Foreign pilots warn about Turkish Airline in Danish news paper Politikken
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point is: THY startet the recruitment process. During interviews and screenings the Pilots been told they can expect a long term comittment and a career progress. Now they are out and have to look for jobs again, most of them with Families, not a nice situation to be with.
I am often on the side to warn people that the grass is not greener on the other side. Broken promises do not help the coulour either.
I am not looking into Nationalities, I am more concerned about the humans, regardless where they are from, Africa, America, Australia or Austria....... same counts for Iran, India or Ireland as well.
When we are in the Sky we breathe the same Air, we have Pilots and Aviators.
I am often on the side to warn people that the grass is not greener on the other side. Broken promises do not help the coulour either.
I am not looking into Nationalities, I am more concerned about the humans, regardless where they are from, Africa, America, Australia or Austria....... same counts for Iran, India or Ireland as well.
When we are in the Sky we breathe the same Air, we have Pilots and Aviators.
Xmas Cheer
THY has some good people in it, one hopes that they are given the chance to make the changes that are needed without the backlash that normally occurs. Those trying to change the program, know who they are, and should know they are respected for what they attempt to do. Whether the system will allow this to be successful is the big question, and the standard form of rhetoric by the CEO is consistent with head in sand positioning which may not bode well....
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Africa Asia EU all together
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many EU born Turkish pilots fly in any EU country ?
For sure, there are few and are not being treated as Turks, only as the citizens of the particular country.That's the way it should be. Lately had met with the friends who are the managers of one of the main European airline company to which I had applied at previous and resigned and we talked about their member who is at the police department ( criminal ) on his own request and we could not say anything bad about Turkish pilots flying for the main European airline at all. If there are foreigners living in Turkey, means Turkey needs them, and they should implement some new safe techniques or a safe strategy or share the knowledge. Currently, I see everything from a different angle now, ( being after two catastr.) and I really think that Turkey had helped the others a lot .
For sure, there are few and are not being treated as Turks, only as the citizens of the particular country.That's the way it should be. Lately had met with the friends who are the managers of one of the main European airline company to which I had applied at previous and resigned and we talked about their member who is at the police department ( criminal ) on his own request and we could not say anything bad about Turkish pilots flying for the main European airline at all. If there are foreigners living in Turkey, means Turkey needs them, and they should implement some new safe techniques or a safe strategy or share the knowledge. Currently, I see everything from a different angle now, ( being after two catastr.) and I really think that Turkey had helped the others a lot .
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ignorance, facts, racism, prejudices...
Unfortunately this maliciously created topic represents all above. It even means very much if such statements released in a paper called "politikken".
Unfortunately this maliciously created topic represents all above. It even means very much if such statements released in a paper called "politikken".
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know many expat colleagues happily flying for this company. TK has around six hundreds of expat pilots at the moment, and just a bunch of them having attitude problems here creating a big mess for the others.
I don't know if you ever flew with TK, or you're just one of those aiming your guns at it, we all would be enlightened if you shared your unpleasant memories in this company. I read the others'.
I don't know if you ever flew with TK, or you're just one of those aiming your guns at it, we all would be enlightened if you shared your unpleasant memories in this company. I read the others'.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hotels
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greeks sound very much like the Turks actually..
Work with some of them and some of the lesser capable people I have seen in a LOOOONG time!!!!
Work with some of them and some of the lesser capable people I have seen in a LOOOONG time!!!!
If you are a trainer and indeed the above is true, perhaps it is a reflection of the training department where you work.
Sri Lankan sound like they've got a good safety culture....
From your other posts http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...n-pilot-3.html
Pot/kettle? Please let's keep this thread on track about Turkish.
Last edited by M-ONGO; 24th Dec 2011 at 08:03.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the mean time, any private pilot I know would shove the thrust levers forward in his piper Seneca, or any twin for that matter, much earlier, if this scenario would happen. And I do understand the complications in an airliner. It is basic flying what is lacking. Increasingly replaced by push button SOP`s. One can only be happy that modern airliners fly inherently by themselves from T/O to landing. You watch that happening for 3000 hrs and your term comes up for an upgrade, right?
As you cannot measure (read regulate) airmanship, it is easy to see how someone follows Part A, section 8. Even system knowledge is secondary.
I hold my heart for the future.
As you cannot measure (read regulate) airmanship, it is easy to see how someone follows Part A, section 8. Even system knowledge is secondary.
I hold my heart for the future.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Other side of the pond, and then up north!
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yea, i´am with you late.
How about good old airmanship and the basic instrument scanning technic.
speed is everything during approach, but i know the problem.
I used to fly an older version of my current bird without A/T and those days you had total control over approach speeds ( scanning). When you use A/T all the time you depend on it to work flawlessly all the time and of course you sometimes loose scanning of speed, espessially when you think the damn thing works normally.
But either way these guys also had VSI and how three guys in the front don´t react at that altitude is not good to say the least. You have the thrust/speedcontrol in your hands at that height???
How about good old airmanship and the basic instrument scanning technic.
speed is everything during approach, but i know the problem.
I used to fly an older version of my current bird without A/T and those days you had total control over approach speeds ( scanning). When you use A/T all the time you depend on it to work flawlessly all the time and of course you sometimes loose scanning of speed, espessially when you think the damn thing works normally.
But either way these guys also had VSI and how three guys in the front don´t react at that altitude is not good to say the least. You have the thrust/speedcontrol in your hands at that height???
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UK
Age: 62
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you worked for THY.....
You will know what the truth is. The only fleet which appears immune from problems is that of the B777 crew. They don't live in the real world of short/medium haul crews operating B737 and A320.
THY is the least professional, most dangerous airline I have had the misfortune to work for, just my opinion or that of a large proportion of crew interviewed and employed on in 2010, well reading the replies and comments posted it would seem that most are of the opinion there is a lot wrong with this airline. How it can have been voted the European airline of the year is incomprehensible for so many reasons, delays, professional standards (or lack of them), general belief that if you are a Turkish pilot you can do no wrong, I wonder then how three died in Schipol in what for most of us was a perfectly serviceable plane in good weather conditions.
You have only to sit in the cockpit with a THY Instructor (perhaps he was?) and watching him consume two packets of cigarettes in just two, two hour sectors, taxying with a cigarette, wheels up...cigarette in mouth, so and and so forth. Having never smoked even one cigarette and understanding that it was not just against THY SOP's but the country's laws too, one has to ask the question is there anything they wouldn't do and the answer is NO.
Talking with a safety pilot from the Boeing fleet, it appears that a 737 is just another fighter, just a little bigger, but with all the same facilities for having fun. Airbus fleet seemed a little less dangerous, but is there room for improvement...YES. Will there be any improvement with present management structure....NO! Was there anything that was enjoyable about flying for the the airline that says its "we are turkish airlines, we are globally yours", simply NO. The lies, the unstable roster, the days off which were infringed by unrealistic scheduling and lack of concern for an individuals right to have an undisturbed day off if you were lucky.
Of 400 ex-pat crew employed in 2009/2010, just ask the question how many are still there? If this was such a great opportunity would you not expect to see percentages in the high 90's? Well today as far as I understand it from talking with colleagues like me who left as soon as 1 year was up, there is less than 20% left, and they cant wait to leave.
Will THY suffer another crash, incident? Without any doubt, with a culture of 'I AM THE CAPTAIN and more macho behaviour it is a forgone conclusion. Yes the reports from European airspace support the fact that THY have more level busts than any other major carrier, it is a pity that these authorities don't do something. There is enough evidence out there to support these claims, lets not wait for another Schipol or worse!Well done THY you made sure I'd never want to spend another day in Turkey or ever want to fly on a plane of yours even if it means me being delayed days, I'd take any other carrier.
THY is the least professional, most dangerous airline I have had the misfortune to work for, just my opinion or that of a large proportion of crew interviewed and employed on in 2010, well reading the replies and comments posted it would seem that most are of the opinion there is a lot wrong with this airline. How it can have been voted the European airline of the year is incomprehensible for so many reasons, delays, professional standards (or lack of them), general belief that if you are a Turkish pilot you can do no wrong, I wonder then how three died in Schipol in what for most of us was a perfectly serviceable plane in good weather conditions.
You have only to sit in the cockpit with a THY Instructor (perhaps he was?) and watching him consume two packets of cigarettes in just two, two hour sectors, taxying with a cigarette, wheels up...cigarette in mouth, so and and so forth. Having never smoked even one cigarette and understanding that it was not just against THY SOP's but the country's laws too, one has to ask the question is there anything they wouldn't do and the answer is NO.
Talking with a safety pilot from the Boeing fleet, it appears that a 737 is just another fighter, just a little bigger, but with all the same facilities for having fun. Airbus fleet seemed a little less dangerous, but is there room for improvement...YES. Will there be any improvement with present management structure....NO! Was there anything that was enjoyable about flying for the the airline that says its "we are turkish airlines, we are globally yours", simply NO. The lies, the unstable roster, the days off which were infringed by unrealistic scheduling and lack of concern for an individuals right to have an undisturbed day off if you were lucky.
Of 400 ex-pat crew employed in 2009/2010, just ask the question how many are still there? If this was such a great opportunity would you not expect to see percentages in the high 90's? Well today as far as I understand it from talking with colleagues like me who left as soon as 1 year was up, there is less than 20% left, and they cant wait to leave.
Will THY suffer another crash, incident? Without any doubt, with a culture of 'I AM THE CAPTAIN and more macho behaviour it is a forgone conclusion. Yes the reports from European airspace support the fact that THY have more level busts than any other major carrier, it is a pity that these authorities don't do something. There is enough evidence out there to support these claims, lets not wait for another Schipol or worse!Well done THY you made sure I'd never want to spend another day in Turkey or ever want to fly on a plane of yours even if it means me being delayed days, I'd take any other carrier.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never mind the 'old-guard', one of the bigger worries with Turkish aviation is the number of new f/os coming out of their training schools with insufficient skills to fly a Cessna. Within the airlines, many of them are banned from touching the controls, so I hear. Sad, but true.
It looks like many new recruits are being passed through their training on a wink and a nod (and perhaps a brown envelope), and leaving their instruction to the airlines. To give them their due, most of the airlines appear to be giving these laggards the heave-ho, but this just shoves the problem onto to ever smaller airlines. It is a sad reflection on the Turkish CAA, who don't appear to be addressing this training issue at all.
It looks like many new recruits are being passed through their training on a wink and a nod (and perhaps a brown envelope), and leaving their instruction to the airlines. To give them their due, most of the airlines appear to be giving these laggards the heave-ho, but this just shoves the problem onto to ever smaller airlines. It is a sad reflection on the Turkish CAA, who don't appear to be addressing this training issue at all.
Last edited by silverstrata; 13th Jan 2012 at 03:16.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: World
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to drift off topic for a second.. Dont THY put you through some difficult and strict aptitude testing? Do they do these tests at all? Do they do them only for low hour entrants? Whats the deal?
Can someone shed some light on what the selection process for an F/O consists of?
Can someone shed some light on what the selection process for an F/O consists of?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northpole
Age: 38
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Northbeach: I must say that I totally agree with you. Training the situation in the sim was an eye-opener for me as well. It is a situation that is really hard to get out of, espescially when it comes as a surprise. I also tried a few times and it's true you really need full elevators AND trim, which is something that you probably wouldn't get right instantaneously, if it came as a surprise.
However it was not only an eye-opener in a way of how to get out of this situation but also about how they evenutally got into it.
I knew what was about to happen, however we tried the whole thing out without looking at the instruments as if we were explaining something to the guy on the observer seat.
It is absolutely not understandable for me how they ever got there in the first place. You feel that something is wrong long enough before it is too late.. well however I guess I should have written this in another topic, shouldn't I?
For the rest of the topic here I must say, I'm not at all surprised anymore the AMS accident could happen.. but it seems there are some young cadets who are in the mood for change. Let's hope you will not have to test your luck too much!
However it was not only an eye-opener in a way of how to get out of this situation but also about how they evenutally got into it.
I knew what was about to happen, however we tried the whole thing out without looking at the instruments as if we were explaining something to the guy on the observer seat.
It is absolutely not understandable for me how they ever got there in the first place. You feel that something is wrong long enough before it is too late.. well however I guess I should have written this in another topic, shouldn't I?
For the rest of the topic here I must say, I'm not at all surprised anymore the AMS accident could happen.. but it seems there are some young cadets who are in the mood for change. Let's hope you will not have to test your luck too much!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Athens, Attiki, Greece
Age: 76
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good language skills in Greece
I don't know what bad experiences Stratobus had, and I am not competent to argue airline matters with a scheduled pilot, but as a PPL holder with just over 200 hours (most flown in Athens TMA area in Cessnas or Pipers) I can definitely state that Athens Information (130.925 or Athens TMA 124.025) have absolutely first class English. I have never had any problem with them - neither in understanding the instructions, nor in their pronunciation and command of English (unlike Tatoi Airfield, where English skills are often at a much lower standard and which is Military).
However I would also like to commend Megara (which is also GA and Military) on the consistent high level of their ATC.
Generally speaking, apart from Athens I have found good English language skills and professionalism at Corfu, Thessaloniki and Skiathos but I have occasionally had poor ATC at Heraklion.
However I would also like to commend Megara (which is also GA and Military) on the consistent high level of their ATC.
Generally speaking, apart from Athens I have found good English language skills and professionalism at Corfu, Thessaloniki and Skiathos but I have occasionally had poor ATC at Heraklion.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Concur 100% with what is alleged in this thread.I wouldnt fly with any Turkish airline either as a pilot or passenger.And I can think of many other countries whose airlines I wouldnt trust either.And no its not racist.Its being honest.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: here and there
Age: 53
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How comes ???
I was reading your statements about the safety issues at THY, … and was a bit irritated by the way it goes (fight Turk’s vs. the rest of the world)
Fact is THY has a horrible aviation safety record , with six write offs in the last 20 years…..
How comes ???
1) Fast growing market /airline (with different aircraft types/philosophies), unable to cope with the huge demand of well trained and experienced staff within a necessary time frame.
2) Civil Aviation Authority, not really compliant with EASA/FAA standards and rules ( culture issue)
3) THY maintenance with partially suspended EASA 145 approval (there is not a single valid existing Turkish 145 approved MRO), THY flight ops run by former top gun individuals.
4) The company culture (politically selected managers/superiors who are not qualified/able to understand or deal with the requirements given by the industry – including English language competence)……
Is this a Turkish culture issue ???
No it is not !!!!!, you can find it everywhere in the world, where government based companies are run by prosperity orientated , shareholder value increasing corporate managements , who do not face any authority nor watchdog …………………….
Fact is THY has a horrible aviation safety record , with six write offs in the last 20 years…..
How comes ???
1) Fast growing market /airline (with different aircraft types/philosophies), unable to cope with the huge demand of well trained and experienced staff within a necessary time frame.
2) Civil Aviation Authority, not really compliant with EASA/FAA standards and rules ( culture issue)
3) THY maintenance with partially suspended EASA 145 approval (there is not a single valid existing Turkish 145 approved MRO), THY flight ops run by former top gun individuals.
4) The company culture (politically selected managers/superiors who are not qualified/able to understand or deal with the requirements given by the industry – including English language competence)……
Is this a Turkish culture issue ???
No it is not !!!!!, you can find it everywhere in the world, where government based companies are run by prosperity orientated , shareholder value increasing corporate managements , who do not face any authority nor watchdog …………………….
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Floating around the planet
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Concur 100% with what is alleged in this thread.I wouldnt fly with any Turkish airline either as a pilot or passenger.And I can think of many other countries whose airlines I wouldnt trust either.And no its not racist.Its being honest.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaptan Pilot vs. Kaptan
Otto, whatever you tried to say with 'inane shpeele' I wouldn't give to much on the local and common use of a simple title.
'Kaptan Pilot' is the Captain of an aircraft. Ahmet/Paul/David or in your case Otto Kaptan is the other guy. As strange as it might sound to you, this is simply the way it is. In other countries they use the title Doctor/Prof./Judge/your honor/Officer/Detective/Chief you name it...
If it bothers you that the F/O makes an announcement and introduces himself as 'Kaptan' than you might want to be looking for a new challenge somewhere else or learn Turkish and do it yourself.
I believe they do have other, more important things to take care of. Like pilot fatigue, the right to strike (see above), CRM issues, flying insane schedules etc.
Never mind (nicht sauer sein!)
'Kaptan Pilot' is the Captain of an aircraft. Ahmet/Paul/David or in your case Otto Kaptan is the other guy. As strange as it might sound to you, this is simply the way it is. In other countries they use the title Doctor/Prof./Judge/your honor/Officer/Detective/Chief you name it...
If it bothers you that the F/O makes an announcement and introduces himself as 'Kaptan' than you might want to be looking for a new challenge somewhere else or learn Turkish and do it yourself.
I believe they do have other, more important things to take care of. Like pilot fatigue, the right to strike (see above), CRM issues, flying insane schedules etc.
Never mind (nicht sauer sein!)