Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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lomapaseo
Not sure but I think a photo in this article (link below) shows that very thing... or if not melted then certainly able to clog the cooling holes?
Why Can't Planes Fly Through Volcanic Ash? NASA Found Out the Hard Way | Popular Science
I don't recall that there is any documented cases of melted VA inside a turbine blade
Why Can't Planes Fly Through Volcanic Ash? NASA Found Out the Hard Way | Popular Science
TyroPicard
Yes those pictures have been posted many times within this thread. They closely match the known severe events affecting engines.
The discussion just above had to do with VA melting inside the turbine blades if the cooling air is hot enough.
as always follow you FCOMs, it's easier to change those than to convince all pilots of the finer points
Not sure but I think a photo in this article (link below) shows that very thing... or if not melted then certainly able to clog the cooling holes?
The discussion just above had to do with VA melting inside the turbine blades if the cooling air is hot enough.
as always follow you FCOMs, it's easier to change those than to convince all pilots of the finer points
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Risk management!
Well, you would have to be a fool or suicidal to go fly in such an ash cloud:
But it took a bunch of pen licking scientist and bureaucrats to stop me from flying in this kind of weather: (And that's what the weather actually looked like over Belgium during the first NO-FLY weekend!)
Let's hope common sense will prevail if this or another volcano starts erupting again.
But it took a bunch of pen licking scientist and bureaucrats to stop me from flying in this kind of weather: (And that's what the weather actually looked like over Belgium during the first NO-FLY weekend!)
Let's hope common sense will prevail if this or another volcano starts erupting again.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Horses for courses, as they say. I reckon, however, there will be some little pink bottoms that will need levering off seat cushion buttons when one of the 2 engines goes POP mid-ocean with 120-180 minutes at MCT to nearest
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You mean when a bird goes down the intake BOAC?!
Or the fuel calcs are wrong (or the wrong fuel gauge fitted!) and plane runs out of fuel?!
Or the water sed checks aren't done correctly and the donk flames out cos it's trying to burn water?!
Can't be anything to do with ash 'cos us engineer's can't find any damage from VA!
Somebody mentioned sand blasting on a Ruinair flight; Atmospheric sand, grit, pollen, small parachutists, what-have-you, is constantly eroding surfaces long before Erecckkkllannnoorrookkkfffic exploded. If you pilot chaps have a close look at your pitot probes and leading edges you'll see they're all eroded to some extent.
Or the fuel calcs are wrong (or the wrong fuel gauge fitted!) and plane runs out of fuel?!
Or the water sed checks aren't done correctly and the donk flames out cos it's trying to burn water?!
Can't be anything to do with ash 'cos us engineer's can't find any damage from VA!
Somebody mentioned sand blasting on a Ruinair flight; Atmospheric sand, grit, pollen, small parachutists, what-have-you, is constantly eroding surfaces long before Erecckkkllannnoorrookkkfffic exploded. If you pilot chaps have a close look at your pitot probes and leading edges you'll see they're all eroded to some extent.
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Originally Posted by irm
You mean when a bird goes down the intake BOAC?!
Can't be anything to do with ash 'cos us engineer's can't find any damage from VA!
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Not an attack on your post BOAC (difficult to express intonation in text!), simply pointing out there's a lot of stuff that'll bring an airliner down before VA does.
I have seen no evidence of VA damage. I know of no other engineer that has. Friends of mine work in engine bays as well as line stations, the grapevine would quickly flash up evidence of this nature, if it didn't Sunfish would!
You're right, I have no record of birdstrikes at FL400. Nor have I any evidence of volcanic ash damage.
I have seen no evidence of VA damage. I know of no other engineer that has. Friends of mine work in engine bays as well as line stations, the grapevine would quickly flash up evidence of this nature, if it didn't Sunfish would!
You're right, I have no record of birdstrikes at FL400. Nor have I any evidence of volcanic ash damage.
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Sunfish:
errr - what are you actually 'sick' about? Comments about inappropriate regulations? Inaction? Slow response?
I assume your ICAO reference is intended to reassure that ICAO is rushing about doing stuff and the results will be Real Soon. The meat (such as it is) of the press release says:
Looks like a bit of 'Manana, but without the same sense of urgency' to me. Decide what report to write by 1st August and then spend the next 9 months writing it. But reports of any kind do not actually DO anything. On this timetable, there'd be no prospect of even getting the VA concentrations harmonized by mid-2011.
And 'options' are quite easy to write up. Selecting and implementing the right one (starting May 2011 at earliest) might take a bit longer. Slow? Inactive? Complacent? Pretty-much as useful as a Chocolate Teapot? You choose!
'Never mistake Activity for Effective Action'.
And meanwhile, in Another Part of the Forest, Easyjet is making PR capital (even if not actually gaining useful competitive advantage) by putting IR cameras on some of its aircraft at the cost, it says, of £1m. (see other posting). Well, at least it's action, even if uncoordinated and possibly not terribly useful.
I'm sick of this. Comments slagging off about regulators are just unfounded.
I assume your ICAO reference is intended to reassure that ICAO is rushing about doing stuff and the results will be Real Soon. The meat (such as it is) of the press release says:
The multidisciplinary team of experts from States and industry facilitated by ICAO will prepare by 1 August a report on lessons learned from the crisis and identify guidance material and contingency plans which need to be updated. Building on the report, a roadmap for establishing globally-harmonized ash concentration thresholds, options for improved detection systems of volcanic ash, as well as recommendations to improve notification and warning systems, will be completed by May 2011.
And 'options' are quite easy to write up. Selecting and implementing the right one (starting May 2011 at earliest) might take a bit longer. Slow? Inactive? Complacent? Pretty-much as useful as a Chocolate Teapot? You choose!
'Never mistake Activity for Effective Action'.
And meanwhile, in Another Part of the Forest, Easyjet is making PR capital (even if not actually gaining useful competitive advantage) by putting IR cameras on some of its aircraft at the cost, it says, of £1m. (see other posting). Well, at least it's action, even if uncoordinated and possibly not terribly useful.
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Solution?
Ground breaking volcanic ash detector
Following the Eyjafjallajoekull eruption, the travelling population of Europe may have become acutely aware of the fact that fine ash from the volcanoes is hazardous to jet aircraft and can remain in the atmosphere for a long time as it is transported by the winds.
Technology developed at NILU might in the near future enable aircraft to detect the ash from the eruption up to 100 km away.
Fred Prata, Senior scientist at NILU.
Senior scientist Fred Prata has developed the ground-breaking volcanic ash detector that allows the aircraft to see the microscopic ash particles and avoid it.
The specially developed camera will be able to give five minute warnings both day and night about ash ahead. Even better detection through the models is being developed at NILU at this very moment, ensuring that such crisis can be avoided in the future.
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud. The aircraft will then be able to steer clear of clouds and continue the journey instead of being put on the ground for an indefinite amount of time, as they do today," Prata says.
He believes it could save airlines enormous costs, and save the passengers from cancellations and delays.
Following the Eyjafjallajoekull eruption, the travelling population of Europe may have become acutely aware of the fact that fine ash from the volcanoes is hazardous to jet aircraft and can remain in the atmosphere for a long time as it is transported by the winds.
Technology developed at NILU might in the near future enable aircraft to detect the ash from the eruption up to 100 km away.
Fred Prata, Senior scientist at NILU.
Senior scientist Fred Prata has developed the ground-breaking volcanic ash detector that allows the aircraft to see the microscopic ash particles and avoid it.
The specially developed camera will be able to give five minute warnings both day and night about ash ahead. Even better detection through the models is being developed at NILU at this very moment, ensuring that such crisis can be avoided in the future.
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud. The aircraft will then be able to steer clear of clouds and continue the journey instead of being put on the ground for an indefinite amount of time, as they do today," Prata says.
He believes it could save airlines enormous costs, and save the passengers from cancellations and delays.
But it took a bunch of pen licking scientist and bureaucrats to stop me from flying in this kind of weather: (And that's what the weather actually looked like over Belgium during the first NO-FLY weekend!)
Rather good perceptive posts above and in some cases sounding at odds with one another 
The status quo takes a long time to change all the various opinions in our industry. Especially when it seemed to "get by" and more pressing problems du jour arise.
The status quo takes a long time to change all the various opinions in our industry. Especially when it seemed to "get by" and more pressing problems du jour arise.
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The specially developed camera will be able to give five minute warnings both day and night about ash ahead. Even better detection through the models is being developed at NILU at this very moment, ensuring that such crisis can be avoided in the future.
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud.
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud.
Yeah - right. You get '5 minutes' (or less) warning of 'VA Ahead' - then you have to contact ATC, request a route / height change, wait for ATC to decide based on other traffic, etc. and action whatever change is advised. Err - not in 5 minutes, if everyone on your route and its reciprocal, at several different FLs, are all going through the same process!!!! Utter chaos would result. It's all very well arguing about 'Captain's Authority' deciding where the aircraft goes but in controlled airspace it's not a realistic scenario to actually exercise it as apparently proposed.
More bang for your buck
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This might be worth watching:
Volcanic Ash: The Ticking Timebomb
Tuesday 08 June
8:00pm - 9:00pm
Five
Documentary exploring the likelihood and potential global effects of the eruption of Katla, a huge volcano lurking under the Icelandic ice. Katla is five times the size of its neighbour Eyjafjallajokull, which recently caused so much travel disruption when it blew clouds of volcanic ash into the atmosphere. Historically, every Eyjafjallajokull eruption has been followed by a flare-up at Katla. If such an eruption were to happen now, it is predicted that European airspace would be closed down for 18 months.
Volcanic Ash: The Ticking Timebomb
Tuesday 08 June
8:00pm - 9:00pm
Five
Documentary exploring the likelihood and potential global effects of the eruption of Katla, a huge volcano lurking under the Icelandic ice. Katla is five times the size of its neighbour Eyjafjallajokull, which recently caused so much travel disruption when it blew clouds of volcanic ash into the atmosphere. Historically, every Eyjafjallajokull eruption has been followed by a flare-up at Katla. If such an eruption were to happen now, it is predicted that European airspace would be closed down for 18 months.
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it is predicted that European airspace would be closed down for 18 months.
It is unusual for airflows over Iceland to track towards the UK so how come 18 months? if that last load of scaremongering like the rest of the so called scientific scares from everything from BirdFlu to ash ever came true?
Oh well maybe one day they will actually get one right who knows? But that will probably be more luck than anything else or in that case bad luck
Pace
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really what should they have done??? Firstly talked to airlines who are used to dealing with ash in active volcano areas and use their operational advice.
Second use satellite real time visible ash plume monitoring. Stick a safety margin around those and make those dense ash areas NO GO.
Fly in daylight and if possible avoid flying in clouds especially pollution coloured clouds.
The mathematical computer generated low ash areas should have no ash limits at all ( better than choosing a number between one and ten)
but should have been purely precautionary areas. I say that because even with millions of tests you have no way of telling whether half a mile from the test spot you dont have denser areas.
Operate in those predicted low ash areas and be prepared for more inspections to monitor longer term ash damage if any.
Lastly eliminate all the expensive quangos and committees involved in the descision making process on the basis that committees can never agree about anything (No one ever built a statue to a committee and have one body to make descisions
Thats it NO more NO less
Pace
Second use satellite real time visible ash plume monitoring. Stick a safety margin around those and make those dense ash areas NO GO.
Fly in daylight and if possible avoid flying in clouds especially pollution coloured clouds.
The mathematical computer generated low ash areas should have no ash limits at all ( better than choosing a number between one and ten)
but should have been purely precautionary areas. I say that because even with millions of tests you have no way of telling whether half a mile from the test spot you dont have denser areas.Operate in those predicted low ash areas and be prepared for more inspections to monitor longer term ash damage if any.
Lastly eliminate all the expensive quangos and committees involved in the descision making process on the basis that committees can never agree about anything (No one ever built a statue to a committee
and have one body to make descisionsThats it NO more NO less
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jun 2010 at 23:35.
Lastly eliminate all the expensive quangos and committees involved in the descision making process on the basis that committees can never agree about anything (No one ever built a statue to a committee and have one body to make descisions
Agree about the decsion making part of it not being dependant on committees and the need for a specific process tuned to daily info to make such decisions.
The committees are useful to evaluate the considerations that should be accounted for in the decision process. Hence in the regulatory sense we have codified rules and we have avisory material