Crash-Cork Airport
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N-1?
Some 14 yrs ago I was offered a skipperjob on a german metro. In order to get the German License I had to to a practical exam with the TRE Tomas Bert. Doors closed before engine start He just asked me to explain the procedrure: Engine 1 fails at or after V1. ('If you dont know, we are not going to start Zeeee engines at all). Good:
Option 1: Rotate, stay in ground effect and raise the gear (its not a JAR25 plane), accellerate V2, 400' recall items, climb above obstacle, accellerate blue line and climb to MSA.
Option 2: Rotate, stay in ground effect and raise the gear, accellerate blue line and climb out towards the MSA, 400' recall items etc.
Oh yeah, just in case the GEN1 stays connected to the LH main elec system, it will start to generate to many amps (fixed shaft prop) that it will blow the BTC (bus tie connector) resulting in los of LH main elec system. This is preventable by switching off the GEN1 in due time (well below 400').
If this happens anyway then Zeee Metro has 10 transferrable items in order to transfer the main systems to the RH main elec system. The most important switches: LG ctrl, LG lights, Flap position indicator.
Zee examiner was very pleased with the whole answer. 'Ok, very good. But now you close your eyes, and operate the switches withouth looking'.
(The swithes are behind the captains LH elbow. 2 rows of 5 switches.)
V1 cuts, N-1 goarounds are to say it mildly: a challenge.
There are no Metro simulators in europe. This means 'on the job training'.
The Metro's stall caracteristycs are very bad. We could only train the approach to the stall. in order not to stall completely and drop a wing.
The Metro's I used to fly had an AP usable during the cruise but useless during decent and approach. Same sh*t for the FD.
The Metro is certainly not an easy plane to fly and operate. Could be a handfull for most of us.
During the interview with the PFO I was told: 'This is a commercial company. If we cant earn money using your services, unfortunately we will have no other option then looking for a substitute.
Oh sorry guys, this is more a GA thing.
So, IF this crew made a mistake somewere down the line, IT IS ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE REAL PROBLEM.
Tailwind
Option 1: Rotate, stay in ground effect and raise the gear (its not a JAR25 plane), accellerate V2, 400' recall items, climb above obstacle, accellerate blue line and climb to MSA.
Option 2: Rotate, stay in ground effect and raise the gear, accellerate blue line and climb out towards the MSA, 400' recall items etc.
Oh yeah, just in case the GEN1 stays connected to the LH main elec system, it will start to generate to many amps (fixed shaft prop) that it will blow the BTC (bus tie connector) resulting in los of LH main elec system. This is preventable by switching off the GEN1 in due time (well below 400').
If this happens anyway then Zeee Metro has 10 transferrable items in order to transfer the main systems to the RH main elec system. The most important switches: LG ctrl, LG lights, Flap position indicator.
Zee examiner was very pleased with the whole answer. 'Ok, very good. But now you close your eyes, and operate the switches withouth looking'.
(The swithes are behind the captains LH elbow. 2 rows of 5 switches.)
V1 cuts, N-1 goarounds are to say it mildly: a challenge.
There are no Metro simulators in europe. This means 'on the job training'.
The Metro's stall caracteristycs are very bad. We could only train the approach to the stall. in order not to stall completely and drop a wing.
The Metro's I used to fly had an AP usable during the cruise but useless during decent and approach. Same sh*t for the FD.
The Metro is certainly not an easy plane to fly and operate. Could be a handfull for most of us.
During the interview with the PFO I was told: 'This is a commercial company. If we cant earn money using your services, unfortunately we will have no other option then looking for a substitute.
Oh sorry guys, this is more a GA thing.
So, IF this crew made a mistake somewere down the line, IT IS ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE REAL PROBLEM.
Tailwind
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I'm sure they were but do you hook up a newly promoted Captain with a rookie First Officer?
Qualified or not common sense says you don't do that. Rookies go with experienced Captains. Inexperienced Captains go with experienced FO's.
Qualified or not common sense says you don't do that. Rookies go with experienced Captains. Inexperienced Captains go with experienced FO's.
1947 BOAC Douglas C-47 crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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There are some questions that I think are worth asking:
1. exactly what position are the flaps in? the flap selector switch/handle?
2. The procedure of this airline must state which flap setting is used for an ILS approach...does anyone out there know what it is?
3. Most likely this plane was a METRO IV or 4. But I would like to know for sure what the type is.
4. Seems to me that a syncrhophaser was installed on the later ones...wondering about this ship?
Someone commented on the stall characteristics of this type. It is equipped with SAS (stability augmentation system), stick pusher. There is a clutch which can be disengaged by switch in the cockpit.
Also, there is almost certainly a way to know who was flying the plane as their is a switch which selects horizontal trim to either the copilot or pilot's side...Even if there isn't a black box, the trim selector swich should let us know who was flying.
some of you will of course state as fact that the captain was flying...due to wx...well, we really can't be sure yet.
The metroliner started life as the Merlin and then was stretched to the Metro, Metro 2, Metro 2a (these had jato bottles in the tail, you switched on the rocket if you lost an engine on takeoff...those jokers said it was just a smoke signal for the CFR boys). The wings on these types appear much shorter.
The Metro 3 lost the Jato bottle and added wingtip extensions (without spar).
The Metro 4 refined it a bit. Dowty rotol props seem to be the big change.
Continuous alcohol water injection is available for takeoff to increase engine power.
The nosewheel on this type is freely castering, except when the steering system is engaged, by touching a button on the port side of the throttles, then it is hydraulically operated, controlled by rudder pedals. For sharp corners there is a button on the captain's left side which increases the authority.
The metro can be operated single pilot in certain conditions,but most likely requires two pilots.
1. exactly what position are the flaps in? the flap selector switch/handle?
2. The procedure of this airline must state which flap setting is used for an ILS approach...does anyone out there know what it is?
3. Most likely this plane was a METRO IV or 4. But I would like to know for sure what the type is.
4. Seems to me that a syncrhophaser was installed on the later ones...wondering about this ship?
Someone commented on the stall characteristics of this type. It is equipped with SAS (stability augmentation system), stick pusher. There is a clutch which can be disengaged by switch in the cockpit.
Also, there is almost certainly a way to know who was flying the plane as their is a switch which selects horizontal trim to either the copilot or pilot's side...Even if there isn't a black box, the trim selector swich should let us know who was flying.
some of you will of course state as fact that the captain was flying...due to wx...well, we really can't be sure yet.
The metroliner started life as the Merlin and then was stretched to the Metro, Metro 2, Metro 2a (these had jato bottles in the tail, you switched on the rocket if you lost an engine on takeoff...those jokers said it was just a smoke signal for the CFR boys). The wings on these types appear much shorter.
The Metro 3 lost the Jato bottle and added wingtip extensions (without spar).
The Metro 4 refined it a bit. Dowty rotol props seem to be the big change.
Continuous alcohol water injection is available for takeoff to increase engine power.
The nosewheel on this type is freely castering, except when the steering system is engaged, by touching a button on the port side of the throttles, then it is hydraulically operated, controlled by rudder pedals. For sharp corners there is a button on the captain's left side which increases the authority.
The metro can be operated single pilot in certain conditions,but most likely requires two pilots.
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If all systems were ok and if the right wing tip contacted the runway, why did the aircraft veer to the right of the runway? If the aircraft was off the centre line and necessitated hard right, should it not be on the other side of the runway? Surely the inversion means the aircraft wouldn't have had time to correct its course?
(Systems engineer with limited flying experience!)
(Systems engineer with limited flying experience!)
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wide69
if the plane was off the runway to the left while making its approach and at the last second the pilots over reacted and went ''hard right'' to bring the plane to the middle of the runway, then the right wingtip might hit...and as I mentioned it, the tip, is just bolted on with no spar and it might have collapsed
of course all of this is just guessing...I would like to think that there will be a very honest report shortly
if the plane was off the runway to the left while making its approach and at the last second the pilots over reacted and went ''hard right'' to bring the plane to the middle of the runway, then the right wingtip might hit...and as I mentioned it, the tip, is just bolted on with no spar and it might have collapsed
of course all of this is just guessing...I would like to think that there will be a very honest report shortly
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Thanks for that 7. The point that struck me is the detail that the wingtip specifically hit the runway, meaning they were already over/on the runway, and the aircraft finished up to the right of the centre line @approx. 20 degrees from the photos. That would be a very severe correction if you were already approaching from the left of the centreline?
That would be a very severe correction if you were already approaching from the left of the centreline?
Am not familiar with the Metro, anybody in the know: is there a speed limit below which maximum aileron force is insufficient to counter the torque imbalance caused by a single engine going from idle to 100% at maximum acceleration ?
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Would that be Vmca?
I know this is a rumour network but to most of the professional pilots I work with who inhabit PPrune this particular thread is descending into complete farce.
Rumour is one thing, speculating on the reason for an incident in which colleagues and passengers perished when you have few verifiable facts is an appalling descent into tabloid bad practice. Those who genuinely DO fly for a living know that the moments spent sitting on your hands and waiting, when you don't have enough information to make a good decision, are the most valuable. Please sit on your hands!
I know this is a rumour network but to most of the professional pilots I work with who inhabit PPrune this particular thread is descending into complete farce.
Rumour is one thing, speculating on the reason for an incident in which colleagues and passengers perished when you have few verifiable facts is an appalling descent into tabloid bad practice. Those who genuinely DO fly for a living know that the moments spent sitting on your hands and waiting, when you don't have enough information to make a good decision, are the most valuable. Please sit on your hands!
Last edited by JazzyKex; 12th Feb 2011 at 15:30. Reason: to add
More than just an ATCO
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but do you hook up a newly promoted Captain with a rookie First Officer?
It's also ended in tragedy before.
Not suggesting that it happened here, but a simple method of preventing crewing mishaps came out of it I believe
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Based on the photos quite clearly showing a feathered port engine, I would dare to suggest that the right wingtip struck the ground/runway during the inversion sequence due to an engine out at go-around, and was not the cause but already an effect.
Am not familiar with the Metro, anybody in the know: is there a speed limit below which maximum aileron force is insufficient to counter the torque imbalance caused by a single engine going from idle to 100% at maximum acceleration ?
Am not familiar with the Metro, anybody in the know: is there a speed limit below which maximum aileron force is insufficient to counter the torque imbalance caused by a single engine going from idle to 100% at maximum acceleration ?
2) Torque imbalance? What is that. I guess you are refering to Vmc, red line speed, blah de blah. Well again, approach speed is well above red-line speed so if the engine failed on approach, not an issue,. If it failed in the flare...see 1)
3) maybe it is feathered before the accident, maybe it feathered after. Again see 1) & 2) above. If it failed at DH of 200' and they were not visual, then they'd execute a missed from 200' and would not have clipped the wingtip on the runway.... they'd probably have come down short of the runway (Vmc happens quickly, but again see 2) ). If it failed lower than DH then they were visual and would have landed and not been on a high power setting anyway...
I have absolutely no real desire to contribute to this discussion except for one extraordinary memory that I have of ex-Metro pilots.
About 20 years ago, I was training an ex-RAF pilot who had been flying the Metro, how to fly the BAe146. I could not believe how much aileron he was applying to achieve almost every manoeuvre in the simulator. He soon settled down but we had to go through the same exercise (to a lesser extent) when we got to the BAe146 aeroplane.
A couple of years later, I encountered another pilot with exactly the same problem. "You haven't just been flying Metros have you?" said I. "Yes indeed", said he, "how did you know?".
Then I had a third one!
Perhaps those of you out there who actually know what you are talking about could tell me if it really was necessary to use a lot of aileron on the Metro to make it do what you wanted it to do?
About 20 years ago, I was training an ex-RAF pilot who had been flying the Metro, how to fly the BAe146. I could not believe how much aileron he was applying to achieve almost every manoeuvre in the simulator. He soon settled down but we had to go through the same exercise (to a lesser extent) when we got to the BAe146 aeroplane.
A couple of years later, I encountered another pilot with exactly the same problem. "You haven't just been flying Metros have you?" said I. "Yes indeed", said he, "how did you know?".
Then I had a third one!
Perhaps those of you out there who actually know what you are talking about could tell me if it really was necessary to use a lot of aileron on the Metro to make it do what you wanted it to do?
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Jazzkey
I utterly agree with you and said as much in an earlier post which has been wiped. It seems that many posts which do not agree to a strict protocol suffer the same fate; yet others wild beyond exaggeration are allowed to remain.
I do not know how to quote on this forum and it does seem to be not an easy thing to do.
I utterly agree with you and said as much in an earlier post which has been wiped. It seems that many posts which do not agree to a strict protocol suffer the same fate; yet others wild beyond exaggeration are allowed to remain.
I do not know how to quote on this forum and it does seem to be not an easy thing to do.
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Based on the photos quite clearly showing a feathered port engine, I would dare to suggest that the right wingtip struck the ground/runway during the inversion sequence due to an engine out at go-around, and was not the cause but already an effect.
On the TPE331 Engine the Prop will feather if the engine shuts down. During normal shut down the Pilot selects HP fuel off and then selects power leaver towards reverse, holds it so the pitch locks in fine. The prop seen in feather does not give 100% indication that it was in feather when the aircraft was still flying.
On the TPE331 Engine the Prop will feather if the engine shuts down. During normal shut down the Pilot selects HP fuel off and then selects power leaver towards reverse, holds it so the pitch locks in fine. The prop seen in feather does not give 100% indication that it was in feather when the aircraft was still flying.
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Based on the photos quite clearly showing a feathered port engine
Sorry cant use the quote system... lets not get ahead of ourselves here we don't know if it was feathered it just looks that way maybe it is doesn't mean the crew feathered it..(also id say if there was an engine failure at some point its possible we would have herd about it by now unless it happened at the very last minute)
I found somewhere the metro can be operated single crew but in cargo con-fig only...pax has to be 2 crew operation is this due i wonder to the fact theres no cabin crew..?
seriously doubt the new captain would have been paired with a new FO
Sorry cant use the quote system... lets not get ahead of ourselves here we don't know if it was feathered it just looks that way maybe it is doesn't mean the crew feathered it..(also id say if there was an engine failure at some point its possible we would have herd about it by now unless it happened at the very last minute)
I found somewhere the metro can be operated single crew but in cargo con-fig only...pax has to be 2 crew operation is this due i wonder to the fact theres no cabin crew..?
seriously doubt the new captain would have been paired with a new FO
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Hi Locked Door,
Re: DH/A I have pulled the following diagram from ICAO annexe 6 JAR OPS 1 subpart E. I am certainly not trying to evaluate what happened in Cork, but was just taking the opportunity to highlight a common misconception amongst pilots that, 'AT' DH/A you look up and see what you can see and then say LAND or GO-AROUND. The decision must be made BY DH. See below;
http://www.skybrary.aero/images/101010-1.jpg
Re: DH/A I have pulled the following diagram from ICAO annexe 6 JAR OPS 1 subpart E. I am certainly not trying to evaluate what happened in Cork, but was just taking the opportunity to highlight a common misconception amongst pilots that, 'AT' DH/A you look up and see what you can see and then say LAND or GO-AROUND. The decision must be made BY DH. See below;
http://www.skybrary.aero/images/101010-1.jpg
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'seriously doubt the new captain would have been paired with a new FO' - you might doubt it but you'd better believe it - it happens.
Guys, what is there about this statement:
'Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground'
that is encouraging many of you to run with this 'engine failure' theory?
Guys, what is there about this statement:
'Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground'
that is encouraging many of you to run with this 'engine failure' theory?
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regarding the claims that the aircraft may have rolled inverted because of a port engine failure. If this did happen, it would have rolled to the left, towards the dead engine. This I expect would have taken it to the left of the runway towards the terminal buildings.
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For the 3rd and final time, I promise:
'Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground'
What is there about this statement that is difficult to understand.
'Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground'
What is there about this statement that is difficult to understand.
JW411
Re. Aileron control on Metro liners.
IIRC, About 20 years ago 2 were certified on the UK register for Ellen Vallan Airlines at Bournemouth. (EVA didn't last long)
They were fitted with longer ailerons due to the CAAs concern over roll control.
I've no idea if this is relevant to the accident though.
Re. Aileron control on Metro liners.
IIRC, About 20 years ago 2 were certified on the UK register for Ellen Vallan Airlines at Bournemouth. (EVA didn't last long)
They were fitted with longer ailerons due to the CAAs concern over roll control.
I've no idea if this is relevant to the accident though.