Fakers, fakers everywhere!
L'enfant Terrible
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Well my first commercial job was chucking a 1960s Czech-built turboprop round the Congo. Pretty far removed from the Airbus skill-set!
I'm not saying you're wrong 100%, but in recent economic circumstances people have been taking all sorts of flying jobs in all sorts of machines. The ATPL could become a dying breed with the more airline-specific MPL, but that's a whole new can of worms!
I'm not saying you're wrong 100%, but in recent economic circumstances people have been taking all sorts of flying jobs in all sorts of machines. The ATPL could become a dying breed with the more airline-specific MPL, but that's a whole new can of worms!
US main line jet operators all operate with all FAA licensed ATPL crews. They are trained in a system which puts the emphasis on demonstrated in aircraft skills and not on mastering reams of theoretical knowledge like the UK/EU ATPL process.
Since they have the lowest accident rate of any juristiction, IMO they have the right approach. I think any dispationate attempt to tie the content of the theory of the ATP course to actual demonstrated operating problem areas/incident/accidents would show that virtually all of the current ATPL CAA/JAA/EASA ground school is utterly irrelevant to what pilots actually need to know.
I respect the effort you guys put ib to passing all the theory exams but in my personal experience the FAA system on average produces better pilots.
Since they have the lowest accident rate of any juristiction, IMO they have the right approach. I think any dispationate attempt to tie the content of the theory of the ATP course to actual demonstrated operating problem areas/incident/accidents would show that virtually all of the current ATPL CAA/JAA/EASA ground school is utterly irrelevant to what pilots actually need to know.
I respect the effort you guys put ib to passing all the theory exams but in my personal experience the FAA system on average produces better pilots.
Drain Bamaged
Me too! I respect the effort with all the theory exams.
Things like knowing the amount of molecules your windshield contain...
Might not help much in case of a decompression though...
Things like knowing the amount of molecules your windshield contain...
Might not help much in case of a decompression though...
PT6A
If you take out the 9/11 crashes which obviously were out of the control of the airlines then the stats clearly show that for the last 20 years the lowest fleet incident/accident rates in the world are for mainline jet operations by United States airlines.
Bottom line is that FAA ATP license holders holds somehow seem to be doing a pretty good job without knowing how to derive the mathematical formulas behind the forces affecting a Gyro, or which way the wind blows in India in June.
If you take out the 9/11 crashes which obviously were out of the control of the airlines then the stats clearly show that for the last 20 years the lowest fleet incident/accident rates in the world are for mainline jet operations by United States airlines.
Bottom line is that FAA ATP license holders holds somehow seem to be doing a pretty good job without knowing how to derive the mathematical formulas behind the forces affecting a Gyro, or which way the wind blows in India in June.
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There is no possible way to support the 14 ludicrously irrelevant JAA ATPL exams by saying that the pilot may one day get a job in the Belgian Congo (or its modern-day equivalent).
This is because the exam candidate forgets the vast majority of the stuff within a few weeks of sitting the exam.
Nowadays the big FTOs cover the syllabus quickly and then hammer the question bank because that is the only practical way to get the 75%, given the number of questions which are ambiguous, misleading, or simply wrong.
By the time the chap has logged the 500hrs of multi crew time, the theory is long gone...
And the name of the wind, too 
This is because the exam candidate forgets the vast majority of the stuff within a few weeks of sitting the exam.
Nowadays the big FTOs cover the syllabus quickly and then hammer the question bank because that is the only practical way to get the 75%, given the number of questions which are ambiguous, misleading, or simply wrong.
By the time the chap has logged the 500hrs of multi crew time, the theory is long gone...
or which way the wind blows in India in June
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Leave us 89er's out of it. There were few pilots be either a Skipper or F/O that were not capable of going on to greater things. They certainly were not 400 hr blokes they are putting in now. Most were bush bashers, not cadets, most were good blokes, good pilots, capable pilots, and as a check and training bloke I should know. Very few fakers left Australia, most would have only been a asset.
Teresa,
Certainly not too many fakes exported after '89, if any, but we certainly imported a few to get Ansett and TAA up and running again.
Not to mention the old TNT/Transcorp freighter.
Tootle pip!!
Certainly not too many fakes exported after '89, if any, but we certainly imported a few to get Ansett and TAA up and running again.
Not to mention the old TNT/Transcorp freighter.
Tootle pip!!
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I went to the US to get my ATR after '89, and, (to cut a very long story short), along with a couple of mates, switched from one dodgy training establishment (who were not delivering the promised goods) to what seemed to be a less dodgy one.
The very unhappy manager of the training school I was leaving told me that the place I was going to had made a small fortune in the last few months putting pilots about to leave for Australia through a quickie ATR course. I.e. some, if not quite a few of the American "captains" who came out to "save" Australia hadn't been captains very long at all before their departure from the US.
It wouldn't have taken Ansett and Australian any more effort than to check the date of their new captains' ATR certificates, but I don't think they were too concerned about such trivialities at the time.
The very unhappy manager of the training school I was leaving told me that the place I was going to had made a small fortune in the last few months putting pilots about to leave for Australia through a quickie ATR course. I.e. some, if not quite a few of the American "captains" who came out to "save" Australia hadn't been captains very long at all before their departure from the US.
It wouldn't have taken Ansett and Australian any more effort than to check the date of their new captains' ATR certificates, but I don't think they were too concerned about such trivialities at the time.
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To stimulate discussion ...
Any thoughts on the following:
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4681...fakers-go.html
Anyone at KAL have their memories triggered?
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4681...fakers-go.html
Anyone at KAL have their memories triggered?
As someone who did the frozen ATPL in the 1990ties pre-JAA, along with the IR and CPL, I have to say I fully support IO540's conclusions. It does go further than that however and has, to a large extent, caused the exodus of a huge part of the GA community from lowly PPL's to full ATPL's to go the FAA route. The result of which is that there is a ton of N / VP and the likes registered aircraft in Europe these days.
EASA of course is fighting this vigorously and has, with the EASA FCL released not too long ago, forced quite a lot of people to now to redo all they did in the FAA syllabus again in the JAA and later EASA one if they wish to continue to operate their N-Registered airplanes in Europe. That is why quite a few pilots who have gotten their licenses and hours in the FAA world now are faced with grounding in Europe and get to know the JAA syllabus rather more intimately than they care for.
There are those who call the N-reg crowd "fakers". While I did all my stuff in Europe and never flew in the US but for a validated PPL, I disagree strongly with that notion. The reason the FAA philosophy differs so greatly from JAA is pretty much in the way regulators in Europe have seen aviation as opposed to the American way. Therefore it is not suprprising that when JAA and now EASA put the hammer down on the FAA system by no longer accepting anything the FAA put to paper, the big escape started. Likewise, there are thousands of FAA licensed pilots who would not get a medical in Europe, as the requirements for an initial medical include stuff like your BMI and certain issues in vision e.t.c. which won't harm your flying one bit but simply, because someone said it had to be so, is in there. So the new licencing requirement in Europe is going to ground a few thousand pilots, at least here.
The other issue of course is the one where one has to ask the question what 200 or 400 or how many hours in VFR Cessnas will contribute to one's ability to operate an Airbus or Boeing. IMHO, not a great deal. And by now, FAA rules on this are even more restrictive, in order to FO on an airliner you now need over a thousand hours (correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that was the consequence of the Colgan crash).
IMHO, and from what I have seen, experience which will help you is experience which has as much variation as there is possible. The Military still is one of those paths, but not the only one. I for one would trust someone more who has done his hour gathering on a variety of airplane classes and in different parts of the world successfully than someone who has been teaching newbies the traffic circuit for 5 years but has never really left it. I've seen 2000 hour pilots here who have never left a 200 mile circle around their airfield. Is that experience? On the other hand, is flying GA airplanes around Europe or the the whole US on a regular basis, IFR, possibly the better way to collect those hours?
I have huge respect for the 20k + pilots who have gotten their hours on a wide spectrum of aviation. Sometimes, my respect for a high time Captain who advertizes that fact like a doctorate is a bit diminished if I find out that he has in reality spent 80% + of this time on the same airplane, flying the same routes and on autopilot. Not that I'd say this is not experience. But to turn around the wheel a bit, would someone like that be qualified to take a GA plane like IO540 or I operate through Europe after his retirement without some serious re-training? I've seen quite some indications contrary to this.
Therefore I believe that instead of throwing our flight hours or experience into the ring in a never ending "mine is bigger" contest, all of us who love aviation for what it is should try to do the utmost to
-pass on our experience, whatever it may be, onto those joining our ranks.
-use all that is in our power to see to it that the path to the desirable seats are not taken over by overconfident and often enough incapable bureaucrats who have nothing better to do than to throw stones onto a otherwise pretty straightforward process of experience gathering.
I think all of you who are out there on the airliners and GA planes have seen it happen back and forth. There will be people who have the talent and ability to go on a RH seat at 400 hours, provided their training was done professionally and adequately for the job which awaits them. At the same time, there are people around who won't succeed even after 10'000 hours of lucky escapes to become real aviators as opposed to system operators and "drivers". The current system of training often enough punishes those who are of the former cathegory and will, funds provided, let people of the latter achieve the jobs they are not made for.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
EASA of course is fighting this vigorously and has, with the EASA FCL released not too long ago, forced quite a lot of people to now to redo all they did in the FAA syllabus again in the JAA and later EASA one if they wish to continue to operate their N-Registered airplanes in Europe. That is why quite a few pilots who have gotten their licenses and hours in the FAA world now are faced with grounding in Europe and get to know the JAA syllabus rather more intimately than they care for.
There are those who call the N-reg crowd "fakers". While I did all my stuff in Europe and never flew in the US but for a validated PPL, I disagree strongly with that notion. The reason the FAA philosophy differs so greatly from JAA is pretty much in the way regulators in Europe have seen aviation as opposed to the American way. Therefore it is not suprprising that when JAA and now EASA put the hammer down on the FAA system by no longer accepting anything the FAA put to paper, the big escape started. Likewise, there are thousands of FAA licensed pilots who would not get a medical in Europe, as the requirements for an initial medical include stuff like your BMI and certain issues in vision e.t.c. which won't harm your flying one bit but simply, because someone said it had to be so, is in there. So the new licencing requirement in Europe is going to ground a few thousand pilots, at least here.
The other issue of course is the one where one has to ask the question what 200 or 400 or how many hours in VFR Cessnas will contribute to one's ability to operate an Airbus or Boeing. IMHO, not a great deal. And by now, FAA rules on this are even more restrictive, in order to FO on an airliner you now need over a thousand hours (correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that was the consequence of the Colgan crash).
IMHO, and from what I have seen, experience which will help you is experience which has as much variation as there is possible. The Military still is one of those paths, but not the only one. I for one would trust someone more who has done his hour gathering on a variety of airplane classes and in different parts of the world successfully than someone who has been teaching newbies the traffic circuit for 5 years but has never really left it. I've seen 2000 hour pilots here who have never left a 200 mile circle around their airfield. Is that experience? On the other hand, is flying GA airplanes around Europe or the the whole US on a regular basis, IFR, possibly the better way to collect those hours?
I have huge respect for the 20k + pilots who have gotten their hours on a wide spectrum of aviation. Sometimes, my respect for a high time Captain who advertizes that fact like a doctorate is a bit diminished if I find out that he has in reality spent 80% + of this time on the same airplane, flying the same routes and on autopilot. Not that I'd say this is not experience. But to turn around the wheel a bit, would someone like that be qualified to take a GA plane like IO540 or I operate through Europe after his retirement without some serious re-training? I've seen quite some indications contrary to this.
Therefore I believe that instead of throwing our flight hours or experience into the ring in a never ending "mine is bigger" contest, all of us who love aviation for what it is should try to do the utmost to
-pass on our experience, whatever it may be, onto those joining our ranks.
-use all that is in our power to see to it that the path to the desirable seats are not taken over by overconfident and often enough incapable bureaucrats who have nothing better to do than to throw stones onto a otherwise pretty straightforward process of experience gathering.
I think all of you who are out there on the airliners and GA planes have seen it happen back and forth. There will be people who have the talent and ability to go on a RH seat at 400 hours, provided their training was done professionally and adequately for the job which awaits them. At the same time, there are people around who won't succeed even after 10'000 hours of lucky escapes to become real aviators as opposed to system operators and "drivers". The current system of training often enough punishes those who are of the former cathegory and will, funds provided, let people of the latter achieve the jobs they are not made for.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
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More specific fakers
Well what about specific high profile fakers?
The question posed on other threads and other forum regards a certain "Bristol Cowboy" with an interesting past in the middle east, Africa and the UK, who may have flown for KAL and how he "legitimised" himself. FAA ATP obtained on faked foreign licence?
Where do these guys go and khan they hide their past?
Anyone boeing to comment?
The question posed on other threads and other forum regards a certain "Bristol Cowboy" with an interesting past in the middle east, Africa and the UK, who may have flown for KAL and how he "legitimised" himself. FAA ATP obtained on faked foreign licence?
Where do these guys go and khan they hide their past?
Anyone boeing to comment?
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Certainly not too many fakes exported after '89, if any
