Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Czech airspace closure?
Originally Posted by oversteer
Anyoe have any views on whether Czech airspace will be closed tomorrow?
Extrapolating from the 0600 and 1200 maps, it doesn't look great at present ..
Extrapolating from the 0600 and 1200 maps, it doesn't look great at present ..
Looking at these charts, I don't think there's going to be any disruption in Czech airspace today.
Take care,
Sabenaboy
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Why did France not close its Southern Airspace?
Spain closed parts of its airspace yesterday, so did Italy in the north today. Of course the ash got there by passing trough Southern France. Ash concentration charts for 0000Z on 09/05/2010 indicated a thick black area over the whole Cote Azure, yet the airspace remained open.
In a Notam, France reminded pilots and operators to check Sigmets/Notam/Ashtam before flight, but passed the bucket to the pilots/operators to decide whether or not it's safe to fly. Spain and Italy determined that it would not be safe under the circumstances.
Do you think it's justified to leave the decision to fly with pilots and operators?
Latest ash concentration charts by VAAC London can be found here: Met Office: Icelandic volcano - Zoom air ash concentration charts
In a Notam, France reminded pilots and operators to check Sigmets/Notam/Ashtam before flight, but passed the bucket to the pilots/operators to decide whether or not it's safe to fly. Spain and Italy determined that it would not be safe under the circumstances.
Do you think it's justified to leave the decision to fly with pilots and operators?
Latest ash concentration charts by VAAC London can be found here: Met Office: Icelandic volcano - Zoom air ash concentration charts
Do you think it's justified to leave the decision to fly with pilots and operators?
bb
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It should not be entirely up to the pilots, but since no politician in Europe has the leadership skills and balls required for the job, it is left up to us. Instead of sending up drones, balloons or using other test/sample equipment or boroscope examination results already available from all carriers in Europe, the politicians, as usual, chicken out. They're not even wiling to provide us with any sort of drone/test flight/ laser measurement data.
Without a plethora of committees and subcommittees to hide behind, no fall guy and no way to shift the blame, they are scared sh!tless and need human shields (pilots) outside their offices.
I have never heard of similar situations in other parts of the world, even though volcanoes erupt everywhere, all the time! That said, I have no second thoughts about flying in Zone 2 / low contamiation areas. I am more worried about bird strikes and thunderstorms, since these have brought down far more aircraft than invisible computer generated ash clouds...
Without a plethora of committees and subcommittees to hide behind, no fall guy and no way to shift the blame, they are scared sh!tless and need human shields (pilots) outside their offices.
I have never heard of similar situations in other parts of the world, even though volcanoes erupt everywhere, all the time! That said, I have no second thoughts about flying in Zone 2 / low contamiation areas. I am more worried about bird strikes and thunderstorms, since these have brought down far more aircraft than invisible computer generated ash clouds...
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Perhaps the French quite rightly have concluded that it is better for the pilot/operator to make the final call, given good accurate indicative information, rather than some government department stating that airspace is closed ufn.
Far more sensible and realistic approach by the French imo.
Far more sensible and realistic approach by the French imo.
It should not be entirely up to the pilots, but since no politician in Europe has the leadership skills and balls required for the job, it is left up to us. Instead of sending up drones, balloons or using other test/sample equipment or boroscope examination results already available from all carriers in Europe, the politicians, as usual, chicken out.
Make up you mind do - you want 'politicians' (actually the experts are giving the guidance) making the decision or do you want operators to decide themselves?
The science says you can't fly. Whats the point of sending "up drones, balloons or using other test/sample equipment or boroscope examination results already available from all carriers" when it simply confirms the know extent, distribution and effect of VA?
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FAAM Flying Programme?
Hi
Like others on this thread I question why the UK Gov sold off the C130 "Snoopy" in 2001.
Were it still with us it would be an ideal platform for measuring ash concentrations and could contribute real data in support of predictions.
Today we rely on a partnership programme from Cranfield run by BAE and others using a modified RJ.
What's the RJ doing this weekend? Where is it operating? Can an RJ fly as high or as far as Snoopy? The FAAM programme does not provide much reassurance.
I fear this summer will see Billions wiped off the airline industry at a time when many carriers of all sizes are close to the financial edge.
The European airline industry needs real time real measurements in order to ensure we can keep flying for as long as is safely possible.
The UK contribution of an RJ run by BAE and others looks a bit light weight to me....
Regards Bigpants
Like others on this thread I question why the UK Gov sold off the C130 "Snoopy" in 2001.
Were it still with us it would be an ideal platform for measuring ash concentrations and could contribute real data in support of predictions.
Today we rely on a partnership programme from Cranfield run by BAE and others using a modified RJ.
What's the RJ doing this weekend? Where is it operating? Can an RJ fly as high or as far as Snoopy? The FAAM programme does not provide much reassurance.
I fear this summer will see Billions wiped off the airline industry at a time when many carriers of all sizes are close to the financial edge.
The European airline industry needs real time real measurements in order to ensure we can keep flying for as long as is safely possible.
The UK contribution of an RJ run by BAE and others looks a bit light weight to me....
Regards Bigpants
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It should not be entirely up to the pilots, but since no politician in Europe has the leadership skills and balls required for the job, it is left up to us. Instead of sending up drones, balloons or using other test/sample equipment or boroscope examination results already available from all carriers in Europe, the politicians, as usual, chicken out.<snip>I have never heard of similar situations in other parts of the world, even though volcanoes erupt everywhere, all the time!
Personally I'm very glad that governments are making the decision to close airspace and it's not left up to pilots/commercial pressures on airlines. I believe that governments have a responsibility to their citizens to make decisions for their safety. A plane falling on my head, my wife's, my family or friends is not something I wish to happen. Engine manufacturers have (finally) decided on a 'safe' level of ash ingestion and governments are applying regulations based on the 'unsafe' ash forecast areas.
BD
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Perhaps the French quite rightly have concluded that it is better for the pilot/operator to make the final call, given good accurate indicative information, rather than some government department stating that airspace is closed ufn.
Far more sensible and realistic approach by the French imo.
Far more sensible and realistic approach by the French imo.
BD
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Were it still with us it would be an ideal platform for measuring ash concentrations and could contribute real data in support of predictions.
BD
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Vulcano ashes & Pitot probes
Hi there. Don't know if this has been mentionned but isn't the accelerated clogging & obstruction of the Pitot tubes by vulcano ashes a potential danger ?
Jeff
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FAAM flying programme
To reassure Bigpants;
>>>"Were it still with us it would be an ideal platform for measuring ash concentrations and could contribute real data in support of predictions."
The BAe 146-301 G-LUXE has become far more capable than Snoopy, and has recently had extra instrumentation fitted especially for the ash sniffing role. It is contributing real data in support of the science models used to predict the location of the ash.
>>>"Today we rely on a partnership programme from Cranfield run by BAE and others using a modified RJ."
The aircraft is tasked by the science teams involved in the research - Met Office and University, to be pedantic (on pprune, never!) BAE are the aircraft owners, they do not define the science programme.
>>>"The UK contribution of an RJ run by BAE and others looks a bit light weight to me...."
It most certainly is not!!
The aircraft tasking is continously under review so that it is used to best effect and, as you can see from the FAAM website, it is currently devoted to the 'VOLCANO' tasking. There is intense activity 'behind the scenes' to ensure aircraft and instrument availability and to optimise the aircraft operation.
G-LUXE was the prototype 146-100 and was flown then as G-SHHH (whisperjet). The airframe was then modified to become the 146-300 test airframe, now G-LUXE, before the conversion to type 146-301, the unique aircraft you see now. I believe that means it was never an RJ.
Jim
>>>"Were it still with us it would be an ideal platform for measuring ash concentrations and could contribute real data in support of predictions."
The BAe 146-301 G-LUXE has become far more capable than Snoopy, and has recently had extra instrumentation fitted especially for the ash sniffing role. It is contributing real data in support of the science models used to predict the location of the ash.
>>>"Today we rely on a partnership programme from Cranfield run by BAE and others using a modified RJ."
The aircraft is tasked by the science teams involved in the research - Met Office and University, to be pedantic (on pprune, never!) BAE are the aircraft owners, they do not define the science programme.
>>>"The UK contribution of an RJ run by BAE and others looks a bit light weight to me...."
It most certainly is not!!The aircraft tasking is continously under review so that it is used to best effect and, as you can see from the FAAM website, it is currently devoted to the 'VOLCANO' tasking. There is intense activity 'behind the scenes' to ensure aircraft and instrument availability and to optimise the aircraft operation.
G-LUXE was the prototype 146-100 and was flown then as G-SHHH (whisperjet). The airframe was then modified to become the 146-300 test airframe, now G-LUXE, before the conversion to type 146-301, the unique aircraft you see now. I believe that means it was never an RJ.
Jim
The European airline industry needs real time real measurements in order to ensure we can keep flying for as long as is safely possible.
However, they may also show that the models vastly underestimate the extent and density of the ash cloud, resulting in far more closure of airspace. I assume you would welcome this, or are you simply asking for the answer you want rather than the truth?
Last edited by peter we; 9th May 2010 at 13:58.
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Sorry boys and girls.
Who has the latest info sitting in front of them? The Met office/ATC! Not me in my aircraft.
As for the operator? Well do you really want Willy, MOL and co, deciding if it’s safe or not? Are you MAD!
Who has the latest info sitting in front of them? The Met office/ATC! Not me in my aircraft.
As for the operator? Well do you really want Willy, MOL and co, deciding if it’s safe or not? Are you MAD!
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Small Met Charts
Sepp asked: Does anyone else find it frustrating that, given the potential insurance problems, we have either to:
a) trust our luck to rediculously small charts (Met Office*)...
Don't forget that these charts are only forecasts of ash distribution, derived from meteorological models. Their accuracy is no better than the weather forecast.
Larger charts would only give the impression of greater accuracy.
a) trust our luck to rediculously small charts (Met Office*)...
Don't forget that these charts are only forecasts of ash distribution, derived from meteorological models. Their accuracy is no better than the weather forecast.
Larger charts would only give the impression of greater accuracy.
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Stupid and dangerous to those on the ground. In my company 'safety first' isn't just a catchword or soundbite phrase, we live, breathe and practice it.
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No, I don't believe BDiONU flies at all. According to his profile he works for NATS, therefore I guess he is trying to justify the initial over-reaction of closing the airspace completely.