Ash clouds threaten air traffic

[mixture]

adirondack (and other spotters),

please refer to Jetdriver's (PPRuNe Mod) post, #1754 on page 88 and stop clogging up the thread with virtual radar extracts etc.

The thread is already 90 odd pages long.....it's about time we started seeing some self-moderation and only posting if you've got something useful to say.

[kinsman]

Whippersnapper

Yes people do listen, this eruption is unusual but examples of the same type of ash has been produced by other volcanos in recent times. The restrictions over Europe are very unreasonable considering the evidence. I do not have the details of the damage to the fighters or what density of cloud they flew through. However, several airlines have flown aircraft in the cloud without damage so we need hard data not speculation.

I see a lot of talk from the Met office and government departments but not much action.

[bbrown1664]

reply to R31

The problem is the airspace below 20,000ft.

British carriers cant get to 20,000 without being below it first, everyone else is overflying above that level!

[scr1]

not much open overflights allowed

INV have been asked about possiably taking transatlantic diverts

Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Tuesday April 20, 0900

The situation regarding the volcanic eruption in Iceland remains dynamic and the latest information from the Met Office shows that the situation today will continue to be variable.
Based on the latest Met Office information, part of Scottish airspace including Aberdeen, Inverness and Edinburgh airports will continue to be available from 1300-1900 today, and also south to Newcastle Airport. Restrictions will remain in place over the rest of UK airspace below 20,000ft.
Overnight the CAA, in line with new guidance from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) decided flights above the ash cloud will be permitted in the UK; between 1300-1900 this will enable aircraft movements above 20,000ft in UK airspace.
We will continue to monitor Met Office information and the situation is likely to change during the course of the day. We will make a further statement at approximately 1500.
NATS is maintaining close dialogue with the Met Office and with the UK's safety regulator, the CAA, in respect of the international civil aviation policy we follow in applying restrictions to use of airspace.
We are working closely with Government, airports and airlines, and airframe and aero engine manufacturers to get a better understanding of the effects of the ash cloud and to seek solutions.

[kinsman]

NATS are responding to information given by the Met office and god knows who else but they cannot make a decision regarding the safety of the airspace but only react to the information they are given and at the moment that information may be floored. NATS is as much at the mercy of these people as the rest of us!

[tcmel]

Notam B0798/10 Has Been Published Stating That Aircraft May
Overflycontaminated Areas Within Uk Airspace From 0300z 20th
April Subjectto The Conditions Stated In The Notam.
.
Based On The Vaac Advisory Timed 0000z April 20th The Scottish
Fir/uir Outside Of The Contaminated Area Will Open At 0600z April
20th. The London Fir/uir Remains Zero Rated Below Fl200 Until
Further Notice.
.
Caution, Current Forecasts Indicate That The Situation Is
Changing Through The Day And Diversion Airfields May Be A
Significant Distance From The Original Destination
.
Flights Intending To Operate In The London And Scottish Uir's
Abovefl200 That Are Still Caught In Zero Rates Should Contact
Ukfmp To Be Excluded
.
Ukfmp ++441489588150

[Bruce Wayne]

ZQA297/30,

A LOT of operators do engine oil analysis, its a very cheap way of monitoring the condition of a very expensive engine. I have paid 180 bucks for an oil analysis.

Borescope inspections are routine, any maintenance facility will have a 4 grand Olympus borescope, again its a very cheap way of inspecting an expensive engine can be done on wing if need be and allows a visual without having to break the sections open with the time involved in the shop and often if you break a section open then you may have to perform an expensive and unneeded overhaul on disks and blades in that section.

It's understandable that perhaps non-aviation, non-pilots may have concerns through lack of knowledge, but for commercial pilots to have so little knowledge of how aircraft and their engines work and are maintained would be surprising.

Yet comparatively, is anyone that concerned about an aircraft that has been stored in a region less than 200 miles from a coastal area ?

Corrosion to blades (exacerbated by marine moisture) and disks is equally damaging (in different ways) to blades and disks, often the damage is enough to leave an engine subject to overhaul if a chemical bath and test cell run shows the damage more than superficial.

[stalling attitude]

What frustrates me at the moment is how we as pilots are supposed to be the experts in our field i.e flying aircraft and jump down anyones throat on here who dares suggest otherwise and yet many on here feel that it is ok to question the competence of the experts in other fields such as Met and Nats. I am no expert on volcanic eruptions and so am more than happy to listen to those who are and are basing their decisions on the best available data and models.

[call100]

Latest from NATS conference call..............

The current position is:

· The volcano is still erupting with plume up to 10000 to 15000 feet as advised by Iceland Met;
· Ash concentrations over 20000 feet are “dissipating” but “maintaining a significant risk over most of Europe”;
· UK position is “variable” but no current plans to open any more airspace other than Scotland FIR. However on current predictions by 1300 local today Inverness, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Newcastle should remain open but Glasgow, Prestwick and Prestwick may fall in contaminated area and fall out of the able to fly zone;
· At 1200 today decisions to be taken on the status of the component parts of UK airspace for the period from 1800 to 2400 – this will be issued on NOTAM;
· There are ongoing discussions between NATS and CAA as to some agreement on flying over / around cloud contamination using “hot spots” and “caution zones” but no agreement reached so far. NATS say they are pressing for a change of policy from CAA;
· Wind direction is expected to change by the end of the week turning to a west / south westerly direction;
· The issue of VFR was raised with comments re aircraft flying VFR below 21000 feet to Frankfurt;
· Met office plane will be flying from 1230 local around the UK to gather data on actual ash concentrations / contamination.

[Flyt3est]

Bruce,

I'd question the validity of Spectrometric Oil Analysis in this case, since the affected areas we are talking about on the engines aren't part of the wet system. Also Borescopes are not the be all and end all.. far from it. Yes you can check parts of the combustion chamber, and you can also check the first few compressor stages and one maybe two stages of the turbine if you are lucky, but the checks are a long way from being comprehensive.

FT

[OutsideCAS]

so, once again - why do the UK CAA not borescope the a/c of operators that have been regularily flying over the duration of the ban ?? as Bruce states, relatively cheap and should yield a conclusive answer as to whether any damage occurs over a sustained period or whether it is perfectly safe ?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<why do the UK CAA not borescope the a/c of operators that have been regularily flying over the duration of the ban ??>>

Which opereators, please? Today is the first time I have seen an overflight since last Thursday, at that one seemd to be all alone in southern UK airspace. There have been some low-level light aircraft and business jets but I'd hardly call them regular...

[coool guy]

Whippersnapper,
Most of Europe appears to have taken the bit and started flying tentatively at least, are you saying they are all reckless fools? You have now backpeddled and tried to justify closure by claiming the cloud is worse over the UK even though it is clearly shown pretty much everywhere. At this rate you will still be sticking to your guns when the dust is falling on your head alone! I admire your tenacity but not your logic or common sense.

[tocamak]

"Test" flights

Given the likelihood that LHR will be closed for most of the day at least I am surprised that BA (KLM, LH etc) who conducted test flights have not been even more forceful with their comments. Surely by now they would have been in a position to state exactly what they found on post-flight inspection rather than the rather vague "all was normal during the flight".

[Nemrytter]

Hello JetII

[Squawk_ident]

The only good news is about the weather. No clouds, blue sky, Cavok etc on most part of Europe. Important because it seems that the German airpace (and some others also) is closed for... IFR flights. Consequently only VFR for takeoff and landing. Just imagine what the situation would be if it was fog or pouring rain. The French are closed up to FL205 but we have our corridors to allow aircraft inside!

[OutsideCAS]

Heathrow Director,

Iceland volcano ash cloud flight risk 'blown out of proportion' airline claims | Metro.co.uk

well, for starters these guys seem to have been fairly regular - maybe not as the normal airline's on a normal day but surely a step in the right direction with regard to borescope inspection ??

[TRC]

I'd question the validity of Spectrometric Oil Analysis in this case, since the affected areas we are talking about on the engines aren't part of the wet system

There is probably a chance of contaminated air getting into the oil system via balancing air for the labyrinth seals.

PWC recommend an oil change in the event of flight through volcanic ash.

[Bruce Wayne]

I'd question the validity of Spectrometric Oil Analysis in this case, since the affected areas we are talking about on the engines aren't part of the wet system. Also Borescopes are not the be all and end all.. far from it. Yes you can check parts of the combustion chamber, and you can also check the forst few compressor stages and one maybe two stages of the turbine if you are lucky, but the checks are a long way from being comprehensive

Fly3est,

I didn't say Oil analysis would be in this case.

No, 'scopes are not the be all and end all, i didn't say they were either.

And it depends on the engine type what you can inspect, on the engines i have owned (all off wing from 737) have been able to inspect all the LPC, all the HPC and the T1 blades and disks. I have about 40 scope video on my shelf behind me, some of those engines I have owned some I have not.

As I said, what they enable is an understanding of what is going on, or rather, what has gone on in the engine without having to break it open and subject yourself to unnecessary maintence.

In the case of contaminant ingestion in this case, we know that damage can occur from the combustion chamber backwards and with the T1 operating higher than the material limits, as such a scope of the T section will provide an indicator of any damage due to contaminant ingestion.

I would rather scope an engine than not.

[Airclues]

The 'ash cloud' charts produced by the Met Office are computer predictions of where the ash might be, taking into account the wind at various levels. As is stated below the maps, they do not indicate the concentration (if any) of the ash.

Should we stop calling it an ash cloud and now call it an 'area of computer predicted possibility'?