Crash-Cork Airport

[Agaricus bisporus]

Since whe has the presence or absence of handling agents had a bearing on the availability of a weather diversion, even in a tinpot outfit? Desireability maybe, but not availability.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I'm surprised that you fellows didn't pick up on the idea of flap assymetry below 200's causing an unexpected roll. as I mentioned, many operators fly the approach with half flaps and select full flaps upon visual contact.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Overrun, you don't carry Taxi fuel, FRF or Contingency fuel? Just your trip fuel. OK.

[rlsbutler]

Press-on-itis

Some of our friends out there are going to be very pompous with me, but I must try to say something in support of press-on-itis.

My story is really a military one, although I would argue that this is essentially – really essentially – a personal matter. Virtually all my flying was military.

Winter 1960-61; thick fog envelopes a training airfield where the student pilots fly jet trainers and where twin-piston Valettas and Varsities are provided for the student navigators. The pilot students are lounging in the crew room on the runway side of a large hangar. Outside of the multi-framed picture window one can just make out the nearest of the line of Vampires, silently dripping onto the concrete. A distant rumble becomes the steady beat of a Varsity’s engines. Like Meercats we all track the invisible source of this sound, from the right corner to the centre of that window. Just when we might be starting to fidget, almost simultaneously the sound becomes “squawk-squawk” and cuts to a low rumble. With perhaps a couple of sharp pops, the sound disappears to our left along the unseen runway.

The squadron that flew these Varsities was manned, I think entirely, by ex-WWII pilots of the Polish Air Force. They still wore the hairy battledress suits, that we cadets had but that were by then unfashionable for officers. All had the medal ribbons of WWII, often including one that we were told was the Polish equivalent to the VC. They seemed to speak no English, a position I think they reserved for all cadets and most officers above the rank of squadron leader.

*****

This Cork thread hints at a pilot perhaps pushing his luck and it hints at chief pilots requiring such behaviour.

There have been perhaps five times when I have, with due consideration, carried out decisions (twice involving fog on the runway) that may be in this category. I will always say that I was right to do so. What was important in retrospect was that (1) I was a pilot properly confident of my own competence and of the system of which I was part (2) noone was pushing me (3) I judged that I would make a difference for the good of my Service (4) in accepting the challenge in front of me, I would be better able to take on tougher challenges at another time.

I think, like O’Neill No66 (16 Feb 08:33), I would not have been pushed from what seemed right for fear of the chief pilot. But I would always have been interested to push my own professional development and to achieve a better result than that which mundane regulation would permit. If that is wrong, don’t blame me – blame those heroic shadows from the past in their rough serge uniforms.

If it seems I too am being pompous in my own way, I would happily also own up to some really dodgy little stunts to which the above does certainly not apply.

[Love_joy]

Easy boys, easy!

Overrun, you need to clarify your earlier post where you mention 'trip' fuel.

Trip fuel is the fuel you plan to burn going from A-B, as I'm sure you well know. It does not account for contingency, final reserve, alternate, start-up/taxi or APU.

With WX like they had on the day, I'm sure they had it in bucket loads, with a bit for Mum on top.

This is all thread drift anyway. The investigators are top guys and gals, they will get to the bottom of it, I'll leave the pontificating to the professionals.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Again. Overun, you don't carry Taxi fuel, FRF or Contingency fuel? Just your trip fuel?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sigh over 500 posts and the same old rubbish from the truely clueless keeps coming back.

Pretty much the only posts that have any value are the ones from pilots who have commuter T-prop experience.

Guys/gals who are sweating it out in the trenches, treat this as a wake up call. Beware of the momemtum that builds up with multiple approaches and don't let yourself get pushed into thinking "I have got to make this approach work"

[overun]

Love Joy, it rather depends on where the trip is going.

[CarbHeatIn]

The fact that they were able to hold for as long as they did would confirm that they dispatched with more than just trip fuel.

[Irish Steve]

Since whe has the presence or absence of handling agents had a bearing on the availability of a weather diversion, even in a tinpot outfit? Desireability maybe, but not availability.

If there are no movement arrangements or handling arrangements with a airfield, there is a distinct chance that the aircraft will not be allowed to depart until all the relevant bills have been paid. Not all the small operators have an on board aircraft Diners card or similar,, and I doubt that the flight crew were carrying that sort of "spare" cash in Euro in their wallets.

Both of the other possible alternates are small, do not have many scheduled operations, and do not have full time handling, so arranging even the basics of handling and coach or taxis to get pax to destination and the like would not have been quick or automatic.

Strictly speaking, they should not have needed customs or Immigration, but as a flight from the UK area, there are now checks carried out by Gardai, and these checks are not available at smaller airfields without prior notice.

As non scheduled destinations, it's also possible that they may not have had full up to date documentation for either of those airfields in the aircraft.

[Gillespie Field]

Irish Steve, since it's obvious that you haven't a clue what your talking about could you do us all a favour and stop posting this rubbish.

[overun]

Personally, l think it doubtful.

[Topcover]

Irish Steve, the other airports that you refer to are very capable of dealing with incoming diversions at short notice. Loads of experience and procedures in place to provide efficient handling and all the required services.

[Irish Steve]

Irish Steve, since it's obvious that you haven't a clue what your talking about could you do us all a favour and stop posting this rubbish.

Oh?

I have had the situation where due weather, the nearest diversion that I could use when my primary went out due strong cross wind was over 90 minutes flying time, over Southern England at 20:00, unless I was prepared to declare a Mayday. As I still had over 5 Hrs fuel on board, it wasn't an issue, only because I'd left with full tanks. There were a number of other airfields closer, but they were also unusable due to the weather. The forecast had been wrong, and what was supposed to have been 15 Kts had increased at short notice to 25G40 across the runway, which was outside limits.

I have also sat and listened on radio to a small aircraft having to be radar vectored to an ILS that they didn't have the plates on board for.

Things like this are not supposed to happen, but for all sorts of reasons, they do, and sometimes end up being lesson that others learn from.

[A pumps]

Irish steve.

Stop fooling yourself, You were on MS flight sim that night.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Irish Steve,

Waterford & Kerry both self handle and have plentiful pax facilitys, Kerry/Ryanair with 3 flights a day and Waterford with 2 Aer Arran flights daily.

For all we know that was where the guy was going after the fatefull approach with fuel to spare, both Waterford & Kerry transmit an ATIS, he may have had a plan in place that never got used.

Land, apologise to pax, get ops on the phone and use the ground ops managers personal credit card.

Any port in a storm and much better than the alternative

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Irish Steve

Oh?

I have had the situation where due weather, the nearest diversion that I could use when my primary went out due strong cross wind was over 90 minutes flying time, over Southern England at 20:00, unless I was prepared to declare a Mayday. As I still had over 5 Hrs fuel on board, it wasn't an issue, only because I'd left with full tanks. There were a number of other airfields closer, but they were also unusable due to the weather. The forecast had been wrong, and what was supposed to have been 15 Kts had increased at short notice to 25G40 across the runway, which was outside limits.

.

PPL posers get to arrive at the destination with 5 hrs of extra gas, commercial operators in this kind of scenario (ie commuter T-prop with this sector distance and pax load) never do. I think it is time you stopped commenting on things you know nothing about.

I don't know anything about gliding which is why I don't post on gliding bulletin boards. Perhaps you should show the same courtesy to professional pilots ......

[Fliegenderflieger]

The Simflyer and "want to be a pilot" forum

Since a long time i think, whenever i read a little bit here, that, meanwhile, PPRUNE is a forum for SIMflyer and people without any experiance in aircraft.
Most of the reply´s are stupid, useless, without any background but with smileys...
Kindergarten

[amberleaf]

Hear, hear.

I am SLF. I know nothing, so I don't post. I come on here to read, to learn and to better understand what the people carrying me around the world have to go through to get me safely to where I want to go.

These idiots (even I am beginning to be able to spot them!) are really p**sing me off, so God only knows how frustrating it is for you guys who do this for a living in the REAL world.

Thank you for continuing to contribute in spite of all the drivel; I just want to let you all know that I for one, appreciate it.

Nuff said.

[Irish Steve]

PPL posers get to arrive at the destination with 5 hrs of extra gas, commercial operators in this kind of scenario (ie commuter T-prop with this sector distance and pax load) never do. I think it is time you stopped commenting on things you know nothing about.

I don't know anything about gliding which is why I don't post on gliding bulletin boards. Perhaps you should show the same courtesy to professional pilots ......

And you know nothing about the aircraft I was flying, or the route, or the operation, or me, so your ill informed, incorrect and offensive comments are so wrong and also regrettably typical of the arrogance and misplaced elitism that fortunately is at last dying out among supposed professional pilots.

I arrived at my FINAL destination with 2 Hrs fuel, (the alternate then was just under 1 Hr away) and the divert decision was taken less than 1 Hour into what was originally a planned 3 Hour sector that was rapidly becoming a 4 hour flight due to unforecast 50 Kt Headwinds.

The tanks were full because it was an international flight with a stop over, on duty free fuel which was considerably cheaper than fuel en route and at the destination, so carrying extra wasn't a "PPL" choice, it was a beancounter choice, With full tanks and single crewed, it was a 12 Hour endurance aircraft, which would have allowed a non stop Dublin to Rome flight.

It was a very different story if full of both passengers and bags, it could not take full fuel for both C of G and weight reasons, and had a range of about 400 Miles with appropriate IFR reserves, so I did have to deal with making sure that all the right decisions were made in respect of where to go, and when, and with the right alternatives, especially in the early days when I was still getting used to the capabilities of the aircraft.

Significant areas of peripheral Europe are not like most of the States, where there are good airfields every 20 miles,

IFR alternates may be significant distances away, and over significant water distances, so 30 minutes alternate fuel was often not enough. I have flown long distances in both Europe and the States, so I do know what I'm on about here too.

Strangely enough, I thought personal attacks were not permitted.

I am neither a PPL or a Sim FLYER, as stated in my profile, at one time I was building Professional training sims. There is a VERY big difference. I have flown sims, lots of them, of all sizes and capabilites, and it was a very educational process.

I am very glad I didn't have to share the flight deck with some of the attitudes and prejudices I've seen here, instead, I was fortunate to work with a very much more understanding and enlightened group of highly professional people that recognised the skills and capabilities of the team they worked with, and encouraged them to develop.

Two professional pilots and 4 passengers lost their lives as a result of the Cork crash. The report will make it clear what happened.

As someone here commented a while ago, for those that have the background knowledge to read it, the clues are all here. Not all of them, some of them will come out of the pieces of the jigsaw that are not yet in the public domain, but to paraphrase the AAIB representative "They will serve to confirm what we are reasonably clear happened to the flight in it's final moments".

The commercial operators in general, and the low cost commuter operators that are flying on behalf of ticketing agencies will have to learn from this crash in order to ensure that another crash of this nature does not happen for a VERY long time. If the industry does not learn from it, it will be forced upon them by the regulators.

I would be the first to accept that some of the RUMOURS I have suggested would be outrageous if completely true. I also have noticed that most of the responses I have had have not been to disprove some of those rumours, but to attack me, or my experience, or similar. I have been close to or involved with aviation in one way or another for close on 45 years, and have seen more than my fair share of incidents, and had my own as well.

How do you tell 2 young children who are very excited that they can't go flying on their first flight with their dad (and yes, I was a very new PPL then, as were all Commercial pilots at some stage) on a perfect evening? Very hard, but what they didn't know until many years later was that another member of the flying club had torn off the wings of a Rallye that morning in marginal weather and killed himself and 3 other people. We still went, and I was the only one that didn't enjoy the flight very much. That day was a very early reminder that I have tried never to forget that there are limits and rules for very good reasons.

Some of the comments and rumours I have posted have not come from Professional Pilots, they have also come from despatchers, and engineers, and other professionals of all levels and qualifications, most of whom have been in the industry for a very long time, and have seen most of the mistakes that can and have been made. That is why they have made the suggestions they have. We talk among ourselves, regularly, and have been very much affected by a major incident in what is a relatively small aviation industry in this country. There are more aircraft on the ramp at Centennial, Denver, than on the entire Irish Register, so an incident like Cork has an effect that is felt country wide.

It is in all of our interests to ensure that the necesary lessons are learnt quickly, so that when we are asked by people outside of the industry, we can answer truthfully that it's not likely to ever happen again, as changes (whatever they may be) have been made as a result of the lessons learnt.

If achieving that result that means we have to discuss rumours as well as facts to ensure that the lessons are learnt as widely as possible, that seems to me like a very good idea. If that ruffles the feathers of some of the more precious pilots in the industry, that is the very reasonable price for ensuring that the maximum number of people possible keep using their skills and services as often as possible, which will continue to pay the bills and keep us all in employment.