Age 70 for international pilots?
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It's OK to fly past 60, but not OK to put two over 60's in the same cockpit.
Why?
Why?
Last edited by FoxHunter; 14th Aug 2010 at 13:34.
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It is OK in the USA. I've done it a number of times. It is not approved for international flights because of the ICAO standard. ICAO actually has stated that iit is not required but maintains it because some authorities do insist on the requirement. The present law in the USA says that if ICAO drops the one pilot under 60 rule for international flights there is no longer any restriction for US crews on international flights.
Just curious.
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This is how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong........
Each country sets it's own rules for pilot licencing and also for foreign pilots flying through it's airspace.
This varies considerably. Canada has absolutely NO age restrictions. Any licenced pilot can fly into or through Canadian airspace at any age.
Other countries have restrictions which prevent pilots after certain ages from being licenced in that country or flying through their airspace.
What ICAO has done is set up a rule that all countries must abide by in order to maintain their ICAO status. This rule allows exceptions to any country's own rules or regulations.
You can fly with anywhere with older pilots and disregard the ICAO rule providing you don't fly though airspace where age limits are applied. In that case you must meet the ICAO age 65 over/under rule.
Correct?
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
Each country sets it's own rules for pilot licencing and also for foreign pilots flying through it's airspace.
This varies considerably. Canada has absolutely NO age restrictions. Any licenced pilot can fly into or through Canadian airspace at any age.
Other countries have restrictions which prevent pilots after certain ages from being licenced in that country or flying through their airspace.
What ICAO has done is set up a rule that all countries must abide by in order to maintain their ICAO status. This rule allows exceptions to any country's own rules or regulations.
You can fly with anywhere with older pilots and disregard the ICAO rule providing you don't fly though airspace where age limits are applied. In that case you must meet the ICAO age 65 over/under rule.
Correct?
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
Age limit for flight crew
Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft, subject to conditions. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
1) Pilot-in-Command aged 60-64 years of age
In accordance with Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the amendment means that if a pilot-in-command (PIC) is 60 years of age or over but less than 65 years of age and is engaged in operations with more than one pilot, he/she cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating in airports or the airspace of any ICAO Contracting State as long as at least one other pilot is under 60 years of age. For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years. A State may impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in § 2.1.10.1 for the licenses it issues but it cannot prevent, by reason of age, an aircraft from another State operated by a PIC holding a licence issued or validated by that State, who is below the ICAO upper age limit, from operating in the airspace above its territory.
2) Pilot-in-Command 65 years of age and over
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated. Those seeking information concerning States that may authorize pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 65 years are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities
3) Augmented crews
In commercial long-range air transport, the designated flight crew may be augmented, and can number three, four or even more pilots. In the case of flight crew comprising more than two pilots, the intent of § 2.1.10.1 is to ensure that, when the pilot-in-command is over 60 but less than 65 years of age, the operating flight crew includes at least one other pilot, who is licensed, appropriately rated for all phases of flight, current, and younger than 60 years of age. It is suggested that during high workload phases of flight (such as flight below 10,000 feet above ground level) at least one pilot seated at the controls should be under 60 years of age.
4) Medical Assessment
When over 60, a six-monthly medical assessment is necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical assessment for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations).
Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft, subject to conditions. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
1) Pilot-in-Command aged 60-64 years of age
In accordance with Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the amendment means that if a pilot-in-command (PIC) is 60 years of age or over but less than 65 years of age and is engaged in operations with more than one pilot, he/she cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating in airports or the airspace of any ICAO Contracting State as long as at least one other pilot is under 60 years of age. For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years. A State may impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in § 2.1.10.1 for the licenses it issues but it cannot prevent, by reason of age, an aircraft from another State operated by a PIC holding a licence issued or validated by that State, who is below the ICAO upper age limit, from operating in the airspace above its territory.
2) Pilot-in-Command 65 years of age and over
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated. Those seeking information concerning States that may authorize pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 65 years are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities
3) Augmented crews
In commercial long-range air transport, the designated flight crew may be augmented, and can number three, four or even more pilots. In the case of flight crew comprising more than two pilots, the intent of § 2.1.10.1 is to ensure that, when the pilot-in-command is over 60 but less than 65 years of age, the operating flight crew includes at least one other pilot, who is licensed, appropriately rated for all phases of flight, current, and younger than 60 years of age. It is suggested that during high workload phases of flight (such as flight below 10,000 feet above ground level) at least one pilot seated at the controls should be under 60 years of age.
4) Medical Assessment
When over 60, a six-monthly medical assessment is necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical assessment for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations).
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Originally Posted by protectthe hornet
if you do...
allow 80 year old flight attendants!
;-)
allow 80 year old flight attendants!
;-)
At the hotel in Venice recently the United (or was it Delta) Dragons arrived in the crewroom midday. I thought my old school matron had walked through the door
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Originally Posted by lambourne
Whenever, they make any type of complaint, it is my duty to remind them they should be in a retirement home instead of an airplane.
Besides - as a young fart in my early 40s I intend to keep on flying 'til I drop. I couldn't care less about disgruntled F/Os like Larry the Lambourne
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white knight
and now you know why I prefer going to dumb domestic overnights...(in there day) akron, elmira, rochester (ny)...the youngest junior FA's got those overnights...the senior ones got paris. (sadly, regionals are doing more of those domestic overnights...but Boston,Chicago, Philly, and Washington are still sort of junior)
and now you know why I prefer going to dumb domestic overnights...(in there day) akron, elmira, rochester (ny)...the youngest junior FA's got those overnights...the senior ones got paris. (sadly, regionals are doing more of those domestic overnights...but Boston,Chicago, Philly, and Washington are still sort of junior)
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I have just retired after 44 years of flying 43 of which were with airlines, i started in 1966, i`m now 65, --the last 5 years flying A320`s my opinion is that 65 is quite old enough, there is no way a 65 year old is going to climb into a raft, (mind you at my final drill 1 year ago hardly anybody except the youngest and fittest F/O`s could do it either). At 65 most people are just physically not up to all the different drills etc, however most can easily pass the sim. of course there will be excecptions but they will be few.
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Thank you! Now can you give us a link to verify this, and who are "some authorities" in this concept?
Just curious.
Just curious.
http://www.age60rule.com/docs/AN%20M...4_10-28-03.pdf
Page 7, Par.25
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If you are over 60 and wonder why you never get coffee, tea, water or asked if you want us to coorcindate with the FA's your meal, you are now brought up to speed. You are operating as an indpedent system with nothing but your own self preservation being the number one factor. You have not been accidentally overlooked by the rest fo the crew. The rest of the crew is operating outside of your needs or wants. You still get to sprout your wise words, but when it comes to keeping you fed and watered, you are own your own.
Sorry it has come to this. Just how it has worked out. There were many big talking over 60 pilots procrlaimig retirement was going to take place at 62. Still see ALL those faces. So the lies started early and keep on coming. Maybe you can snag another A/P approach next week. These guys are giving up landings to the computer as if they are part of the crew. Definitley demonstrating some fear of the airplane lately.
Coming up on 2 years till the thieves are released. I certainly hope no one at my company takes the time to acknowledge these events. Let these guys sliver under the door like the low life they really are. Good Riddiance and don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!
Sorry it has come to this. Just how it has worked out. There were many big talking over 60 pilots procrlaimig retirement was going to take place at 62. Still see ALL those faces. So the lies started early and keep on coming. Maybe you can snag another A/P approach next week. These guys are giving up landings to the computer as if they are part of the crew. Definitley demonstrating some fear of the airplane lately.
Coming up on 2 years till the thieves are released. I certainly hope no one at my company takes the time to acknowledge these events. Let these guys sliver under the door like the low life they really are. Good Riddiance and don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!
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allow 80 year old flight attendants!
Looking at the United crew arriving in Sydney every morning, I'd be guessing that quite a few of the flight attendants on that trip are around (and either side of) the 70 mark. I've never seen so much blue rinse hair outside a bingo hall.
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Question:
Would you rather ride in the back with a 68 year old Captain and a 65 year old F/O or in the back with a crew whose combined age is 53?
Goldfish
Would you rather ride in the back with a 68 year old Captain and a 65 year old F/O or in the back with a crew whose combined age is 53?
Goldfish
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If you are over 60 and wonder why you never get coffee, tea, water or asked if you want us to coorcindate with the FA's your meal, you are now brought up to speed. You are operating as an indpedent system with nothing but your own self preservation being the number one factor. You have not been accidentally overlooked by the rest fo the crew. The rest of the crew is operating outside of your needs or wants. You still get to sprout your wise words, but when it comes to keeping you fed and watered, you are own your own.
Sorry it has come to this. Just how it has worked out. There were many big talking over 60 pilots procrlaimig retirement was going to take place at 62. Still see ALL those faces. So the lies started early and keep on coming. Maybe you can snag another A/P approach next week. These guys are giving up landings to the computer as if they are part of the crew. Definitley demonstrating some fear of the airplane lately.
Coming up on 2 years till the thieves are released. I certainly hope no one at my company takes the time to acknowledge these events. Let these guys sliver under the door like the low life they really are. Good Riddiance and don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!
Sorry it has come to this. Just how it has worked out. There were many big talking over 60 pilots procrlaimig retirement was going to take place at 62. Still see ALL those faces. So the lies started early and keep on coming. Maybe you can snag another A/P approach next week. These guys are giving up landings to the computer as if they are part of the crew. Definitley demonstrating some fear of the airplane lately.
Coming up on 2 years till the thieves are released. I certainly hope no one at my company takes the time to acknowledge these events. Let these guys sliver under the door like the low life they really are. Good Riddiance and don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!
Two years, and you think age 65 is over. My guess is 90% are staying past age 60. Age 62, you were told? Heck, my guess is they just wanted to shut you up. Oh! Landings? I have 22 in the last 90 days, and don't recall any being autoland. Meals, coffee, soda have never been a problem. We don't have FAs so we either get, cook our own or for all.
Funny guy! Please tell us ..................
I'm really enjoying this thread! Not sure if Lambourne is serious, or just winding us up. but if his observations are true it's a worrying perspective on the standards of his current airline.
Maybe the decline in the ability of his older peers is that they are all 'good ole boys' who have spent years and years of their career being told what to do by the flight dispatcher and have been carried along by an operational system (company ops and ATC) which slowly erodes the decision making and perceptive capability. What is important is knowing or recognising the point where one's operating standards are falling short and it seems that Lambourne is flying with people who no longer acknowledge that.
I would like to know how Lambourne decides to act in the way he does. Does he look at company records, GD's, or peek at the guys passport to see if he's over 60 to select a behavioural mode, or is it simply on appearance or capability? I have flown with aged looking 45 year olds who have all of the degenerate attributes so detested by Lambourne. Conversely, I operate regularly with some over-60's who look 45 and would probably put you in the shade in every way. Some of them are ex US majors too, so no bias.
Please let me know what a CD arrival into LHR is. I seem to be having a senior moment........
Maybe the decline in the ability of his older peers is that they are all 'good ole boys' who have spent years and years of their career being told what to do by the flight dispatcher and have been carried along by an operational system (company ops and ATC) which slowly erodes the decision making and perceptive capability. What is important is knowing or recognising the point where one's operating standards are falling short and it seems that Lambourne is flying with people who no longer acknowledge that.
I would like to know how Lambourne decides to act in the way he does. Does he look at company records, GD's, or peek at the guys passport to see if he's over 60 to select a behavioural mode, or is it simply on appearance or capability? I have flown with aged looking 45 year olds who have all of the degenerate attributes so detested by Lambourne. Conversely, I operate regularly with some over-60's who look 45 and would probably put you in the shade in every way. Some of them are ex US majors too, so no bias.
Please let me know what a CD arrival into LHR is. I seem to be having a senior moment........
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I'm surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that Lambourne voluntarily chose to be an f/o rather than take a command on a narrow body jet? Lack of confidence perhaps? Lack of command potential? Hence the bitterness and vitriol?!
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I'm surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that Lambourne voluntarily chose to be an f/o rather than take a command on a narrow body jet? Lack of confidence perhaps? Lack of command potential? Hence the bitterness and vitriol?!
You are operating as an indpedent system with nothing but your own self preservation being the number one factor. You have not been accidentally overlooked by the rest fo the crew.
), as I don't take much notice of the rest of the crew, anyway.As long as they do as I say, when I say it, I could care less.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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lambourne: So, after all this ranting, are you going to hold fast to your principles and retire at 60 while all your compatriots are flying until 65 or 70?
Yes obie2, as someone said to me a very long time ago, "A command on anything is better than a F/O on anything". One wonders.
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Interesting reading.
He also concurred with C/MED that there was limited data available to allow a scientific
justification to change the age limits for pilots, adding that the age of sixty was as arbitrary as any other number that
might be selected. Therefore, he supported consulting States through a questionnaire. On the other hand, he did not
consider that the process of submitting a questionnaire along with a proposed amendment without giving due
consideration to the results from the questionnaire was the best course of action, especially since he could not see an
urgent need to do so, particularly since the existing provisions had stood the test of time and should not be amended
in haste.
justification to change the age limits for pilots, adding that the age of sixty was as arbitrary as any other number that
might be selected. Therefore, he supported consulting States through a questionnaire. On the other hand, he did not
consider that the process of submitting a questionnaire along with a proposed amendment without giving due
consideration to the results from the questionnaire was the best course of action, especially since he could not see an
urgent need to do so, particularly since the existing provisions had stood the test of time and should not be amended
in haste.
Responding to the previous intervention, C/MED pointed out that, in the JAA context, there were
additional conditions attached to the upper age limit applied in the European countries, one being that an older pilot
could not function except in a multi-crew operation as well as the matter of the other member of the crew being
younger than sixty years of age.
additional conditions attached to the upper age limit applied in the European countries, one being that an older pilot
could not function except in a multi-crew operation as well as the matter of the other member of the crew being
younger than sixty years of age.