Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

SIA 777 off the rwy at EDDM

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

SIA 777 off the rwy at EDDM

Old 7th Nov 2011, 11:05
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Singapore
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Suspect you will never know why, the incident has been kept off all the media here in Singapore.....
ITman is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 11:20
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: I don't really hate them...I just miss flight attendants.
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Incident?

What incident?
FR8R H8R is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:07
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Around the World
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Men vs. Autopilot?

The skid marks might come from a "fight" between the autopilot being in rollout mode and the pilots trying to steer the plane manually. They might not have realised that the autopilot was still engaged when they applied asymmetric brake forces or nose wheel steering inputs.
69flight is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:31
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: U.S. East Cost and Europe (travelling too much, and at home in both)
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@GYS - thank you for the long and clear answer, I learn something new ever yady.

Yes, you see the loc-signal swing from left to right and back. Most of the time you see it when somebody crosses the signal before you (when you are on final) but it can happen when you are on the ground as well.
FlyingConsultant is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:38
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a bunk at 40,000 ft
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Slayer,
Correct me if I am wrong here. But a 'No flare' situation during a planned autoland would reflect at 500 ft Agl with a 'Land 2' or above 500 ft Agl with a 'No Autoland' message right.
Like I said correct me.
And FWIW, the correct procedure for a 'No flare' at 40 ft RA is a simple TOGA. Tail may strike, but that's the flea with the dog.
Any other malfunction after successful touchdown, disconnect the A/P.
And freightdog is right about the abort landing procedure. IF in fact that happened here for whatever reasons.
A380 Jockey is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:47
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: downunda
Age: 76
Posts: 128
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Turning Moment

@69Flight

The skid marks might come from a "fight" between the autopilot being in rollout mode and the pilots trying to steer the plane manually. They might not have realised that the autopilot was still engaged when they applied asymmetric brake forces or nose wheel steering inputs.
My take on that is that it would take more than just the nosewheel steering to generate the turning moment as shown by the skid tracks. perhaps a stuck reverser.

FN
flynerd is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 13:28
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas, like a whole other country
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
all 78 killed on a taxi way masquerading as a runway in tpe
In fact, it was a closed runway (5R) choked with construction equipment, not a taxiway. And the pax death toll was actually 79.
Carbon Bootprint is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 14:18
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
In fact, it was a closed runway (5R) choked with construction equipment, not a taxiway. And the pax death toll was actually 79.
Well, it was indeed normally used as a taxiway and had non-standard runway markings. Seems like it had circles instead of stripes in the touchdown zone. It is now strictly a taxiway, designated NC.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 14:39
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: A parallel universe.
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@A380 Jockey

Correct me if I am wrong here. But a 'No flare' situation during a planned autoland would reflect at 500 ft Agl with a 'Land 2' or above 500 ft Agl with a 'No Autoland' message right.
Like I said correct me.
The "flare" mode is indicated as armed at 500', but if this mode does not properly engage at 60'-40' (B744) then you still need to take some sort of action: either TOGA, or if enough visual clues are available take over manually.

I suppose it's not much different than on the A(irbus)380.
Tank2Engine is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 15:23
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a bunk at 40,000 ft
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks Tank.
I assumed if there was a malfunction detected at 500' which would not let the flare mode engage at say 50', then the flare armed would not indicate. Therefore triggering the 'Land 2'.
I however say this from memory ..
A380 Jockey is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 16:58
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: A parallel universe.
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I assumed if there was a malfunction detected at 500' which would not let the flare mode engage at say 50', then the flare armed would not indicate. Therefore triggering the 'Land 2'.
How are you going to do any sort of autoland (Land 2 or 3) without a properly working and indicating flare mode?
Tank2Engine is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 20:42
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That is exactly the problem in SIA's FO autoland procedure: Nobody is checking the FMA and the AP. They both look outside and are merely passengers.

That's why this procedure has to be removed. The investigation will hopefully show who was at the controls.


btw very unlikely they tried a go around. A 777 climbs from 0 ft even with only one engine.
Dani is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 20:57
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a bunk at 40,000 ft
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
'Land 3' annunciated > 500', fault detected in flare mode, will revert to 'Land 2'.
Then at 500' if flare fault remains, 'No Autoland'.
However this sequence will only be initiated once 'Land 3' is annunciated on the AFDS.
'No flare' then at 40' RA is a simple TOGA procedure. Provided of course(and this is a very important provided)the PM catches it AND announces it on time.
With ground effect altitude loss is about half the height at which GA is initiated. Therefore you still might get away with no tailstrike(especially on the -300 variants),if GA initiated exactly at 40' RA(impossible humanly).
But there is a very very small number of things that can go wrong in the flare mode IF the AFSEM has not annunciated 'No autoland' by 500'. There ARE some component malfunctions that still can't be caught in a fail operational system for a no flare fault. But they are very very few and can be counted on the fingers of one hand or less(the failable components that is).
Hope I managed to make some sense.
A380 Jockey is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 21:11
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dani :
That is exactly the problem in SIA's FO autoland procedure: Nobody is checking the FMA and the AP. They both look outside and are merely passengers.

That's why this procedure has to be removed. The investigation will hopefully show who was at the controls.


btw very unlikely they tried a go around. A 777 climbs from 0 ft even with only one engine.
How many times must it be stated on this thread that SIA FOs DO NOT CONDUCT AUTOLANDS AS A PF. IT IS ALWAYS THE CAPTAIN WHO IS THE PF, BOTH FOR PRACTICE AND ACTUAL AUTOLANDS.
DoMePlease is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 22:30
  #155 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do-Me-Please - Is it written in the Ops manual that FOs are not allowed to do an auto-land in Cat 1 or better weather, or is that just a habit that has developed? In my time on the B744 FOs were allowed, but rarely did do an autoland, they needed the manual landings for promotion. They were encouraged to do them for the Capt. incapacitation scenario but this was sometimes addressed in the SIM. Quite important that an FO can carry out a satisfactory autoland as in the Capt. incapacitation case he may have to if the weather is crap, can't go flying all over the globe looking for an alternate that is VMC with a possibly dying colleague in the other seat.

R/W 05R TPE - At the time of the SQ006 accident this runway was promulgated as a runway and NOTAM'ed as 'closed - under repair', it became a taxiway when the repairs were completed. On the night in question there were no crosses at the threshold and the runway lights were on.
parabellum is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 22:46
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In the first Operations Manual of Tiger Airways, which was a 1:1 copy of SIA/SLK procedures, there was a very strange paragraph, saying that CMD should let the FO make autoland if they don't want to give him the landing - for whatever reason.

I don't know if this paragraph has been lifted in SIA/SLK, in Tiger it never came to execution and was deleted very soon, like many other non-western things coming from SIA...
Dani is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2011, 23:27
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Where the company brings me to?
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
that is a really strange policy. dani, did you manage to find out the reason for it?
poser is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2011, 01:54
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: India
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The only reason why this thread remains is that it involved an Asian airline; all the skygods are trying to find fault and gloat about an Asian carrier. Had it been a western carrier this thread would have been merged with an existing one on the SEA forum and all would have been forgotten. There are many failed skygods who just can't live down the self perceived insult of having not been able to con their way into plum positions in SQ that they keep having the axes primed for grinding.
Akali Dal is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2011, 08:11
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
you mean like the Air France accident...
Dani is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2011, 09:02
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 573
Received 67 Likes on 16 Posts
Akali I think it is a shame you feel the way you do. I have just retired from SQ and have many Indian friends that I flew with. Great Guys and good pilots. As an Aussie I have never acted or felt like a "Sky God", far from it. We are all in this business together. As an ex-SQ employee I will not comment on this incident, except to say the FO never did the Auto-Land it was always the Captain, regardless of the weather. I go back to '98 on the 743. Sounds like you have met an Australian A-Hole, all nations have a few of them, we have a few in Parliament, it's called 'Human Nature'. Life would be dull without them.
By George is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.