Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Re: Canadians
R44: A few flights at St John's NF were cancelled last night based on VA warning in a SIGMET, which interestedly inconvenienced a few politicians and celebrities attending a national entertainment awards bash in town.
All back to normal now, at least on the domestic routes.
Quote from St John's Airport official: “It’s up to the airlines, it’s always up to the airlines,” said Marie Manning.
Volcanic cloud fears lift, Canadian airspace remains open
All back to normal now, at least on the domestic routes.
Quote from St John's Airport official: “It’s up to the airlines, it’s always up to the airlines,” said Marie Manning.
Volcanic cloud fears lift, Canadian airspace remains open
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We spend time researching and typing this guidance to avoid our aircraft owners and pilots getting into trouble. Goodnight.
I quite agree. What my 5th paragraph was getting at though is what iwantmyhols has said above.
What is this x ammount? Is it = 0? if so fine. But I am unconvinced that anybody KNOWS this. Also I am unconvinced that anyoen knows the exact concentrations in the predicted contamination areas.
I don't blame anyone at all. I think the VAAC did exactly what they were supposed to do and Nats did what they had to do initially. I just feel that much like the belated sending of an aged Arc Royal to pick up some punters, more should have been done to get quality data, much sooner.
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Data collected over Germany by DLR flight
The German center for air and space travel (DLR) accomplished a successful measuring flight on 19 April 2010 over Germany. After a flight time of more than three hours the Falcon returned to its base 20:45. The route went from Oberpfaffenhofen to Leipzig, then over Hamburg for Bilthoven (the Netherlands) and via Stuttgart to Oberpfaffenhofen. On the first leg the Falcon descended down to about two kilometers altitude and then climbed back to cruise level. During the remaining flight measurements were taken at altitudes between two and twelve kilometers. All measuring systems on board functioned perfectly. The LIDAR showed ash cloud structures in vertically separated layers. These layers were present at various altitudes en route. The aerosol measurements showed that the volcanic ash clouds encounterd had aged. A brownish cloud colouring was seen temporarily during the flight. These measurements permit a comparison with ground-based measurements (Actualization 19 April 2010, 22,00 o'clock)
DLR Portal - DLR-Forschungsflugzeug "Falcon 20E" zum Messflug gestartet
DLR Portal - DLR-Forschungsflugzeug "Falcon 20E" zum Messflug gestartet
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I understood that the BA flight flew at 40,000 feet, which is well above the ash cloud which topped at 35,000feet ( I think), so is that a representative test? Or proof that an aircraft can climb and descend through an ash cloud and have no damage, as opposed to the BA flight in the 80's which flew through the ash cloud for a prolonged period of time.
I'm not sure what altitude the KLM,DLH and AFR flights were at.
Louby
I'm not sure what altitude the KLM,DLH and AFR flights were at.
Louby
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For what its worth here are my thoughts......
I'd like a cup of tea.......more importantly..
We all know that Volcanic ash ruins and can destroy engines.
We all know that the Volcano is , or was spewing out ash.
We don't know what the concentrations are
We don't know how much ash it takes to ruin an engine(or pitot)
A BA 747 has no ash detection equipment on board...how do we know they or anyone else hit any ash. Is the ash evenly spread out or is it more dense in certain areas.
Next.
If my airline tells me to go flying tomorrow, where do I stand legally by saying I'd rather not.
I don't like people who point out problems without solutions.....so here's mine.
A few weeks ago a chap strapped a camera into a plastic box, attached it to a ballon and took plenty of pics from upto a few miles.
Why haven't the bods made small ash detection kits, attached them to balloons and started launching them. Assuming this is possible....
Lastly.
the kettles boiled, so I'm off.
I'd like a cup of tea.......more importantly..
We all know that Volcanic ash ruins and can destroy engines.
We all know that the Volcano is , or was spewing out ash.
We don't know what the concentrations are
We don't know how much ash it takes to ruin an engine(or pitot)
A BA 747 has no ash detection equipment on board...how do we know they or anyone else hit any ash. Is the ash evenly spread out or is it more dense in certain areas.
Next.
If my airline tells me to go flying tomorrow, where do I stand legally by saying I'd rather not.
I don't like people who point out problems without solutions.....so here's mine.
A few weeks ago a chap strapped a camera into a plastic box, attached it to a ballon and took plenty of pics from upto a few miles.
Why haven't the bods made small ash detection kits, attached them to balloons and started launching them. Assuming this is possible....
Lastly.
the kettles boiled, so I'm off.
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Sigh.
Nobody doubts that if you fly through a visible ash cloud billowing out of a volcano, or immediately downstream of it, then you are likely to damage the engines (and airframe for that matter). That was what happened to the BA aircraft.
At issue is whether flying in an "ash cloud" that is in fact invisible to the naked eye would be harmful to engines. If so, how invisible? If not, how dense?
Nobody doubts that if you fly through a visible ash cloud billowing out of a volcano, or immediately downstream of it, then you are likely to damage the engines (and airframe for that matter). That was what happened to the BA aircraft.
At issue is whether flying in an "ash cloud" that is in fact invisible to the naked eye would be harmful to engines. If so, how invisible? If not, how dense?
Paul:
If we knew the answer to that we might now be flying. Unfortunately nobody knows that just yet.
At issue is whether flying in an "ash cloud" that is in fact invisible to the naked eye would be harmful to engines. If so, how invisible? If not, how dense?
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We have gone full circle...again! We are just stating what we think we know and repeating what we have already asked/said.
What is needed is hard facts...data if you will. The DLR aircraft is a start but we have lost time here.
I'll make a prediction then.....airlines tomorrow will do they're darnest to get into the sky !
What is needed is hard facts...data if you will. The DLR aircraft is a start but we have lost time here.
I'll make a prediction then.....airlines tomorrow will do they're darnest to get into the sky !
Cocerning the latest eruption looking at the upper winds between FL 100 and FL240 I would expect this one to track over Scotland (maybe skirting Northern Ireland) and then track east to Scandinavia. So maybe south UK will be "ok"?
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I understood that the BA flight flew at 40,000 feet, which is well above the ash cloud which topped at 35,000feet ( I think), so is that a representative test?
GW
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Just watching the Icelandic president saying 'this eruption is a small reharsal of the Katla eruption......I'm not saying if but when.....it's time to start preparing for the katla eruption.'
let's be honest ladies and gentlemen. We don't know what the effects of these volcanic events are. I think most people will agree that a single flight in these ash cloud events of the last few day will probably not cause an instant engine failure. But how much will these ash clouds reduce the redundancies of an engine's life. Say a normal inspection period of a part is once every 100 flight hours. What if these ash clouds now cause that part to fail between these inspections. Normally part A will fail every 500 hours so needs to be inspected every 100 hours. However microscopic abraisive particles make it highly likely that said part may fail in 100 hours time. We're just eroding those levels of safety.
Just my tupneth worth
let's be honest ladies and gentlemen. We don't know what the effects of these volcanic events are. I think most people will agree that a single flight in these ash cloud events of the last few day will probably not cause an instant engine failure. But how much will these ash clouds reduce the redundancies of an engine's life. Say a normal inspection period of a part is once every 100 flight hours. What if these ash clouds now cause that part to fail between these inspections. Normally part A will fail every 500 hours so needs to be inspected every 100 hours. However microscopic abraisive particles make it highly likely that said part may fail in 100 hours time. We're just eroding those levels of safety.
Just my tupneth worth
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"A few weeks ago a chap strapped a camera into a plastic box, attached it to a ballon and took plenty of pics from upto a few miles.
Why haven't the bods made small ash detection kits, attached them to balloons and started launching them. Assuming this is possible....
Lastly.
the kettles boiled, so I'm off."
Enjoy your tea...
has anyone actually checked the effect of a camera, plastic box and balloon going down an intake? Suppose it would only stop the one, unless everyone started doing it.
May be irrelevant anyway;
BBC News - New volcano ash cloud prompts fresh flight doubts
If I were flying tomorrow, I'd take a night-stop kit.
Why haven't the bods made small ash detection kits, attached them to balloons and started launching them. Assuming this is possible....
Lastly.
the kettles boiled, so I'm off."
Enjoy your tea...
has anyone actually checked the effect of a camera, plastic box and balloon going down an intake? Suppose it would only stop the one, unless everyone started doing it.
May be irrelevant anyway;
BBC News - New volcano ash cloud prompts fresh flight doubts
If I were flying tomorrow, I'd take a night-stop kit.
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Anyone know anything about a turbine heli (emergency response) that had apparently been flying in the Edinburgh area to emergencies, beetween 1000ft - 2000ft agl for the last few days and is now apparently grounded due to severe engine damage associated with the ash ??
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Young Paul (and others), ignorance and the failure to learn from past mistakes, will be no excuse. Please read the already oft repeated incident in the same vicinity about 10 years ago...
SUMMARY
In the early morning hours of February 28, 2000, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) DC-8 Airborne Sciences research airplane inadvertently flew through a diffuse plume of volcanic ash from the Mt. Hekla volcano.
There were no indications to the flight crew, but sensitive onboard instruments detected the 35-hr-old ash plume. Upon landing there was no visible damage to the airplane or engine first-stage fan blades; later borescope inspection of the engines revealed clogged turbine cooling air passages. The engines were removed and overhauled at a cost of $3.2 million.
Satellite data analysis of the volcanic ash plume trajectory indicated the ash plume had been transported further north than predicted by atmospheric effects. Analysis of the ash particles collected in cabin air heat exchanger filters showed strong evidence of volcanic ash, most of which may have been ice-coated (and therefore less damaging to the airplane) at the time of the encounter. Engine operating temperatures at the time of the encounter were sufficiently high to cause melting and fusing of ash on and inside high-pressure turbine blade cooling passages.
There was no evidence of engine damage in the engine trending results, but some of the turbine blades had been operating partially uncooled and may have had a remaining lifetime of as little as 100 hr.
There are currently no fully reliable methods available to flight crews to detect the presence of a diffuse, yet potentially damaging volcanic ash cloud.On the basis of a single 'commercial' flight here and there, climbing through uncontested airspace to well above the levels that are deemed to be critical from this current eruption is not 'scientific' evidence. As responsible professionals we should be questioning whether it is commercial pressure being placed on governments to ignore the advice from their scientists.
Aside from the breathless enthusiasts and a few spotters craning their necks and ears to the skies for the sound of a jet engine overhead, the rest of us are debating the rights and/or wrongs of the current decision making over this issue. Haven't we had enough from the "we can't see it therefore there is no problem" brigades?
SUMMARY
In the early morning hours of February 28, 2000, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) DC-8 Airborne Sciences research airplane inadvertently flew through a diffuse plume of volcanic ash from the Mt. Hekla volcano.
There were no indications to the flight crew, but sensitive onboard instruments detected the 35-hr-old ash plume. Upon landing there was no visible damage to the airplane or engine first-stage fan blades; later borescope inspection of the engines revealed clogged turbine cooling air passages. The engines were removed and overhauled at a cost of $3.2 million.
Satellite data analysis of the volcanic ash plume trajectory indicated the ash plume had been transported further north than predicted by atmospheric effects. Analysis of the ash particles collected in cabin air heat exchanger filters showed strong evidence of volcanic ash, most of which may have been ice-coated (and therefore less damaging to the airplane) at the time of the encounter. Engine operating temperatures at the time of the encounter were sufficiently high to cause melting and fusing of ash on and inside high-pressure turbine blade cooling passages.
There was no evidence of engine damage in the engine trending results, but some of the turbine blades had been operating partially uncooled and may have had a remaining lifetime of as little as 100 hr.
There are currently no fully reliable methods available to flight crews to detect the presence of a diffuse, yet potentially damaging volcanic ash cloud.
Aside from the breathless enthusiasts and a few spotters craning their necks and ears to the skies for the sound of a jet engine overhead, the rest of us are debating the rights and/or wrongs of the current decision making over this issue. Haven't we had enough from the "we can't see it therefore there is no problem" brigades?
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It seems to me that there are people out there forgetting that there are passengers and crews lives at risk here. Not perhaps today or tomorrow but we just dont know the longterm effects of this stuff on engines. Anyone fancy being 180 mins away from the nearest diversion with the hot sections in both engines melting? I'm not an engineer or pilot but have seen what glass beads and sand can to to hot sections and it isn't pretty. Shoot me down if you like but the it seems to me there is to much guess work going on here. The other problems the airlines have is just how much of any damage to engines if it did happen would be covered by insurance. Big crash yes. knackered engine probably not. Big bills they can hardly afford at this point.
Right. My small rant over.
Right. My small rant over.
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Ryanair, Europe's largest low-cost carrier, has cancelled all flights to and from northern Europe until at least mid-Wednesday because of the ash cloud.
The airline's CEO, Michael O'Leary, has said he is "nervous" about the airlines who are seeking compensation because of the volcano. He also said that passengers seeking expenses in such extraordinary circumstances is "ludicrous."
BBC News - Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary says expenses "not fair"
The airline's CEO, Michael O'Leary, has said he is "nervous" about the airlines who are seeking compensation because of the volcano. He also said that passengers seeking expenses in such extraordinary circumstances is "ludicrous."
BBC News - Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary says expenses "not fair"
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Removed because of an almost identical post just prior to this (Ref NASA DC8)
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 19th Apr 2010 at 22:15. Reason: Duplication