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SIA 777 off the rwy at EDDM

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SIA 777 off the rwy at EDDM

Old 6th Feb 2012, 21:09
  #341 (permalink)  
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you still fail to justify why it is worth the risk to do it without protection
Studi - I think you are over emphasising the 'risk' element, crews, (including SIA crews), are trained to cope with last minute changes to the autoland status and are expected to cope with them, this is where correct monitoring is vital, particularly at and after the handover point when the handling pilot goes visual, (20' minima Cat III in a B747, so around 100' the HP should be looking out, NHP looking in). This is a procedure that requires continual practice, not just in the Sim, it is going on all the time and as lederhosen says, there are extremely few reported incidents or accidents.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 00:02
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BOAC - well asked - the most simplest of questions that, possibly, only one person can answer.

CJ - for all his piss and wind does have a valid point in his last two paragraphs of his latest post!
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 07:31
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Question for the 777 guys:

Where is this GA button and how do you initiate the GA? It appears to me that a go around is the simplest thing to do: Kick the throttles to max. At least that's what you do in an Airbus. Seems to me that the so much preferred moving throttes do have some quirks involved. Even if you are on the ground you might have to be able to initiate a go around. It is after starting deceleration devices (brakes, autobrakes, reversers) you should not attempt it anymore.

Thanks for the answer.
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Old 7th Feb 2012, 12:38
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White Knight

You say none of your colleagues have ended up in the grass as yet. That is as maybe but your colleagues on the A340 at least seem to have an attraction to R/W approach lights as in JNB and MEL instead
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Old 8th Feb 2012, 13:16
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not a pilot, and can't begin to understand the technicalities of Autoland, but Munich is my home airport, and I can't help wondering (or worrying?) more about the gap between departing and arriving aircraft. From the report, this seems to have been a factor in this incident. Was also intrigued by the description of the Munich tower by a previous poster, on being "professional but sporty" on separation.

I have witnessed it myself, watching approaching aircraft, pretty close to the perimeter, while another is still taking off. Have always thought "these guys obviously know what they're doing". Not so sure now.
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Old 8th Feb 2012, 20:06
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Originally Posted by MillersCourt
White Knight

You say none of your colleagues have ended up in the grass as yet. That is as maybe but your colleagues on the A340 at least seem to have an attraction to R/W approach lights as in JNB and MEL instead
Not me sunshine (well, not yet at least, ahem....Aren't you glad you've retired)

Anyway - the discussion is about falling off the tarmac on an unprotected Cat III.................
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 10:11
  #347 (permalink)  
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vested interest

I have witnessed it myself, watching approaching aircraft, pretty close to the perimeter, while another is still taking off. Have always thought "these guys obviously know what they're doing". Not so sure now.
vested interest - You can sleep safe tonight and every other night. Viewed from the side it would be hard to distinguish between departures from the RIGHT and LEFT runways as well as arrivals on either, unless you are in between! In which case they are a long way apart, as in Charles De Gaul etc.

In any major airport using parallel runways, the picture can be confusing to the most seasoned professional not involved in ATC at the time. ATC are a highly professional crowd who have no intention of risking your life and their job. If you have any faith in statistics take a look, accidents in which ATC played a significant part very few, pilots planning to be involved in an accident, somewhere between 0 and 0+, a very little.
Enjoy your flights, it is the safest form of transport on Earth!
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 13:44
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Help me.pls

When doing Cat II aprch,do I need confirmation wz ATC about LVO procedure in force?Tks.
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 14:45
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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For sure you do; otherwise you might wake up dead!

Incidentally, I am re-reading a book from my library called "Angel Visits" by Gp Capt Frank Griffths who was very involved with the development of autoland during WWII.

The huge problem then was how to get hundreds of bombers into their home airfields quickly when they came back from Germany damaged and their base was covered in fog.

When the USAAF came to "England" they were appalled by our lousy weather and lots of them considered that this was a bigger problem than flying over Germany.

Sperry invented the ILS system as we know it now. It was brought to UK as the "Signal Corps System 51" in early 1944. The team leader was Lt Col Francis Moseley who had been the development engineer for Sperry. He had an idea that combining an auto pilot with ILS signals could result in automatic landings.

The Americans didn't want to know but we did. So it was that he came to the RRE at RAF Defford which was a happy mixture of aircrew and boffins with great ideas. I quote:

"After he had been at Defford about a week demonstrating in our usual atrocious winter weather how the American ILS system worked he asked if he could wire up his breadboard (a plank of wood with all of the boffin's circuits wired up) to the autopilot and ILS instrument in our Liberator (4-engined bomber) to see whether the autopilot would bring the aircraft down the beam to the runway automatically".

Moseley had made up a coupling circuit on his breadboard in the cellar of his house inOsborne, Ohio with just four wires hanging from it; two to the autopilot and two to the instrument (what we would call a zero reader).

To cut a long story short, it all worked beautifully in the Liberator. The captain tripped the autopilot at the last possible second to complete the landing.

The date was February, 1944.

What exactly have we learned since?
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 19:52
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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vested interest - You can sleep safe tonight and every other night. Viewed from the side it would be hard to distinguish between departures from the RIGHT and LEFT runways as well as arrivals on either, unless you are in between! In which case they are a long way apart, as in Charles De Gaul etc.


thanks parabellum, but I'm talking about standing at the perimeter fence at the end of one runway, watching aircraft land and take off on the same runway.

And I'm sure ATC are an extremely professional bunch, was just intrigued by the "sporty" remark on separation.
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Old 28th Dec 2018, 18:08
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Another late final report - this one from BFU issued seven years after the incident?: https://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publicatio...B777_Munic.pdf
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 09:43
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Originally Posted by Tom the Tenor
Some posters on airliners.net are reporting that their relatives were aboard the flight to Munich. The common remark being used is that the landing was on the hard side - whatever that may mean. Read for yourselves, I guess.

Kind regards.
I usually don‘t give a hoot about a „hard landing“ assessment by pax. For most of them, every landing that is not greased is a „hard landing“.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:02
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation Herald perhaps reminds us more succinctly what this one was about: Incident: Singapore B773 at Munich on Nov 3rd 2011, runway excursion
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Old 31st Dec 2018, 08:33
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Originally Posted by slip and turn
Aviation Herald perhaps reminds us more succinctly what this one was about: Incident: Singapore B773 at Munich on Nov 3rd 2011, runway excursion
It looks to me like the pilots of this flight were passengers during this landing, and not pilots.
From the very first moment I learned to do autolands, we started to train for upsets at low level. Primary focus, localizer deviations.
This aircraft actually landed on the runway, but they failed to take proper action when it weered off to the left. Stepping on the right rudder is not your first action, disconnecting the autopilot is.
Then they continued off to the left, followed by another runway excursion to the right.
Was the autopilot engaged the whole time?
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 04:25
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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It is a good idea to let ATC know if you plan to do an autoland. The Munich controller stated that he would not have cleared the other aircraft for takeoff if this had been done. Aside from that, always keep you thumb/finger close to the disconnect switch for near immediate removal of the the autopilot, if required.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 07:27
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
This aircraft actually landed on the runway, but they failed to take proper action when it weered off to the left. Stepping on the right rudder is not your first action, disconnecting the autopilot is.
Then they continued off to the left, followed by another runway excursion to the right.
Was the autopilot engaged the whole time?

To find the answer to that you need to look at the full report (the pdf that slip and turn provided a link to, not the avherald précis ) ...it’s all there in it’s ugly details but page 9 reveals that the Autopilot disengaged during the first excursion due to rudder pedal inputs.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 19:54
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Chilling similarities to the EK situation in DXB. Also the TOGA button not working after touchdown...
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