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Ash clouds threaten air traffic

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Ash clouds threaten air traffic

Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:23
  #1061 (permalink)  
 
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"Aw, look, it's really not hard to do research. Launch an aeroplane, let it fly around for a couple of hours, then when it gets down, take the engine apart. It's not like the airlines, pilots or engineers have much else to do with their time at the moment."




I think Easy are looking to do that tomorrow, possibly from LTN?
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:28
  #1062 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly what I had on my car this mroning described to a tee. I'm in Peterborough.
My two cents? Saftey comes first.......... and I do have a replacable air filter under my bonnet.
Not a sausage here, on any of the last three days. Either at the office in Edinburgh or at home in Fife.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:31
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Amsterdam FIR opens for VFR traffic

Amsterdam FIR just opened up for VFR traffic:

A) EHAA
B) 1004181324 C) 1004182359EST
E) DUE TO VOLCANIC ACTIVITY IN ICELAND AND THE RESULTING ASHCLOUDS IN
THE AMSTERDAM FIR, ALL CIVIL IFR OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED.
VFR FLIGHTS ARE ALLOWED AT OWN DISCRETION. AFTER COMPLETING EACH VFR
FLIGHT A PILOT REPORT SHOULD BE FILED IMMEDIATLY TO
VULKAAN(AT)KNMI.NL CONTAINING FOLLOWING INFORMATION: ROUTE, ALTITUDE,
DATE AND TIME OF FLIGHT IN LOCAL TIME, OBSERVATIONS REGARDING
(ASH)CLOUDS. EVEN WHEN NO OBSERVATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE A PILOT REPORT
IS MANDATORY. WHEN EMAIL IS NOT AVBL A PILOT REPORT CAN BE MADE TO
LOCAL ATC BY RADIO OR AIRPORT AUTHORITY.
ALSO, CAA-NL STATES THE PITOT TUBE SHOULD BE CHECKED CAREFULLY BEFORE
AND AFTER EACH FLIGHT AND ALSO INCREASED MONITORING OF FLIGHT SPEED
AND HEIGHT INDICATION AND WINDSCREEN TRANSPARENCY DURING FLIGHT IN
THE RISK AREA.
POLICE, SAR AND HEMS FLIGHTS ARE EXEMPTED. SFC/FL245.)
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:34
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Aerologic are alledgedly attempting a LEJ-CVG flight today on a 777
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:38
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Germany
Berlin-Tegel, Berlin-Sch÷nefeld, Erfurt, Leipzig, Hannover and Hamburg

re opened for departures to the east.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:38
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Glad to see the (Met Research?) Dornier fly past here - near to EGOS - just now, hopefully finding out more for us. Slightly concerned though to see it so low - approx 1500-2000ft - as it continued northwards, presumably towards Manchester/west coast.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:42
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It seems like using those military drones with sensing equipment to measure ash would be the safest and most efficient way to monitor the cloud.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:46
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VAACman, I'm not a mod or anything, but welcome, and thanks for logging in. It's nice to hear from the experts.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:48
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The Finnish F18 experience

Puolustusvoimat - Frsvarsmakten - The Finnish Defence Forces

Worth a moment of the sceptics' time.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:49
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aviation in europe

It looks like the greenies and are charge all over Europe and the volcanic ash cloud has proved to be a godsent excuse to ground those horrible, noisy and dreadful polluting jets. The lunatics are in charge of the asylum. maybe or maybe not, time will tell.

Last edited by obnoxious; 18th Apr 2010 at 15:38.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:52
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There are Condor aircraft over Germany currently.

Flight Number
: CFG881
Company : Condor Flugdienst
ICAO Hex Code : 3C4AA6
Reg Code : D-ABUF
Model : Boeing - B767-330 (ER)
Last Message : 14:49:03 UTC
Latitude : 50.29923
Longitude : 8.15653
Altitude : 10126 m - 33222 ft
Ground Speed : 834 km/h - 518 mph - 450 knots
Vertical Speed : -858 m/min - -2815 ft/min (DESCENT)
Squawk : 7654
Heading : 302║

A second one is at 24,000.
Source: radarvirtuel.com/
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:54
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The point I was trying to make that there's a big difference between flying through a dense cloud of volcanic ash (like the BA) and flying through wat we have over Europe at the moment.
Well yes OK, circuitbreaker13, that is indeed the point, or part of it, but not in the way you intend. The stuff that's in the atmosphere now is potentially more lethal precisely because, given the role of ice in the eruption, it is not just garden-variety volcanic ash.

Some posts in this thread undermine my confidence in the judgement of many who practise the profession of pilotry (if there is such a word ...).
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 14:58
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response to WHBM's many questions to us all.

1. This comparison is irrelevant...... why? wind.

2. The indon incident, cost millions of dollars and nearly killed 400 people, if we told you that the concentration of ppm was x, how do you come up with a figure that is safe? You cannot.

3. See answer number 1.

4. no good answer here but, Enroute avoidance is slightly different from flying through what is known to be there. eg Depart into the ash, fly through it, land in it. Domestic European flight.

5. just a stab at this answer but ICAO rules prevent ATC from allowing you to use the airspace when ash is known or forecast. Perhaps in other parts of the world, ie indon, they don't subscribe to these parts of ICAO. I know that Australia picks and chooses what ICAO rules to adopt. That is why this volcano is different.

6. Hawaii may have been using a piston engine aircraft, or again may not have had laws preventing the flight.

7. Erm, Russia is more west than western europe. This argument is like saying why the hell is Kazakhstan and China still flying.


A return fire question to you. How many deaths need to spared for you to say that the ban was worth it?
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:03
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Marconiphone, so just what do you call those KLM, Lufthansa and Condor pilots who are flying right now in search of a solution? It's nice to say that the ice may even make this ash even more dangerous (please give a link to this, not heard it before), but that does not answer the question: is there enough of the stuff up here to do any damage?

Any sensible pilot would ground his airplane the moment he thinks there is a real threat out there, so that's not the point.


Allrounder, if 'wind' is your answer to question number one, we might as well close of the rest of the worlds airspace. Clearly that's not what you want. So the question is very relevant. How close was Moody to the vulcano, how relevant is his case to our little situation.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:07
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Germany has now opened the airports Berlin, Hannover, Erfurt and Leipzig until 2000 local time for flights to the East.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:09
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volcano webcams

They've been running for days... granted they're stationary, but whatever lens (or window the lens is behind) isn't pitted, or even dusted up..... You'd think at that proximity, even if all were upwind (and the two I'm watching are in opposition to each other, it would appear), you'd think there'd be SOME residue. No big conclusion being drawn (or jumped to) here, just a simple observation.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:17
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There are Condor aircraft over Germany currently.
Transavia are airborne to. Over Nijmegan at the moment. Seems everyone is at it.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:17
  #1078 (permalink)  
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I need some clarification about ash threat

It is almost ten years since I read this forum almost every day. I found an extaordinary amount of valuable and interesting informations. Some experts make here an extraordinary work. Bravo to all of them.

As I am only a SLF I refrained from posting until today (just reading up to now). I jumped over the fence because I have 2 facts that I am unable to fit with the general informations regarding the ash cloud and grounding of flights. This isprobably because I miss something and you may help me to know what.

1st fact:
All vulcanologists say that the present icelandic eruption is a small one (less than a cubic km of ash sofar) compared to some bigger eruption in the world which can throw up to several hundreds of cubic km of ash.
Iceland has several active volcanoes erupting each year with the same intensity or greater, sometimes several in the same time.
How can it happen that we were not hurt by the phenomenon during the last past 20 years? I found a partial answer in this thread : the jetstreams blow in an unfavarable and uncommon direction towards us. OK. But what is the usual direction ? The answer is also in this thread : directly from Iceland to the south mid-atlantic.

Therefore, what I do not understand is how transatlantic flights (some passing relatively close to Iceland) never cross ash clouds comming from active volcano in the past? It is hard to believe and apparently nobody has been frighten by this volcanic activity until nowadays. Why?

2nd fact
It happens that I was on board of a Lan Chile flight in april 2008 when the Chalten volcano has suddenly erupted with a HUGE eruption. Thru the window, I could see the huge column of ash although we were probably as far as 500 km away (a little south of Santiago). Fortunately for us, we were north-east of the volcano and the ash cloud was going straight to the west. BUT, the same week I had a phone call with my friends who live in Buenos Aires and they told me they could hardly breathe because of the volcanic smoke which was comming up to them right in the street of Buenos Aires (1500 km away from the volcano). As far as I know (I was watching at the announced schedules to see if my next flights were affected) none or very little flights have been canceled during this period. Including the flights BA - Calafate and BA - Ushuaia which were passing relatively close to the volcano downwind.

I ear that the present situation is very dangerous, enough to ground the entire european fleet, but this seems to me relatively uncompatible which what I described above. Please can somebody help me to find what it special with thr current volcanic activity?

By the way, it is not just free speculation, I expect to fly to Indonesia in 10 days from now if the gods and ATC permit.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:19
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Ash will damage jet engines and piston ones as well (If they have no filters).

The dust cloud these day at my latitude may be lingering high above me but i don't see it. It must be well diluted... The sky is deep blue and at night stars are deep white...

Airports are quiet, and liners have their intakes covered, sometimes by improvised plastic and tape.

"Dust" is now the issue but what about sand ? Nobody talks about it.

I am not even referring to sand Storms but to thermic moderate winds blowing in many North African places and Gulf states .

Last year in September I went to an Airshow in Tripoli Libya, with a Sukhoi 29 and 2 Extra 300's.

The weather was really great with only light wind blowing.

That light wind was carrying sand, to be deposited all over the place.

Neither the Sukhoi nor the Extra's have air filters. So the cylinders ingurgitate what bother's our eyes and grind our teeth.

Nothing we could do about it, other than cover the air intakes whenever we were not flying, and flushing those canopies with water to avoid scratching.

But what about the Mig's , Marchetti's, Antonov's and Boeings most used daily all covered with a thin layer of sand ???

Let me tell you, when we came back home we had to strip every panel and clean every part, shampoo for fuselage and wings, gasoline with compressed air for the engine bay, the undercarriage and all hinges.

Sand was everywhere, we brought back a few ounces judging by the brownish streak left on the floor after water/gasoline evaporated..

I'd like to hear about someone who has experience with such an environment, or somebody who'se been working on engines exposed to such a harsh treatment!!!
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:20
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tcmel,

granted they're stationary
You may have answered your own question. Stationary, versus aircraft moving at 600MPH and Fan blades turning at a high RPM.
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