The Greed at the Top of Air Canada
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If he were truly greedy, he would have no problem retiring from Air Canada, collecting his pension, and then earing a top salary from Turkish Airlines on top of his pension. "Double Dipping" would produce much more money for him, but he is not interested in more money. He only wants the basic human dignity of continuing to work at his place of choice.
The only greedy ones I see are the impatient youth with dollar signs in their eyes lusting after the higher paying job.
A very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires "Late".
No career stagnation, and no cost to the pension plan, or company.
A win-win for everyone.
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Seniority is an antiquated system in my view. It restricts free trade, thus lowers terms and conditions in the long run. It's a good system for management because they know they have very experienced Pilots by the short and currlies. If Pilots want to move on, because they dislike something about the company, they can't because they are trapped. They know they will have to start a new job at the very bottom, on a pittance of a salary. How fair is that? Experience should not be rewarded this way. This would happen in no other industry. Could you imagine a high earning broker from the city moving on and having to start his new job as a tea boy? It just wouldn't happen. I think promotion should be based on merit, but leave and base transfers on date of joining.
And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby
And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby
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Seniority is an antiquated system in my view. It restricts free trade, thus lowers terms and conditions in the long run. It's a good system for management because they know they have very experienced Pilots by the short and currlies. If Pilots want to move on, because they dislike something about the company, they can't because they are trapped. They know they will have to start a new job at the very bottom, on a pittance of a salary. How fair is that? Experience should not be rewarded this way. This would happen in no other industry. Could you imagine a high earning broker from the city moving on and having to start his new job as a tea boy? It just wouldn't happen. I think promotion should be based on merit, but leave and base transfers on date of joining.
And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby
And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby
Good Morning L.I.S.
You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.
Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension? As far as "double dipping" Mr Ennis is going to THY where he will be making much more than at Air Canada. Oh this one is very difficult, until it was fashionable to have a collective agreement which I might add was contractually agreed by both company and legal teams from both sides reviewed word by word it was put to the membership for a vote. Guess what the majority of the union accepted that provision through voting. Now a minority in the 3,000 (5 percent) pilots is now taking this to Canada Human Rights Tribunal because their human rights are being violated
Your argument would have more intellectual credibility if you mentioned if you either showed up at a council meeting with someone to second your motion to have the L.E.C. take your concerns to the M.E.C. or run for union office with your platform being the abolishment of contractually oh sorry "FORCED" retirement.
From the reader's comments in response to Mr Ennis's Globe and Mail article and from PPRuNe there is much thoughtful discussion here than at AvCanada which seems to produce discourse analogous to phyla pastry which if you have not tried it is light and fluffy.
You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.
Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension? As far as "double dipping" Mr Ennis is going to THY where he will be making much more than at Air Canada. Oh this one is very difficult, until it was fashionable to have a collective agreement which I might add was contractually agreed by both company and legal teams from both sides reviewed word by word it was put to the membership for a vote. Guess what the majority of the union accepted that provision through voting. Now a minority in the 3,000 (5 percent) pilots is now taking this to Canada Human Rights Tribunal because their human rights are being violated
Your argument would have more intellectual credibility if you mentioned if you either showed up at a council meeting with someone to second your motion to have the L.E.C. take your concerns to the M.E.C. or run for union office with your platform being the abolishment of contractually oh sorry "FORCED" retirement.
From the reader's comments in response to Mr Ennis's Globe and Mail article and from PPRuNe there is much thoughtful discussion here than at AvCanada which seems to produce discourse analogous to phyla pastry which if you have not tried it is light and fluffy.
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"Would you mind if Michael Ennis retires from Air Canada and gets hired at your company as a direct entry Captain?"
I would not mind at all if the traffic was two way. The problem with companies that adopt a silly seniority system is it's a closed shop, the traffic is only one way. I bet if we had a free Market the money would go up!
I would not mind at all if the traffic was two way. The problem with companies that adopt a silly seniority system is it's a closed shop, the traffic is only one way. I bet if we had a free Market the money would go up!
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Good Morning L.I.S.
You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.
You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.
Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension? As far as "double dipping" Mr Ennis is going to THY where he will be making much more than at Air Canada. Oh this one is very difficult, until it was fashionable to have a collective agreement which I might add was contractually agreed by both company and legal teams from both sides reviewed word by word it was put to the membership for a vote. Guess what the majority of the union accepted that provision through voting. Now a minority in the 3,000 (5 percent) pilots is now taking this to Canada Human Rights Tribunal because their human rights are being violated
Your argument would have more intellectual credibility if you mentioned if you either showed up at a council meeting with someone to second your motion to have the L.E.C. take your concerns to the M.E.C. or run for union office with your platform being the abolishment of contractually oh sorry "FORCED" retirement.
From the reader's comments in response to Mr Ennis's Globe and Mail article and from PPRuNe there is much thoughtful discussion here than at AvCanada which seems to produce discourse analogous to phyla pastry which if you have not tried it is light and fluffy.
The Air Canada contract has been found to contravene the law of the land. Appeals are in the works, but right now it is futile and childish to defend your position by saying "we voted on it".
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One sock, having worked at a company which did not have a senioity system and having been in corporate for the last thirteen years rather than get into some discussion of the merits of such a system I will simply recount a little story in which I had the staring part. Twas a dark and dirty night, moderate to severe ice forcast and reported from sea level to ten thousand feet, my trusty DC4 night frieghter had the boots removed in the name of efficiency and the two right prop de icers were U/S, the late night DC6 had elected not to go even though all his systems were working and he could climb on top, the captain by the way held a DFC and a DFM, so his courage and judgment were not in question. In view of all this I elected to sit it out untill the crap moved further South, having made this decision I recieved a call from the Chief Pilot, known to all as Captain Moron, during the conversation he let it be known that if I didnt go "my suitibility to command was to be reviewd" , when I pointed out that the DC6 had scrubbed I was told,"thats different, he has pasengers" , next action was to hand the phone to the DCA inspector who was in the building, problem solved. One Sock, this is just a single example of what happens in many outfits without a seniority system which prevents idiots like this from putting presure on pilots, I wont even go into what Ive seen in corporate! And by the way,I did move on to a company with a seniority system, and yes I went to the right seat, and was glad to do so given my previous experience.
Good Afternoon L.I.S.
So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?
In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?
From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.
You did have a choice Sir.
So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?
In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?
From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.
You did have a choice Sir.
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Clunkdriver,
Good story,but if someone in an influential position is truly out to get you, surely a seniority system is not going to prevent you from getting the chop. It just means you will be chopped when your number comes up. Politics are a fact of life in any working environment.
Good story,but if someone in an influential position is truly out to get you, surely a seniority system is not going to prevent you from getting the chop. It just means you will be chopped when your number comes up. Politics are a fact of life in any working environment.
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Good Afternoon L.I.S.
So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?
In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?
From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.
You did have a choice Sir.
So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?
In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?
From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.
You did have a choice Sir.
But I don't blame you for your myopic views. ACPA has been doing a good job of keeping the truth from the membership.
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LIS, I dont know where this "everybody was hired young" came from, sure wasnt on my intake, {In the first group after no hiring for fourteen years I seem to recal} I bought five years pension time back and still didnt get quite the full 35 in, however having kept the first wife Im doing OK!
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LIS, I dont know where this "everybody was hired young" came from, sure wasnt on my intake, {In the first group after no hiring for fourteen years I seem to recal} I bought five years pension time back and still didnt get quite the full 35 in, however having kept the first wife Im doing OK!
The Air Canada pension was designed for pilots who reach 35 years of service. With your military time, you were an exception rather than the rule. As time goes on, fewer and fewer pilots will meet that magic 35 year mark. For pilots hired today it will be almost impossible to reach 35 years of service. Big changes are in order, and working past 60 is a good start.
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LIS, I dont think any on my intake made the full 35 years, I base this on the fact that the only young guy died at about 50 years old and all but three retired ahead of me and those three were right behind me on the way out, whats worth a thought or two is the mortality rate of the retirees, my course reunion I think would fit in a phone booth,. {Any day above ground is a good one!}
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Clunk, what year did you retire? You may find out that today's retirees are living longer than ever thanks to the miracles of modern medicine and healthier living.
My father started working in 1944.(no, he's not a pilot) He took an early retirement package at age 61 and has been living on a Defined Benefits pension now for 26 years. He is currently 87 and in perfect health.
In the future, we could have some retirees living to be 100 or more and being a drain on the pension plan. Letting pilots work past 60 will be one way to deal with this.
My father started working in 1944.(no, he's not a pilot) He took an early retirement package at age 61 and has been living on a Defined Benefits pension now for 26 years. He is currently 87 and in perfect health.
In the future, we could have some retirees living to be 100 or more and being a drain on the pension plan. Letting pilots work past 60 will be one way to deal with this.
Good Afternoon L.I.S.
Just so you know I did not retire with 35 years as I joined late due to "myopia" which in a funny way validates your comment. Ah ten years in so why are you not getting involved here? Afraid of making you views known in a public venue?
A union whether being C.A.L.P.A., A.C.P.A., or A.L.P.A. is as only good as its membership so get off your butt and contribute. If people are not receptive to your views educate them from the inside not by having it forced on by an outside agency. ]Still waiting for your points on the 2% penalty, capping point on pension at 35 years, contributions for those going past 35 years of service, disbursement level cap, legal teams from the company and union going over the legal implications of the contract, I know of an abundance of military types who took advantage of the buyback rule so it is ok to defer to "Clunk Drivers" knowledge not to challenge him as he lived it you did not.
I would be remiss in saying that I have done some volunteer work for both unions very small stuff compared to WAWCON, Negotiating etc I found it took a lot of time, very tiring but rewarding try it you might have a different perspective.
Just so you know I did not retire with 35 years as I joined late due to "myopia" which in a funny way validates your comment. Ah ten years in so why are you not getting involved here? Afraid of making you views known in a public venue?
A union whether being C.A.L.P.A., A.C.P.A., or A.L.P.A. is as only good as its membership so get off your butt and contribute. If people are not receptive to your views educate them from the inside not by having it forced on by an outside agency. ]Still waiting for your points on the 2% penalty, capping point on pension at 35 years, contributions for those going past 35 years of service, disbursement level cap, legal teams from the company and union going over the legal implications of the contract, I know of an abundance of military types who took advantage of the buyback rule so it is ok to defer to "Clunk Drivers" knowledge not to challenge him as he lived it you did not.
I would be remiss in saying that I have done some volunteer work for both unions very small stuff compared to WAWCON, Negotiating etc I found it took a lot of time, very tiring but rewarding try it you might have a different perspective.
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seniority sucks...
if you dont have any...
Its the only way to prevent a race to the bottom. Strict selection to get employed and a seniority system to prevent anybody to take a shortcut and bypass your fellow pilots.
Offcourse this sucks for the guys who are not flying for a major airline. But that has usually a reason and that is not the seniority system.
Its the only way to prevent a race to the bottom. Strict selection to get employed and a seniority system to prevent anybody to take a shortcut and bypass your fellow pilots.
Offcourse this sucks for the guys who are not flying for a major airline. But that has usually a reason and that is not the seniority system.
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767-300ER..........Perfectly said! FP = Fly Past?
It is very amusing to listen to the FP60 cabal rant about how ACPA is getting hammered every time it turns around...
It is amusing to read the revisionist history by a few that claim this all would have be averted had the retirement age been raised to 65 when a few demanded this.... right, and then some poor, recently turned 66 pilot would have wandered to the CHRT and claim that his "rights" have been infringed...
PS... As far as I can tell, the FP60 cabal have only won the reinstatement of 2 pilots on a non-precedent basis, failed to get a cease and desist order, lost a Judicial Review of CHRT ruling for VK, and now we await a second review of the VK with respect of the BFOR....and a Federal Court of Appeal hearing....and a parliamentary loss of the legislation....
While you guys wait for the next couple of years, enjoy your retirement....
It is very amusing to listen to the FP60 cabal rant about how ACPA is getting hammered every time it turns around...
It is amusing to read the revisionist history by a few that claim this all would have be averted had the retirement age been raised to 65 when a few demanded this.... right, and then some poor, recently turned 66 pilot would have wandered to the CHRT and claim that his "rights" have been infringed...
PS... As far as I can tell, the FP60 cabal have only won the reinstatement of 2 pilots on a non-precedent basis, failed to get a cease and desist order, lost a Judicial Review of CHRT ruling for VK, and now we await a second review of the VK with respect of the BFOR....and a Federal Court of Appeal hearing....and a parliamentary loss of the legislation....
While you guys wait for the next couple of years, enjoy your retirement....
I do not want to bring this one up to the top as there a lot of aviation news items right now but I will clarify the F.P.
What F.P. stands for is fly past 60 sometimes you will see the F.P. or fly till you die or other variations.
There is a web site dedicated for it if you Google fly past 60 you will find it. I will not comment on it as I have not visited the web site as I have no need to avail myself of this information
It was set up by one of Air Canada's retired pilots who also practices law in CYWG.
What F.P. stands for is fly past 60 sometimes you will see the F.P. or fly till you die or other variations.
There is a web site dedicated for it if you Google fly past 60 you will find it. I will not comment on it as I have not visited the web site as I have no need to avail myself of this information
It was set up by one of Air Canada's retired pilots who also practices law in CYWG.
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I believe strongly that mandatory retirement at age 60 should be abolished.
It is contrary to the persons basic human rights not to be discriminated against based on age. Yes if the guy is doing long haul and can not stay awake or starts to fail sim rides then a respectful mandatory retirement would be the logical conclusion. I do believe that safety is paramount.
But most of those who are claiming to be happy to retire at 60 do not live in the reality that many of us are looking at; the avg new hire age is about 35 at Air Canada and climbing so many of us are looking at starting our 37k$ salary at at Air Canada in our late 30's (try raising a family on that in Toronto). Please at least give me a fighting chance of making my way up the pay scale and earning a descent retirement the fact is that some of us might need to work past 60 to accomplish this.
Respectfully submitted.
It is contrary to the persons basic human rights not to be discriminated against based on age. Yes if the guy is doing long haul and can not stay awake or starts to fail sim rides then a respectful mandatory retirement would be the logical conclusion. I do believe that safety is paramount.
But most of those who are claiming to be happy to retire at 60 do not live in the reality that many of us are looking at; the avg new hire age is about 35 at Air Canada and climbing so many of us are looking at starting our 37k$ salary at at Air Canada in our late 30's (try raising a family on that in Toronto). Please at least give me a fighting chance of making my way up the pay scale and earning a descent retirement the fact is that some of us might need to work past 60 to accomplish this.
Respectfully submitted.