SWA Captain delays flight for bereaved passenger!
What annoys me is when the flight departs on time but leaves a load of baggage behind because the ground staff want to get their bonus for an on time departure or the gate is needed for an arriving aircraft. For many passengers arriving at destination without their cases will ruin their holiday, cruise, business trip etc.
This sort of bending to the nationally reportable statistics rather than the requirements of the paying passengers has also afflicted the railway in Britain, where some ludicrous management decisions are made to enable the right sort of simplistic statistics to be achieved.
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Late connects (12-15?)heading to Europe. Miss the flight and they'll be 24 hrs delayed. Little do we know it's the future bride, groom, parents, and a couple of friends heading to the overseas wedding.
Management has already decided that they'll miss their connections. The employees decide they will MAKE the connection. So the departure gets delayed. People make the flight.
Think they're all happy? No. Two have been reassigned seats in business instead of F/C. Not happy. The drama starts.
Luckily the others understood the circumstances. How would we withheld other upgrades because we're holding the seats for people that officially will never make the flight???. Thankfully the others convinced the father of the bride to calm down before he got himself removed from the flight.
So would the father write a thank you note or would he write a complaint?
"No good deed goes unpunished."
Management has already decided that they'll miss their connections. The employees decide they will MAKE the connection. So the departure gets delayed. People make the flight.
Think they're all happy? No. Two have been reassigned seats in business instead of F/C. Not happy. The drama starts.
Luckily the others understood the circumstances. How would we withheld other upgrades because we're holding the seats for people that officially will never make the flight???. Thankfully the others convinced the father of the bride to calm down before he got himself removed from the flight.
So would the father write a thank you note or would he write a complaint?
"No good deed goes unpunished."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
What annoys me is when the flight departs on time but leaves a load of baggage behind because the ground staff want to get their bonus for an on time departure or the gate is needed for an arriving aircraft. For many passengers arriving at destination without their cases will ruin their holiday, cruise, business trip etc.
Who put such a bonus scheme together ? Why are the ground staff entitled to any bonus points if all their duties (which includes loading all baggage) are not completed ?
This sort of bending to the nationally reportable statistics rather than the requirements of the paying passengers has also afflicted the railway in Britain, where some ludicrous management decisions are made to enable the right sort of simplistic statistics to be achieved.
Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
What annoys me is when the flight departs on time but leaves a load of baggage behind because the ground staff want to get their bonus for an on time departure or the gate is needed for an arriving aircraft. For many passengers arriving at destination without their cases will ruin their holiday, cruise, business trip etc.
Who put such a bonus scheme together ? Why are the ground staff entitled to any bonus points if all their duties (which includes loading all baggage) are not completed ?
This sort of bending to the nationally reportable statistics rather than the requirements of the paying passengers has also afflicted the railway in Britain, where some ludicrous management decisions are made to enable the right sort of simplistic statistics to be achieved.
I remember an incident as an SLF when my luggage was offloaded at a stopover enroute to my final destination.. I watched it sitting on the tarmac while we taxied away for departure. 
Didn't have the material I needed for a business presentation when I arrived. I've been a carry-on passenger ever since for anything critical.
Didn't have the material I needed for a business presentation when I arrived. I've been a carry-on passenger ever since for anything critical.
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In general the be all and end all in the aviation industry is that aircraft needs to be off stand on time. Airlines in general like to protect their on-time schedule performance as it is now published.
When aircraft don't go on time then everyone needs to know the reason especially if you work for a 3rd party agent handling the flight.
As modernised aircraft start to be entered into service with ACARS installed they monitor and send to airline operations the times of doors closed, pushback and airborne times. This halts the descretion of calling a flight of time confirmed with Captain allthough really it's 5 minutes late.
3rd Party agents can also be fined for taking a number of handling delays which including late acceptance of passengers. (unless at captain special request).
The fine line is who is telling the truth and who isn't? With -20 & -30 check-ins along with internet check-in passengers. Passengers are cutting it fine and leaving minimum time to turn up at the airport.
I would prefer that discretion could be used however the pressures for on-time performance and having to explain your actions along with a possible record on personel files will deter it. Not everyone is honest.
The good old days where nobody would question a delay are well over.
When aircraft don't go on time then everyone needs to know the reason especially if you work for a 3rd party agent handling the flight.
As modernised aircraft start to be entered into service with ACARS installed they monitor and send to airline operations the times of doors closed, pushback and airborne times. This halts the descretion of calling a flight of time confirmed with Captain allthough really it's 5 minutes late.
3rd Party agents can also be fined for taking a number of handling delays which including late acceptance of passengers. (unless at captain special request).
The fine line is who is telling the truth and who isn't? With -20 & -30 check-ins along with internet check-in passengers. Passengers are cutting it fine and leaving minimum time to turn up at the airport.
I would prefer that discretion could be used however the pressures for on-time performance and having to explain your actions along with a possible record on personel files will deter it. Not everyone is honest.
The good old days where nobody would question a delay are well over.
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Yes, too many nit-picking types.
If a flight is +/- 30 minutes, it's "on time" as far as MOST reasonable people are concerned. Buf if it's scheduled for a 9:14 arrival and it's 9:16 when it gets there, that's considered not on time.
Of course, if a flight doesn't arrive at precisely the right time, then we have the issue with too many planes trying to land on the same runway at the same time...
If a flight is +/- 30 minutes, it's "on time" as far as MOST reasonable people are concerned. Buf if it's scheduled for a 9:14 arrival and it's 9:16 when it gets there, that's considered not on time.
Of course, if a flight doesn't arrive at precisely the right time, then we have the issue with too many planes trying to land on the same runway at the same time...
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Punctuality records in the UK are based on up to 15 minutes off stand.
However depending on a length of flight it can depend on how much time a flight can make up. It's also much harder if it's a low cost carrier where all the times are kept to the minimum to start with. This can cause a knock on effect for the rest of the days flights.
Some airlines that operate shuttle services into a hub for onward connections. It is not just the passengers you need to think of but the crew may not all be operating the same flight for the onward connection.
So not only do you have to worry about the passengers on your flight that may miss connections. But if all crew are operating on seperate flights and different aircraft then in theory you may in total cause delays to 4 or 5 other flights depending on number of crew operating.
However depending on a length of flight it can depend on how much time a flight can make up. It's also much harder if it's a low cost carrier where all the times are kept to the minimum to start with. This can cause a knock on effect for the rest of the days flights.
Some airlines that operate shuttle services into a hub for onward connections. It is not just the passengers you need to think of but the crew may not all be operating the same flight for the onward connection.
So not only do you have to worry about the passengers on your flight that may miss connections. But if all crew are operating on seperate flights and different aircraft then in theory you may in total cause delays to 4 or 5 other flights depending on number of crew operating.
Then there is the other side of the fence .......
Ready to depart for 7 hour night sector from a S.E. Asia airport.
Company Agent asks if I will declare a 10 min.Crew Delay, 'cos the wife of some Far Eastern Potentate, who is commercially important to the airline, is still shopping in Duty Free.
No, crew is ready, but if you wish to declare a 10 min Traffic delay, be my guest, we have some spare Duty Time to play with.
Company Agent wets himself but declares 10 min Traffic Delay "due late pax"
10 mins later scene replayed, same solution.
10 mins later I again refuse a further "Crew Delay" and ask Agent to leave the flight deck and close the forward door, we have the loadsheet, 300 other pax have connections to make, we're off.
Can't leave Mrs. Potentate behind, says Agent, Oh yes I can says I.
Agent then plays his Trump card, can't leave because Mrs. Potentates' bags are on board, and that is a security risk , so we will have to look for them, which will take time.
Oh yes we can, I say, because I don't believe Mrs. Potentate is a terrorist (the TSA hadn't been invented )
You don't mean you will leave Mrs. Potentate ( I think he called her a Queen, in fact ) behind but take her bags away, do you ? Yes, and please close the door as we now have an ATC clearance to meet.
Agent wets himself again, but just then 2 large Mercedes limousines appear, heading for the aircraft, so in the end Mrs."Queen" Potentate got on board, I had informed the waiting pax of the reason for their inconvenience, so she was greeted by ironic clapping. (tho' she probably thought it was adoration)
Those sort of passengers p**sed me off.
Ready to depart for 7 hour night sector from a S.E. Asia airport.
Company Agent asks if I will declare a 10 min.Crew Delay, 'cos the wife of some Far Eastern Potentate, who is commercially important to the airline, is still shopping in Duty Free.
No, crew is ready, but if you wish to declare a 10 min Traffic delay, be my guest, we have some spare Duty Time to play with.
Company Agent wets himself but declares 10 min Traffic Delay "due late pax"
10 mins later scene replayed, same solution.
10 mins later I again refuse a further "Crew Delay" and ask Agent to leave the flight deck and close the forward door, we have the loadsheet, 300 other pax have connections to make, we're off.
Can't leave Mrs. Potentate behind, says Agent, Oh yes I can says I.
Agent then plays his Trump card, can't leave because Mrs. Potentates' bags are on board, and that is a security risk , so we will have to look for them, which will take time.
Oh yes we can, I say, because I don't believe Mrs. Potentate is a terrorist (the TSA hadn't been invented )
You don't mean you will leave Mrs. Potentate ( I think he called her a Queen, in fact ) behind but take her bags away, do you ? Yes, and please close the door as we now have an ATC clearance to meet.
Agent wets himself again, but just then 2 large Mercedes limousines appear, heading for the aircraft, so in the end Mrs."Queen" Potentate got on board, I had informed the waiting pax of the reason for their inconvenience, so she was greeted by ironic clapping. (tho' she probably thought it was adoration)
Those sort of passengers p**sed me off.
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I am glad you are not in the UK. As you would not have been allowed to push back with that passengers bags still on board.
In UK If a passenger has turned up at check-in with bags and somehow not turned up at the gate then regardless who they are their luggage that's still in the hold should be removed before the planes depart.
Didn't the same thing happen in the Locerbie bombing?
Bags can only travel unacompanied if it has had more instensed screening by the security agents along with their signature. 1 Copy for captain & the other copy for Dispatcher.
However this is another topic alltogether.
In UK If a passenger has turned up at check-in with bags and somehow not turned up at the gate then regardless who they are their luggage that's still in the hold should be removed before the planes depart.
Didn't the same thing happen in the Locerbie bombing?
Bags can only travel unacompanied if it has had more instensed screening by the security agents along with their signature. 1 Copy for captain & the other copy for Dispatcher.
However this is another topic alltogether.
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Nice thread, good to see that Humanity hasn't completely vanished. However, there is always someone who will bring the rules into a post. Kinda lost the "thread" of the Thread.
On flight I was on some years ago as a passenger, we had been sitting on the ground for some time, all seats appeared full, but the door was open, so I happened to ask the stewardess what the delay was.
She said 'There's a vegetarian on board, and their meal hasn't arrived yet'.
You can guess who the veggie was!
She said 'There's a vegetarian on board, and their meal hasn't arrived yet'.
You can guess who the veggie was!
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Just SLF, but as I'm in education I hear excuses for being late and emergencies all the time. What I observe is that much of being late is due to bad planning or procrastination, not an actual unexpected situation.
Much of this thread has made me feel warm with the humanity of so many people, as evidenced by the original topic of this thread as well as stories of getting a few precious hours with a dying parent. Yet what of the idiot who knows that a parent is very ill and still goes off on a ski week instead of being cautious and staying near home just in case something happens? I do NOT suggest this is the case for any who have posted here, but there are people who take unreasonable risks expecting that others will help if needed, instead of avoiding the risk in the first place.
If I miss a connection and spend 24 hours in a strange city due to a true emergency as described in this thread many times, then I see it as a happy adventure. If we depart 1 minute late because of waiting for some idiot, who should reasonably (OK what is reasonable!!!) have not left home in the first place, needs to rush back home, then I am grumpy.
Help when truly needed is beautiful, but facilitating idiotic decisions only promotes more of those decisions.
Much of this thread has made me feel warm with the humanity of so many people, as evidenced by the original topic of this thread as well as stories of getting a few precious hours with a dying parent. Yet what of the idiot who knows that a parent is very ill and still goes off on a ski week instead of being cautious and staying near home just in case something happens? I do NOT suggest this is the case for any who have posted here, but there are people who take unreasonable risks expecting that others will help if needed, instead of avoiding the risk in the first place.
If I miss a connection and spend 24 hours in a strange city due to a true emergency as described in this thread many times, then I see it as a happy adventure. If we depart 1 minute late because of waiting for some idiot, who should reasonably (OK what is reasonable!!!) have not left home in the first place, needs to rush back home, then I am grumpy.
Help when truly needed is beautiful, but facilitating idiotic decisions only promotes more of those decisions.
However depending on a length of flight it can depend on how much time a flight can make up. It's also much harder if it's a low cost carrier where all the times are kept to the minimum to start with. This can cause a knock on effect for the rest of the days flights.
Drain Bamaged
"I'm fed up, close the door and go, I'll deal with him"
ExSp33db1rd,
Your story remind me one of my late father, "Chef d'escale" for Air Afrique and UTA in the late 70's in Bangui, Central Africa Republic.
One day, he was arrested and rounded up to the "conseil des ministres" were they threatened him of jail for letting a DC-10 leave on time.
Not waiting for a notorious (and always late) local minister who had a trip to do in France.
My father was back on the job the following morning and the story goes that this particular minister made all his subsequent flights on time
Just to say that in those particular cases, when you close the door you just leave the scene behind.
The agent will be left there to deal heads on with whatever situation it provoked
Your story remind me one of my late father, "Chef d'escale" for Air Afrique and UTA in the late 70's in Bangui, Central Africa Republic.
One day, he was arrested and rounded up to the "conseil des ministres" were they threatened him of jail for letting a DC-10 leave on time.
Not waiting for a notorious (and always late) local minister who had a trip to do in France.
My father was back on the job the following morning and the story goes that this particular minister made all his subsequent flights on time
Just to say that in those particular cases, when you close the door you just leave the scene behind.
The agent will be left there to deal heads on with whatever situation it provoked
Last edited by ehwatezedoing; 18th Jan 2011 at 16:04.
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dont know who keeps on saying that this 'great publicity' will earn them millions they obviously haven't seen the pax figures for ryanair this year....over 70 million of these idiots keep on coming back for the same punishment and not a decent article written on them for decades.
hmmm seems like the phrase all publicity is good publicity is true....maybe the managers of other airlines should follow his lead.....no scrap that please don't!
hmmm seems like the phrase all publicity is good publicity is true....maybe the managers of other airlines should follow his lead.....no scrap that please don't!
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The thing is, with the exception of a few people who've read/contributed on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't more than a dozen people worldwide who could tell you which airline this happend on.
First, it was not widely publicized. Second, the one news station that did cover it didn't say the airline name AT ALL. Third, the airline has not taken out any ads saying "We make sure you get to see your grandkid die" (sorry, that was very sick humor, Lord, please forgive me for that, and help the pygmies down there in New Guinea, Amen) And fourth, no airline is going to publish it because then they'd have to create an SOP as to what constitutes and emergency that should be waited upon and what does not, and that would start up the lawsuit machine.
So, this, and other "human" actions, taken by airlines that show themesleve to be be caring, will not result in increased revenue for a particular airline. However, it might increase revenue overall for all airlines.
First, it was not widely publicized. Second, the one news station that did cover it didn't say the airline name AT ALL. Third, the airline has not taken out any ads saying "We make sure you get to see your grandkid die" (sorry, that was very sick humor, Lord, please forgive me for that, and help the pygmies down there in New Guinea, Amen) And fourth, no airline is going to publish it because then they'd have to create an SOP as to what constitutes and emergency that should be waited upon and what does not, and that would start up the lawsuit machine.
So, this, and other "human" actions, taken by airlines that show themesleve to be be caring, will not result in increased revenue for a particular airline. However, it might increase revenue overall for all airlines.
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Yet what of the idiot who knows that a parent is very ill and still goes off on a ski week instead of being cautious and staying near home just in case something happens? I do NOT suggest this is the case for any who have posted here, but there are people who take unreasonable risks expecting that others will help if needed, instead of avoiding the risk in the first place.
Yes, compassion is good, and this was a good decision that anybody would back. But this doesn't mean pilots should just wait for any late passenger just because they feel like it.
One thing which really impressed me about this was that Southwest hierachy said "We encourage our staff to use their intiative".
That attitude must pay real dividends with the staff.
That attitude must pay real dividends with the staff.
I
Agreed - now, but this was pre-9/11 and even pre-Lockerbie, and the airline concerned still gave the matter of offloading baggage "Captains' Discretion" and clearly the subject passenger wasn't a potential hijacker (on-board bombers weren't considered so much of a major threat then. )
Remember when it was nice to have " Captains' Discretion", chaps, before the World went truly Mad ?
Agreed, but I was just showing the other side of the picture - for every pax. deserving of sympathy and consideration, there are two ( or more ) who don't !! ( I could write a book )
I used to actually volunteer for the Mid - night freight flights -all I had to do was fly the aeroplane and didn't have to be nice to anyone - 'cept possibly my Flight Engineer, even the Co-pilot I could have managed without, but not the F/E, an essential part of every aeroplane. Ahhhhh !!!!
am glad you are not in the UK. As you would not have been allowed to push back with that passengers bags still on board.
Remember when it was nice to have " Captains' Discretion", chaps, before the World went truly Mad ?
However this is another topic alltogether.
I used to actually volunteer for the Mid - night freight flights -all I had to do was fly the aeroplane and didn't have to be nice to anyone - 'cept possibly my Flight Engineer, even the Co-pilot I could have managed without, but not the F/E, an essential part of every aeroplane. Ahhhhh !!!!