still love to go to Turkey on holiday because believe it or not I still have good friends in the airline industry over there but most of them have flown multi crew aircraft in the Air Force.
) and the old generation pilots who have flown multi crew aircraft in the Turkish airforce, they are the real hocams. Let's say that in my experience about 30pct of the people I've flown with where real good blokes and very normal and enjoyable to fly with. The other 70pct however ....The problem with Turks however is that if you criticise them that they immediately think that you criticise their whole nation while they criticise basically everything which is not located in Turkish teritory. I'm quite sure that the new generation is different because they have never been in the airforce and don't bring the 'attitude' with them so give them another decade (hopefully with no more accidents) and everything will be sorted out by itself. Let me however end on a positive note. I still love to go to Turkey on holiday because believe it or not I still have good friends in the airline industry over there but most of them have flown multi crew aircraft in the Air Force.
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re: exeng
i think you must read more carefully "13 foreign pilot that has spoken to danish press must be jealous about Turkish pilots. It's because they are more talented" i meant they are more talented than 13 gossip girl
regards
regards
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yep ... some things never change... dear friend there are more than the "original 13" gossip girls on this forum, and they have been there for quite some time. Evaluate the merit of their posts over several years at your leisure, however they (we) are from a culture where crm rules the roost rather than little gods with stripes on.
We had a representative of the nation in question flying with us recently; thankfully a brief visit ... (friend of a friend ... usual thing)
His net contribution to the operation was to p1ss off everybody by ignoring SOP and inventing his own, demonstrating a total disregard for CRM, especially with the junior f/o's and engineers, insisting loudly that everyone should walk in line behind him at all times according to rank, like a little line of geese, except most of the cabin crew were somewhat taller than our be-striped Napoleon
Naturally, he DEMANDED to to addressed as Captain at all times .... it wasn't pretty..... oh and he was from the AF and had never flown one of those prop driven planes ... so that's all right then
We had a representative of the nation in question flying with us recently; thankfully a brief visit ... (friend of a friend ... usual thing)
His net contribution to the operation was to p1ss off everybody by ignoring SOP and inventing his own, demonstrating a total disregard for CRM, especially with the junior f/o's and engineers, insisting loudly that everyone should walk in line behind him at all times according to rank, like a little line of geese, except most of the cabin crew were somewhat taller than our be-striped Napoleon
Naturally, he DEMANDED to to addressed as Captain at all times .... it wasn't pretty..... oh and he was from the AF and had never flown one of those prop driven planes ... so that's all right then
Originally Posted by Soumneal
I haven't seen any tolerance for failure or ineffectiveness in any of the training phases
In a good working and just safety culture it is important to have a tolerance for failures because every human being makes (a lot of) (minor) mistakes. The idea behind 'tolerating' these failures is because nobody makes them on purpose and the goal is to learn from them so you and other pilots will not make the same mistake again. If there is no tolerance for mistakes and you get shouted at every time you mess something up, you probably will become either too scared to act on your own without first asking/confirming everything with the captain. Or you will just do the same things, make mistakes (as all human beings, even the hocams), but you will have a lot of hesitation to report your mistakes or ask for verification, which makes the whole safety situation worse.
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In the Turkish company I flew for, the purpose of checklists seemed to have slipped by most of the FO's, which leads me to believe the real problem was the (local) Capt's , or the training.
During the reading of a challenge/response checklist, if one hesitated more than half a second, or paused to perhaps hear a radio call for us/or some other distraction, most of them would just keep reading down the list without waiting the response.
How many times I
whilst trying to explain, you challenge I respond, if I don't, or I respond wrongly , you must either wait, or challenge me again.
This should not be required with supposedly qualified crew.
I once cocked up an approach at night into a desert runway, the one sat next to me ("supposed" to be pilot MONITORING ) clearly saw it all going for a crock of sh1t, yet said nothing. At the subsequent debrief, he could offer no explanation for saying nothing, & I truly was not a difficult person to remonstrate with.
In the space of a couple of weeks I had to take over 4 times on landing, on long runways in good conditions, & a previous life as a flying instructor ensures I am not one constantly covering the controls just waiting to grab them as soon as any deviation is identified. I have never flown with such a passive bunch, terrified of their own shadows, in most cases unable/unwilling to demonstrate any initiative, I am sure due to being browbeaten any time they opened their mouths in the past.
All in all, with the exception of a few very pleasant & exceptional guys, the majority were totally at odds with modern CRM thinking, and we all know who sets the mood /standard of operation/communication in the cockpit.
What I saw in the Sim during my Turkish Airlines assessment, & during my OCC for the other company, was like a throwback to a different era.
The only thing that will change this is the gradual retirement/replacement of the current LHS occupants with a new generation, but this takes decades.
Not trying to be offensive to our Turkish contributors, but I have to tell it as it is. Denial & blaming Boeing did no favours to how the outside world viewed your response to the AMS accident, a true professional knows just what a small part of that causal chain can be put down to a simple A/T failure.
Sometimes there is no nice way of putting it, but the general standards I viewed were not up to scratch for a company/country that sometimes claims to be European.
During the reading of a challenge/response checklist, if one hesitated more than half a second, or paused to perhaps hear a radio call for us/or some other distraction, most of them would just keep reading down the list without waiting the response.
How many times I
whilst trying to explain, you challenge I respond, if I don't, or I respond wrongly , you must either wait, or challenge me again.This should not be required with supposedly qualified crew.
I once cocked up an approach at night into a desert runway, the one sat next to me ("supposed" to be pilot MONITORING ) clearly saw it all going for a crock of sh1t, yet said nothing. At the subsequent debrief, he could offer no explanation for saying nothing, & I truly was not a difficult person to remonstrate with.
In the space of a couple of weeks I had to take over 4 times on landing, on long runways in good conditions, & a previous life as a flying instructor ensures I am not one constantly covering the controls just waiting to grab them as soon as any deviation is identified. I have never flown with such a passive bunch, terrified of their own shadows, in most cases unable/unwilling to demonstrate any initiative, I am sure due to being browbeaten any time they opened their mouths in the past.
All in all, with the exception of a few very pleasant & exceptional guys, the majority were totally at odds with modern CRM thinking, and we all know who sets the mood /standard of operation/communication in the cockpit.
What I saw in the Sim during my Turkish Airlines assessment, & during my OCC for the other company, was like a throwback to a different era.
The only thing that will change this is the gradual retirement/replacement of the current LHS occupants with a new generation, but this takes decades.
Not trying to be offensive to our Turkish contributors, but I have to tell it as it is. Denial & blaming Boeing did no favours to how the outside world viewed your response to the AMS accident, a true professional knows just what a small part of that causal chain can be put down to a simple A/T failure.
Sometimes there is no nice way of putting it, but the general standards I viewed were not up to scratch for a company/country that sometimes claims to be European.
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13 gossip girls
Yes, if we would know their names, maybe we can share some funny stories about them esp. from their LIFUS phases...But I do not believe that they show up...
I Have Control
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Unsafe THY
Check out air disaster.com/statistics and you will see that Turkish Airlines fatal accident rate is over 6 TIMES GREATER than any other state carrier in Europe. They are almost as unsafe as Egyptair, which is going some.
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Isn't that exactly one of the problems that is being addressed by the expat captains?
In a good working and just safety culture it is important to have a tolerance for failures because every human being makes (a lot of) (minor) mistakes. The idea behind 'tolerating' these failures is because nobody makes them on purpose and the goal is to learn from them so you and other pilots will not make the same mistake again. If there is no tolerance for mistakes and you get shouted at every time you mess something up, you probably will become either too scared to act on your own without first asking/confirming everything with the captain. Or you will just do the same things, make mistakes (as all human beings, even the hocams), but you will have a lot of hesitation to report your mistakes or ask for verification, which makes the whole safety situation worse.
In a good working and just safety culture it is important to have a tolerance for failures because every human being makes (a lot of) (minor) mistakes. The idea behind 'tolerating' these failures is because nobody makes them on purpose and the goal is to learn from them so you and other pilots will not make the same mistake again. If there is no tolerance for mistakes and you get shouted at every time you mess something up, you probably will become either too scared to act on your own without first asking/confirming everything with the captain. Or you will just do the same things, make mistakes (as all human beings, even the hocams), but you will have a lot of hesitation to report your mistakes or ask for verification, which makes the whole safety situation worse.
). I must have misstated my point. Let me put it this way:I'm currently getting my training in a foreign country (probably the most reputable one in aviation) among my compatriots/colleauges and obviously all of our flight instructors are natives to this country (not to mension every single speech has to be in English). Even though these civilian-oriented instructors too sometimes go a little bit tough in the air; there's communicative environment in our training cockpits most of the time. What I've tried to emphasize by this tolerance issue is that we are monitored and evaluated according to the internationally accepted standards of civil aviation training. As it is well known, these training standards (be it FAA or JAA) have their tolerance margins and we are subject to those, just like our future colleauges from other nations' airlines, getting trained here. Obviously no one's been kicked out of here after failing a single checkride.
On the other hand, one thing which is very hardly tolerated here during training is behavioural or attitude-related (not the flight, ofcourse
) problems. Students and flight instructors are encouraged to speak up and discuss their problems quite freely; but when it comes to disrespectful behaviour (which is not the single-sided "hocam" thing you've mensioned) proper disciplinary actions of varying degree are applied for both the students and the instructors, just like in every other flight school. Plus, if she/he has acceptable reasons, a flight student (as well as an instructor) may even ask for the change of her/his flight instructor. The bottomline is that, everybody here has to be communicative yet respectful to each other and, in my humble opinion, this is the essence of the CRM. And believe me, our guys being trained in Turkey are treated in the same professional principles with us.As a person who's always trying to be open-minded, I'm not trying to claim Turks' superhuman talents in flying. The talent is everywhere in the world. However, against all those single-sided criticism; I wish to remind everybody that hundreds of well-trained, professional Turkish pilots are at the gates of the industry. Again I, as one of those, am always open to criticism; wishing to learn something from them.
Ps: Aside from ATC and air traffic experience in foreign airspace; our language tests are held by well-known independent international institutions, just like many other major airlines do.
"no need to do preflight-before start-start-before taxi-before take off checklist" and soon later "shut up rookie, i can fly this thing with my d..k"..!! do you guys really really believe ? if you're a real airline pilot you must know that every item on this checklist is very very very
Really.
1. Been there, witnessed first hand. Left. BTW the management barely understood the issue that is exposed by this behaviour, as you apparently don't either.
2. The reason that checklists are used is that humans have severe limitations on accuracy of memory in dealing with multitask situations. If you consider that all checklists should be able to be memorised and used from memory, I think you should fit right in into the B737 fleet at least at THY. Good Luck, we will just be watching from the sidelines or awaiting highlights in the funny pages.
This is not a bash a nationality issue, it is a problem that a particular system has evolving from it's problematic past, and which is fighting rather well to maintain a status quo ante. I am being very guarded about what I say re the program, what is occurring under the slight ripples on the surface are truly shocking, and I merely rely on my own observations as an air safety investigator in that respect.
The simulators were actually rather good in condition, other than the oldest of the B737 fleets which are barely fit as procedural trainers. The B777 is state of the art, and the guys running that program are good value. I have very good Turkish friends and they would love to see their system change, however they are aware that is it is in many areas of the world, change can be painful, and strong are the forces that oppose change. It was always a hope that A and also SG would achieve a change in attitude, that has not been observed.
As has been said before, there are good people in the program, it is the program that has issues changing the entrenched, self perpetuating non compliance that is so rampant on cursory examination of the program.
great food, and good people. (Istanbul is one of my favorite cities).
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Soumneal
You are the future here. The younger guys who have come through the same or similar system as you are a pleasure to work with. I've worked with many of you.
The problem here and in many other airlines is the old military guys. They are a virus which will pass in time.
I see a brighter path for you as you progress through the system. Keep the smile on. You'll be fine.
You are the future here. The younger guys who have come through the same or similar system as you are a pleasure to work with. I've worked with many of you.
The problem here and in many other airlines is the old military guys. They are a virus which will pass in time.
I see a brighter path for you as you progress through the system. Keep the smile on. You'll be fine.
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Hello everyone,
I am an TURKISH AIRLINES CAPTAIN and flying on B737 fleet for many years.
I will not participate the discussion and the accusations about THY on here because it is not my job and i might not be seen objective.
I am following the threads respectfully even the most offensive ones about the company and the people of Turkey.However i must say that criticising a company should be something different then assaulting the people living and working decently in a country and in the company as well.
And the issue about the cyprus is a political matter and i don't think we pilots have any business on politics.The Ercan Control is all about a recognition effort of a nation on international arena .and as a Turkish Pilot no matter it increases my workload i always obey the instructions given by Ercan and let Nicosia know.
I am an TURKISH AIRLINES CAPTAIN and flying on B737 fleet for many years.
I will not participate the discussion and the accusations about THY on here because it is not my job and i might not be seen objective.
I am following the threads respectfully even the most offensive ones about the company and the people of Turkey.However i must say that criticising a company should be something different then assaulting the people living and working decently in a country and in the company as well.
And the issue about the cyprus is a political matter and i don't think we pilots have any business on politics.The Ercan Control is all about a recognition effort of a nation on international arena .and as a Turkish Pilot no matter it increases my workload i always obey the instructions given by Ercan and let Nicosia know.
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i always obey the instructions given by Ercan and let Nicosia know.
The confusion that is the Nicosia/Ercan will lead to a very serious incident/accident one day, and everyone knows it.
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Anyone remember what happened when DHL met a Tu154 that thought he was doing the right thing, even though everyone else knew it wasn't the correct way.
Thank you to Turkish pilots for endangering the rest of us whilst transiting the airspace over Cyprus.
So, if Cyprus is a political matter that pilots have no business on, why do you, "as a Turkish pilot obey the instructions given by Ercan" if, as you stated they are motivated by " a recognition effort by a nation on International arena" despite knowing that all non-Turkish pilots who have read & understood their en-route guides , do not ?
So what is more important ? following the legal commands given to you by the only legally recognised authority for that airspace ? or following the illegal instructions of a "psuedo controlling authority" just because they happen to be Turkish ?
In this post you have merely reinforced the points that have been made throughout this thread.
Thank you to Turkish pilots for endangering the rest of us whilst transiting the airspace over Cyprus.
So, if Cyprus is a political matter that pilots have no business on, why do you, "as a Turkish pilot obey the instructions given by Ercan" if, as you stated they are motivated by " a recognition effort by a nation on International arena" despite knowing that all non-Turkish pilots who have read & understood their en-route guides , do not ?
So what is more important ? following the legal commands given to you by the only legally recognised authority for that airspace ? or following the illegal instructions of a "psuedo controlling authority" just because they happen to be Turkish ?
In this post you have merely reinforced the points that have been made throughout this thread.
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What about KLM...???
What about KLM 737 departed from taxiway "D" (AMS) by the way??? Everybody was very silent on that matter...Wondering the reason...and you???? You think that CL complete...don't think so...