Fakers, fakers everywhere!
Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes .....
And also the interviewed flight instructor, "The public shouldn't worry as pilots are subjected to competency tests" !
So, I take it these people who accept the practice of bribing officials to become licensed don't actually fly in passenger jets. Or are they actually stupid enough not to be concerned that they may end up trustng their lives to someone who isn't qualified?
Beggars belief - I will never fly on a Indian registered aircraft.
And also the interviewed flight instructor, "The public shouldn't worry as pilots are subjected to competency tests" !
So, I take it these people who accept the practice of bribing officials to become licensed don't actually fly in passenger jets. Or are they actually stupid enough not to be concerned that they may end up trustng their lives to someone who isn't qualified?
Beggars belief - I will never fly on a Indian registered aircraft.
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Indian aviation makes it to the NYTimes, finally
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memories, memories and old wounds Potteroo for bringing up 1989. True we have a few dishonourable first officer chaps who ventured into the grey holes of Africa and Middle East only to surface in Korean as widebody skippers; and instructing the Koreans to boot! Miracles of miracles
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It seems Fakers/Bl
s are in all areas of Aviation I've met a few in my time, one held a highly paid post and was responsible for overseeing the maintenance of critical airfield equipment, he once asked a friend where are the PAPI's were located.
He had all the trappings of one who had paid for his degrees in engineering and enjoyed letting everyone know about it by placing them after his name various forms of communication.
Thankfully I doubt very much he will read this because he decided avaiation was no longer for him and left after a short spell when things got a little to hot for him
s are in all areas of Aviation I've met a few in my time, one held a highly paid post and was responsible for overseeing the maintenance of critical airfield equipment, he once asked a friend where are the PAPI's were located.He had all the trappings of one who had paid for his degrees in engineering and enjoyed letting everyone know about it by placing them after his name various forms of communication.
Thankfully I doubt very much he will read this because he decided avaiation was no longer for him and left after a short spell when things got a little to hot for him
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Quote: Dan from stupid land
And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.
I'm curious to know where u got this info, logbook in Italy had to be signed something like 20yr ago, now it's like in any others EASA country!!
And I don't know what's your personal story, but I believe the rate of fakers in Italy is the same as in any other country, except yours indeed, so please stay in your airline, fly 200hrs a month and don't piss people with stupid generic racist answer!!
And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.
I'm curious to know where u got this info, logbook in Italy had to be signed something like 20yr ago, now it's like in any others EASA country!!
And I don't know what's your personal story, but I believe the rate of fakers in Italy is the same as in any other country, except yours indeed, so please stay in your airline, fly 200hrs a month and don't piss people with stupid generic racist answer!!
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Dan winterland
Hey mate,
guess you are from UK.
I am Italian and i really think you don't know anything about Italian aviation environment...
We may have lots of problems but we do not have anything regarding fake hours and so on like the other countries mentioned in the thread.
Come to any flight school in Italy and you will see how Italian pilots are trained, both technically and ethically...
If you have any proof of what you say please post it here with names and facts otherwise please shut up and think twice before throwing mud over a whole world of professionals.
guess you are from UK.
I am Italian and i really think you don't know anything about Italian aviation environment...
We may have lots of problems but we do not have anything regarding fake hours and so on like the other countries mentioned in the thread.
Come to any flight school in Italy and you will see how Italian pilots are trained, both technically and ethically...
If you have any proof of what you say please post it here with names and facts otherwise please shut up and think twice before throwing mud over a whole world of professionals.
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In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.
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Dan winterland
Dear Mister, I have been in Italian Air Force for 18 years before joining Civil Aviation on a ATR with one strip on my uniform, I 've been through all carrier steps up to Captain and the only faked pilot\captain I met in Italy were one Swedish that was cought in Turkey last year, one Belgian , one Austrian, and one Britt that upgrade Himself as Captain coming from dubai and joining an Italian airlines as Captain. Unfortunately for him he got f...ked immediately by a papers crosscheck.
So dear Sir, please shut up and if you don't know what to do in hk ,try with flightsimulator games.
So dear Sir, please shut up and if you don't know what to do in hk ,try with flightsimulator games.
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My dear D.W. ,
I regret to say your company, ore one located where you say you are, has actually looked thoroughlly and quite liked several italian logbooks!
To be completely honest and to your credit they probably just liked the contents because the books themselves, especially the military ones, are quite crappy.
Bad quality (unheard of italian accessories!) and not really well preserved.
I can tell you they loved mine but gave me a well deserved bollocking for his state !
Anyway, in the military you don't even touch or have possession of your logbook and even when you leave to the airlines you only get a legal copy and not the original, in the old civvy system where every flight had to be checked aginst an ATC flights log stamped...self explanatory, don't now about nowadays.
I am not saying it's not hppening but so far the only one that got caught wasn't even italian!
You must be one of those always asking about Berlusconi 1.5 hours into the flight, accept my apologies if I have been rude to you on the subject, can't really reply properly there!
Ciao
I regret to say your company, ore one located where you say you are, has actually looked thoroughlly and quite liked several italian logbooks!
To be completely honest and to your credit they probably just liked the contents because the books themselves, especially the military ones, are quite crappy.
Bad quality (unheard of italian accessories!) and not really well preserved.
I can tell you they loved mine but gave me a well deserved bollocking for his state !
Anyway, in the military you don't even touch or have possession of your logbook and even when you leave to the airlines you only get a legal copy and not the original, in the old civvy system where every flight had to be checked aginst an ATC flights log stamped...self explanatory, don't now about nowadays.
I am not saying it's not hppening but so far the only one that got caught wasn't even italian!
You must be one of those always asking about Berlusconi 1.5 hours into the flight, accept my apologies if I have been rude to you on the subject, can't really reply properly there!
Ciao
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Fake qualifications!
Hey guys,there is no dearth of people getting fake credentials the world over.Few years back a pilot with JAA credentials from Germany who had worked as a first officer there joined an airline in India as TRE A320/330/340.How he got the qualifications was a mystery but when he was finally caught after releasing people on line in the capacity of an examiner he was sacked.To think he would have learnt a lesson but alas he pushed his luck and joined in Sri Lanka where rumour was that he was caught and imprisoned.Now even in countries where there are checks and double checks for fakers there are cases and unfortunately there are no fool proof methods to curtail this.
If people actually took time to read and understand what I have been saying and control their emotions, they may realise that I wasn't slagging off Italians but using the Italian license to demonstrate that a few who defraud the system can ruin it for the majority of honest people. I'm sure there are other nations who have the same problem - I can relate directly to Italy due to my knowlegde of one case. I used the example of my brother in law who was in fear of his job during one of Alitalia's troubled times and was looking for another job, just in case. He asked me to submit his CV as he was type rated on our aircraft. For some reason, my company won't look at the holders of Italian licences - he himself admitted it may be due to the problems with hours fraud. It may not be going on now, but it had been in the past - and as a result, he was excluded. The issue may well be over - but the reputation has stuck.
I know other airlines employ Italians - I know one of the Italians in CX. My company employed one Italian who held another nations licence (he's left now) - the problem wasn't with Italians but Italian issued licences. My company also didn't employ Americans until recently. When it advertises jobs, it gets thousands of applicants. It has the right to chose who it wants and in the initial sifting of CVs, it discards based on preferences, policy, politics and prejudices - just as any airline does.
The problem here is that someone thinks that Italian licences have been devalued by the fraudsters. Other countries qualifications have as well - I wouldn't want to be an Indian licence holder looking for work as an expat right now. The UK has had examples of pilot frauds and China has recently uncovered many falsified logbooks after it was discoverd that a Captain involved in a recent fatal crash had padded his hours. Policing is not just down to the authorities - it's everyone's responsibility. If you know of someone who is defrauding the sytem, you not only owe it to yourself to expose them, you also owe it to their passengers.
I know other airlines employ Italians - I know one of the Italians in CX. My company employed one Italian who held another nations licence (he's left now) - the problem wasn't with Italians but Italian issued licences. My company also didn't employ Americans until recently. When it advertises jobs, it gets thousands of applicants. It has the right to chose who it wants and in the initial sifting of CVs, it discards based on preferences, policy, politics and prejudices - just as any airline does.
The problem here is that someone thinks that Italian licences have been devalued by the fraudsters. Other countries qualifications have as well - I wouldn't want to be an Indian licence holder looking for work as an expat right now. The UK has had examples of pilot frauds and China has recently uncovered many falsified logbooks after it was discoverd that a Captain involved in a recent fatal crash had padded his hours. Policing is not just down to the authorities - it's everyone's responsibility. If you know of someone who is defrauding the sytem, you not only owe it to yourself to expose them, you also owe it to their passengers.
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Back to the creative Antipodeans, I recall one who turned up in Malaysia in 1990 and they found his log book post 1989 so transparently creative that they told him "thanks but no thanks". He moved a bit further west and approached a rapidly growing airline and found they were not so picky.
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Dan Winterland
I take it you're not CX then? No shortage of Italians here 
Anyway, we're agreed that fakers (whom, I believe, we have no more of in Italy than in any other European country) are bad for all airline pilots, a blight on our profession.
Anyway, we're agreed that fakers (whom, I believe, we have no more of in Italy than in any other European country) are bad for all airline pilots, a blight on our profession.
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It is not that there are people out there with fraudulent credentials and embellished flying experience, it is the system that does not prevent it.
Rules and regulations are only as strong as the backbone that enforces them. Have a weak CP or weak training system / culture / recruitment team at your airline and then foxes will go hunting.
Take India for example. Those of us with experience in that cesspit of utter corruption and [criminally] negligent safety and training departments can attest to fake hours and fake credentials as more of a norm than an non-norm.
Where does it start and end? OK, say a pilot does have a well earned ATP/ATPL. The airline structure and culture I witnessed at Air India was where pilots' line check and sim check forms were completed prior to departure or entry into the sim. Patterns, approaches and non-normals were ticked off as complete by the TRE/I that were never completed. So, does this pilot therefore really posses a correct, true and valid license to operate? This is the tip of the iceberg at that hell-hole acting as a disgraceful excuse of an airline.
I was abused by the heads of the safety and training dept for failing a 777 Capt in the sim for his inability to simply fly a raw data circuit with 15 kt x-wind:- as the sim profile dictated was the sortie. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I resigned. That said AI Capt was checked to line on a BOM-DXB-BOM flight 2 days later by his "batch-mate". Is this kind of culture not promoting "fake" credentials and min standards as much as those doing so from an initial issue level?
In truth there are some very, very professional local and expat pilots there. They are in the vast minority (my opinion) where by and large their efforts to correct the mess, speak up against the corrupt and negligent practices are shouted down by those of far higher standing seeking and existing only to protect the trail they leave behind and the cash flow they receive as a result.
Fakers are everywhere. But they exist in scenarios that allow them to.
Rules and regulations are only as strong as the backbone that enforces them. Have a weak CP or weak training system / culture / recruitment team at your airline and then foxes will go hunting.
Take India for example. Those of us with experience in that cesspit of utter corruption and [criminally] negligent safety and training departments can attest to fake hours and fake credentials as more of a norm than an non-norm.
Where does it start and end? OK, say a pilot does have a well earned ATP/ATPL. The airline structure and culture I witnessed at Air India was where pilots' line check and sim check forms were completed prior to departure or entry into the sim. Patterns, approaches and non-normals were ticked off as complete by the TRE/I that were never completed. So, does this pilot therefore really posses a correct, true and valid license to operate? This is the tip of the iceberg at that hell-hole acting as a disgraceful excuse of an airline.
I was abused by the heads of the safety and training dept for failing a 777 Capt in the sim for his inability to simply fly a raw data circuit with 15 kt x-wind:- as the sim profile dictated was the sortie. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I resigned. That said AI Capt was checked to line on a BOM-DXB-BOM flight 2 days later by his "batch-mate". Is this kind of culture not promoting "fake" credentials and min standards as much as those doing so from an initial issue level?
In truth there are some very, very professional local and expat pilots there. They are in the vast minority (my opinion) where by and large their efforts to correct the mess, speak up against the corrupt and negligent practices are shouted down by those of far higher standing seeking and existing only to protect the trail they leave behind and the cash flow they receive as a result.
Fakers are everywhere. But they exist in scenarios that allow them to.
Very true Top Tup. Some countries have corruption so ingrained in their culture that it seems the system is beyond hope. But in many places where the system does single out the frauds and punish them, there are still those who will escape the regualtion. That is where it's down to us, the honest pilots to do something about it. As a result of my post on this thread, I received a PM from an Italian pilot saying that he hadn't falsified his hours (I don't doubt that) and in his defence stated knew pilots flying for another airline (not Italian) who had. My reply to him was that he should report them if he knew this to be true. By accepting the fact that they had defrauded the system he was compliant in their deceipt. Our industry depends on the honesty of the pilots for it's integrity. Our customers lives depend on our skill and standards. Anything less than complete integrity is simply not acceptable.
Even the regulatory authorities who act don't go far enough. I mentioned the case of a pilot who fabricated a fictional RAF career in the country of my origianl licence issue - the UK. He was prosecuted, but still allowed to fly and later becmae a Captain with another airline. In my book, anyone who displays such a lack of integrity should not be allowed to hold such a position of authority again. He should have been excluded from holding a licence ever again in my opinion.
And some countries seem to making a concerted effort. In China, where corruption is common, there was a recent fatal accident of a regional jet. The investigation discovered the Captain had falsified his hours. Perhaps his lack of experience was a factor when he decided to continue the non-precision approach below the published minima and then crash, but the authorities investigated many pilots and found many others who had padded their hours. They have shown a willingness to act and thier action should improve the image of the aviation industry in that country.
Airlines should be on top of this problem as well. The possiblity of having an insurance claim invalidated because a pilot wasn't properly qualified shoud motivate them!
Those who have read Enest Gann's book 'Fate is the Hunter' may recall he mentioned a pilot who seemed to be not what he claimed. Despite mnay reservations, he was allowed to continue flying and later, Gann expressed regret at not acting when he later heard the pilot had crashed and killed many passengers.
Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover.
Even the regulatory authorities who act don't go far enough. I mentioned the case of a pilot who fabricated a fictional RAF career in the country of my origianl licence issue - the UK. He was prosecuted, but still allowed to fly and later becmae a Captain with another airline. In my book, anyone who displays such a lack of integrity should not be allowed to hold such a position of authority again. He should have been excluded from holding a licence ever again in my opinion.
And some countries seem to making a concerted effort. In China, where corruption is common, there was a recent fatal accident of a regional jet. The investigation discovered the Captain had falsified his hours. Perhaps his lack of experience was a factor when he decided to continue the non-precision approach below the published minima and then crash, but the authorities investigated many pilots and found many others who had padded their hours. They have shown a willingness to act and thier action should improve the image of the aviation industry in that country.
Airlines should be on top of this problem as well. The possiblity of having an insurance claim invalidated because a pilot wasn't properly qualified shoud motivate them!
Those who have read Enest Gann's book 'Fate is the Hunter' may recall he mentioned a pilot who seemed to be not what he claimed. Despite mnay reservations, he was allowed to continue flying and later, Gann expressed regret at not acting when he later heard the pilot had crashed and killed many passengers.
Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover.
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Those who have read Enest Gann's book 'Fate is the Hunter' may recall he mentioned a pilot who seemed to be not what he claimed. Despite mnay reservations, he was allowed to continue flying and later, Gann expressed regret at not acting when he later heard the pilot had crashed and killed many passengers.
Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover
Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover
Next name and shame those Aussie, Boer and latino fakers in Korean. Oops, we will have barrels and barrels of worms!
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San Pedro: what's your point?
I was not aware that safety, standards and legalities owned a specific nationality.
Liars and cheats do not posses specific passports. Those types however will seek the avenue of least resistance to act as they do: just as a thief chooses an open window as opposed to securely locked and guarded door.
What I have witnessed is the staunch defiance and pathetic, cheap cries of "racism" and xenophobia when a pilot or system is caught red handed and exposed and chooses the race or nationality card as a means divert cause and reason.
In my post I only mentioned my specific experience at Air India as that is what is relevant to this thread. That involved many locals and expats. Re-read my previous post of the system allowing these pilots to be let through the gates recruited via unscrupulous, deceitful and corrupt agencies, HR departments and regulatory bodies.
DW is right: they must be exposed. What I resent is that it is up to the lowly pilot at the grass roots level to risk vilification by exposing / whistle blow what everyone already damn-well knows:- mainly the agency, airline or regulatory body. And when or if lives are lost those with blood on their hands will ask "Who saw this coming? How did this happen??"
I was not aware that safety, standards and legalities owned a specific nationality.
Liars and cheats do not posses specific passports. Those types however will seek the avenue of least resistance to act as they do: just as a thief chooses an open window as opposed to securely locked and guarded door.
What I have witnessed is the staunch defiance and pathetic, cheap cries of "racism" and xenophobia when a pilot or system is caught red handed and exposed and chooses the race or nationality card as a means divert cause and reason.
In my post I only mentioned my specific experience at Air India as that is what is relevant to this thread. That involved many locals and expats. Re-read my previous post of the system allowing these pilots to be let through the gates recruited via unscrupulous, deceitful and corrupt agencies, HR departments and regulatory bodies.
DW is right: they must be exposed. What I resent is that it is up to the lowly pilot at the grass roots level to risk vilification by exposing / whistle blow what everyone already damn-well knows:- mainly the agency, airline or regulatory body. And when or if lives are lost those with blood on their hands will ask "Who saw this coming? How did this happen??"
Last edited by TopTup; 4th May 2011 at 01:43.
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i suspect SP's point is that skygods are quick " out " nationals in 3rd world but balk at exposing those from their home countries. In KAL, when union f/os ask prominent expat captains about some suspected dodgy foreign captains, all they get are stonewalls!
