Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Join Date: May 2008
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I completely agree with you. The authorities are being so paranoid careful that they are doing more damage than they are trying to prevent. At least you are in a hotel room with a bar, and I am luckily at home, and I fear for the industry too just like you do. The skittish authorities sitting at home enjoying a weekend off ought to go sleep in Heathrow or Frankfurt in a cot for six days with no shower and money run out, in order to contemplate that life always has risks. Thunderstorms have claimed a lot more lives than ash clouds, so the next step is close the airspace all summer because a thunderstorm may pop up unexpectedly? Icing, thunderstorms, unexpected fog, etc, etc, we have to deal with it, not hide in the bunker. Every now and then a Titanic has the lousy luck to hit an iceberg, while a thousand other ships reach safe harbor. These authorities would never have let Columbus leave port. Oh yes, while we're at it, when you do finally get on, take off your shoes and underwear and no water or shampoo allowed, and give me that nail file. We are legislating and regulating and restricting an essential service out of business.
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Kl7421 744 Tncc-eham...
Also the B777 was an position flight from DUS to AMS as KL7461.
KLM was doing one testflight with an B737 in the morning on the AMS-DUS-AMS routing which was positive without any affect to the aircraft. So they are now starting to ferry there stranded aircrafts from DUS back to AMS:
Greetings
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Start flying!
KLM, like other EU company`s, wants to fly. The beancounters, pennlickers, civil servants are not taken scientific studies from NASA into account. CAA and Eurocontrol are slow working government bodies.
Aircraft avoid visible ashclouds or known positions of clouds. Dispersing ash over the globe are not visible ashclouds and do not influence aircraft performance as demonstrated by aircraft returning to their base.
When Pinatubo and other dangerous vulcanos errupted the airspace was NOT closed. Warnings for air traffic were NOTAMed. Those aerosol clouds dispersed around the world and affected global weather.The density of the aerosols was and is not large enough to affect a/c engines. Aircraft kept on flying.
Aircraft avoid visible ashclouds or known positions of clouds. Dispersing ash over the globe are not visible ashclouds and do not influence aircraft performance as demonstrated by aircraft returning to their base.
When Pinatubo and other dangerous vulcanos errupted the airspace was NOT closed. Warnings for air traffic were NOTAMed. Those aerosol clouds dispersed around the world and affected global weather.The density of the aerosols was and is not large enough to affect a/c engines. Aircraft kept on flying.
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ditto, I thought it was great initially, few beers, couple of days off etc.....the cold light of day is emerging and if this is not resolved by mid next week, staff imo are at risk, me too. Also my heart goes out to crews stuck worldwide in hotels not knowing when they are going to get home. Even when this is resolved re flights back working again there will be chaos in airports with folk trying to get on flights.
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depleted population?
Quote: #849
For example, in the UK, around 3,000 people die in road accidents caused by motor cars each day....
That is about a million per year. We just can't sustain that loss!
You meant 'worldwide' I think
For example, in the UK, around 3,000 people die in road accidents caused by motor cars each day....
That is about a million per year. We just can't sustain that loss!
You meant 'worldwide' I think
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A nice break?
Originally Posted by Desk-pilot
Just enjoy the break and the time with family and friends...
Beady Eye
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a: Will never fly again
and
b: SLF will avoid that company like the plague and it'll go bust.
Rock & hard place come to mind.
BD
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Main worry
The KL test flight can only give some partial indications and further prolonged tests will have to be done before any conclusion is reached.Flying in volcanic ash for 30 mins or 1.5 hour can have opposite effects and results.
The invisble ash is 100% real over our sky: a clear blue sky does not mean anything in volcanic ash terms, you can check your car and you can clearly see the layer of golden dust if you live under the cloud. Up in the air there is a lot more of that fine abrasive invisible material. High atmospheric pressure means the cloud is not moving much, weather did not help at all.
The main worry now remains the duration of this eruption and the neighbour Katla.
The present activity could last several months and, even if winds will change direction and ash emissions will reduce, European air traffic might be intermittently disrupted again for long periods. Frightening.
We must hope that this volcano calms down asap, the biggest danger remains Katla which could activate within 2 years if it follows the historical pattern.
At this stage nobody really knows what is going to happen
Nature is in full charge.
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Actual data compared with modelling
Could somebody clarify what data decisions are presently being made on?
From this thread I have gathered that the ash is not visible to the naked eye, except in very high concentrations. What levels of ash contamination are visible to satellite imagery?
Having got down to level below which it is not visible on satellite imagery, I presume everything else is based on computer modelling. The longer the eruptions continue, the further the ash spreads and the more complex the weather patterns have been to disperse the ash. Therefore the accuracy of the model will get gradually worse, because there is being little or no verification of the predicted data with measurement.
So I am assuming that once the ash is no longer detectable on satellite imagery, the accuracy of any other predictions is gradually getting less.
Have I totally misread the situation?
Phil
From this thread I have gathered that the ash is not visible to the naked eye, except in very high concentrations. What levels of ash contamination are visible to satellite imagery?
Having got down to level below which it is not visible on satellite imagery, I presume everything else is based on computer modelling. The longer the eruptions continue, the further the ash spreads and the more complex the weather patterns have been to disperse the ash. Therefore the accuracy of the model will get gradually worse, because there is being little or no verification of the predicted data with measurement.
So I am assuming that once the ash is no longer detectable on satellite imagery, the accuracy of any other predictions is gradually getting less.
Have I totally misread the situation?
Phil
death by traffic
Quote: #849
For example, in the UK, around 3,000 people die in road accidents caused by motor cars each day....
Think he means deaths involving all motor vehicles per YEAR in the UK. It's about 10 a day including pedestrians etc.
For example, in the UK, around 3,000 people die in road accidents caused by motor cars each day....
Think he means deaths involving all motor vehicles per YEAR in the UK. It's about 10 a day including pedestrians etc.
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Orionsbelt
#864. Excellent post. The big problem that we face is that the government agencies which started this hare running have to find a face-saving way to extract themselves from the mess. Meanwhile the worldwide economic damage is incalculable. Jobs will be lost, businesses will be lost. Lives also will be lost.
IMHO this is not about bravery or cowardice which, as has already been written, has no place in aviation. It is about judgment.
IMHO this is not about bravery or cowardice which, as has already been written, has no place in aviation. It is about judgment.
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You arent the only one stuck, plenty of us in this boat together! Yea it is very serious especially since its still erupting and no end in sight, job security is a huge worry, may have to have a few more beers in the bar, think how to apply for a job on a cruise liner.
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KLM test flight
The test flight has only proven there's no immidate threat to aircraft flying through such dilluted clouds of volcanic ash!!!
Anyone with enough common sense could have told you before the flight.
Even after boroscoping these engines afer the testflight would not show anything but that doesn't mean it's all ok.
After longer periods of operating airplanes and their engines with these conditions it could very well have effect!!!!!
But the good news is that all aircraftengines are monitored via a health monitoring system.
So if after some time residue will start building up on some engineparts it will be picked up as the engine will start over time to run hotter and less fuel efficient!
So I think it should be a commercial choice to fly or not to fly as engines will last maybe only 3000 hours on wing rather then 5000 hours but there is no immidiate danger!!!
Anyone with enough common sense could have told you before the flight.
Even after boroscoping these engines afer the testflight would not show anything but that doesn't mean it's all ok.
After longer periods of operating airplanes and their engines with these conditions it could very well have effect!!!!!
But the good news is that all aircraftengines are monitored via a health monitoring system.
So if after some time residue will start building up on some engineparts it will be picked up as the engine will start over time to run hotter and less fuel efficient!
So I think it should be a commercial choice to fly or not to fly as engines will last maybe only 3000 hours on wing rather then 5000 hours but there is no immidiate danger!!!
