French ATC

[SR71]

Stop muddying the waters...

No one would complain if the reason "directs" aren't given is because of ATS constraints.

What folk object to, is the system being used by disgruntled employees to make a point.

This isn't about capacity, its playing politics with a safety critical element of Europe's transport infrastructure.

[Flapskew]

At least we are now allowed to file and fly direct routings over some of Europe at night. Considerable fuel and time savings. Win Win. Hopefully it can be extended to all of Eurocontrol Airspace during day time as well.

Not exactly helping the environment with all that extra carbon being dumped over France and Spain...

[pitotheat]

Every time you get these pan European Bureaucrats set up their cosy offices it is only a matter of time before instead of them serving the user groups/parties roles are reversed. Closer and closer integration in Europe I don't think so. Yet again the tail is wagging the dog. To suggest Eurocontrol collect on behalf of and pass on charges to individual states is a joke. This burdensome system takes a huge chunk of money to support itself. Whilst airlines struggle at times to make a few euros from each seat these talentless clowns are charging eye watering amounts of money to run a system and change it's procedures to suit itself.
Controllers across Europe must start to realize they are not immune to what the wider world is going through. We are all going to have to work harder with a squeeze on our T&Cs. Those in the public sector particularly in the med countries have got to wake up to the fact that the North Europeans are not going to continue to handover huge amounts of EU money so that they can continue their comfortable lifestyle. The gravy train has finished, either adapt or die.

[maybepilot]

french/spanish ATC: you have to cross FL 260 within 3 minutes
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: maintain mach .78 or more/less
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: descent FL 310
A/C: XXX descent FL 310
A/C: reporting moderate to severe turbulence at FL310, request climb back to FLXXX

french/spanish ATC: turn left/right HDGXXX (maybe when unable to reach FL260 within 3 minutes because of their letters of agreement)
A/C: unable due WX

french/spanish ATC: fly according to flight plan route
A/C: need left/right deviation to a HDG of xxx degrees and climb to higher level due WX (a shortcut and a higher cruising level in one call)

[Checkboard]

I see it every day with a certain Irish airline that files FL320 and always requests FL380 when on frequency

.. and it IS just a request. If it isn't available, a refusal doesn't offend.

- this causes extra workload (and throws all the predictions out) as we have to check with flow to see if there are any restrictions further down the route

.. its tough having to do a job, isn't it. If we are all going to fly as planned, perhaps we can automate ATC and save a load of money sacking all of the human controllers.

- maybe we should start charging them for every change to their plan (booking)

Fees are already charged. They include operational changes en-route - hence the requests you receive.

[Lon More]

Who's providing a Service here? Not Eurocontrol or it's Commitees, that's for sure.

What comes out of the Eurocontrol (and any other) committee is only as good as what goes in (RI-RO)

Maybepilot Has it ever occured to you that you may not be the only aircraft in that particular bit of airspace or that there may even be lots of military people playing around with flash bangs just off the airway?

Pitotheat for your information

The Route Charges System is operated in a very cost-efficient way, with low collection costs (less than 0.3%).

The governance of the Route Charges System is based on:


A decision-making process involving all Member States
A strong involvement of ANSP
A regular consultation of Airspace users through well-established consultation processes

Hardly a

burdensome system

considering that the costs, per country, would be about the same if each country charged individually.

Pilot: Dial in 7600 and stay up there.

Then sit back and enjoy the view as already suggested. BTW please retain the CVR tape for analysis. And if we really decide our plonker is being pulled, expect an unscheduled diversion and a long and thorough examination (including the lubricated rubber gloves)

[Squawk7777]

Then of course there's the language barrier...i.e.-where are the AF A/C and what are they doing??? Hope you speak "Francais"...

Ahhh, the favorite argument of a monoglot! Hope you'll never fly to Latin America. Stay home! The world outside your (limiting) box is seemingly too much for you to handle. Pathetic argument

[millerman]

Checkboard

Maybe in your world refusal doesn't offend but in my (real) world it often does, with quotes such as " do you know how much extra fuel we will have to burn ?" or even "why?" - take it up with your company and tell them to file the correct RFL and don't waste my time on the frequency.
By the way when automation comes to your utopia let me know, and I will happily retire to the beach - but I for one would not step on an aircraft again It is a lot easier to automate aircraft than ATC systems

[Mikehotel152]

Can't we just get along?

[Ancient Observer]

Lon,

er, 0.3% of a very, very, large sum of money is still a very large sum of money.
Especially when it should be close to zero................

[Avman]

Can't we just get along?

There was a time when we very much did so. Crews came to visit us and whenever we flew we were invited to the pointy end for the entire trip. This encouraged not only good relations but an opportunity to discuss and appreciate each others' job and operational frustrations.

Now days, both in ATC and at the pointy end of aircraft, there are too many young, selfish and arrogant know-it-all pups who think they're God's gift to aviation and the entire world should revolve around them. I've spotted one or two on this thread already.

[Lon More]

Ancient Observer the point is it's one time 0.3%, The alternative would be say, 4 countries overflown, therefore 4 x 0.3% + 1.2%. Then the extra work for the airline accounts dep. = more beancounters

Avman I was thinking along those lines too; and it wasn't Millerman

even baggage handlers came before you....

except they were called Co-Pilots then

one less prick aboard aircraft won't hurt....

Please move right down the bus!!

[Avman]

For sure not, he doesn't qualify as "young" any longer

[millerman]

Maybepilot
I am not there to serve you (or bow to your every whim) I am there to provide a SERVICE there is a big difference especially when your requests (because your company is trying to dodge restrictions) can compromise safety
I try to give the best directs I can at all times because I believe that is part of the service but when I am working my balls off and the R/T is busy and someone asks for direct through various military areas (normally stepping on someone else) with no situational awareness or awareness of anyone else in the sky - then I can get a little off ! If you could go direct there you already would be

If you want me to serve you then that is a completely different service and it will cost you a hell of a lot more
But I forgot some of you think you are royalty and everything should be there for you and no-one else!
God help us if you are allowed to separate yourselves with everyone wanting to fly at the same time at the same level with no-one backing down


Avman

Thanks - I certainly don't feel "young" at the moment. I will certainly feel a lot older if I have to start "serving" pilots !!

[maybepilot]

millerman,

don't have to explain how hard you work and how good you are at providing your service, what we experience on the line on a daily basis says it all already: just read the comments of those who "enjoy" the services of french/spanish ATC.


Please let us fly the flight planned route and talk to us the least you can, if we have a situation up there we'll tell you what we need and you just do what you are told as per your manual.

[christn]

What on earth has gone wrong with Aviation? Where has the mutual respect gone?

We have 18 year old, 9 to 5 office workers complaining that pilots are overpaid, controllers treating heavyweight 747s as though they were helicopters and pilots demanding all sorts of short cuts!

Let's face it, we are really not that clever, if we were we would not remain in what is becoming a toilet of an industry. We would earn huge bonuses, retire early and fly Tiger Moths on sunny days!

[poorjohn]

It is a lot easier to automate aircraft than ATC systems

Why? The system predicts conflicts, and TCAS-like software demonstrably knows how to resolve them. Lots more to do, and political issues, and everyone would like a friendly voice on the ground once in a while, but it's technically do-able.

[galaxy flyer]

As I said to a CFMU punter one day long ago, "not only do you control air traffic, you get to control how much air traffic you will control, obviously to your benefit." The bloody lot should be fired, except in France they might burn down the country in juvenile tantrum.

GF

[Blockla]

but it's technically do-able

My favourite line from "the Castle"... "Tell him he's dreaming"

If it were 'doable' it would've been done... ANSPs world wide spend around 60% of their revenue on wages imagine what profits could be made if they were able to automate ATC... The millions spent on 'automating' some of the functions and proving to be error ridden time and time again, never on time, never on budget, would suggest that we are a very, very long way off 'full automation'. Oil supplies will probably be exhausted before we get it done.

I feel incredibly sad that this juvenile name calling and chest thumping has dominated a thread that could have been constructive and opened up understanding at both sides of the mike... oh well... next thread...

[Farrell]

How can all this be true?

I have been told by a French ATCO that French ATCOs are the most highly trained and best in the world at being ATCOs.