Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Thanks Jim
Jim, clarification much appreciated.
Yesterday was a difficult day for the industry made worse by an inconsistent approach from national bodies. My own employers opinion was:
"As I suggested in my email yesterday, today has proved to be a very
testing day due to the dynamic nature of the volcanic ash situation.
This has been made more difficult because of the inconsistency in the
approach and interpretation being applied by different national
authorities and air traffic units in determining the level of
contamination and corresponding status of airspace."
That is a small part of what was a very good e mail. I am not trying to start an EU squabble but given the stakes involved they need to get their act together.
It would also appear that some flights did operate in areas considered by others to be no fly zones. Would be interesting to see if the engines suffered any ill effects.
Bigpants
Yesterday was a difficult day for the industry made worse by an inconsistent approach from national bodies. My own employers opinion was:
"As I suggested in my email yesterday, today has proved to be a very
testing day due to the dynamic nature of the volcanic ash situation.
This has been made more difficult because of the inconsistency in the
approach and interpretation being applied by different national
authorities and air traffic units in determining the level of
contamination and corresponding status of airspace."
That is a small part of what was a very good e mail. I am not trying to start an EU squabble but given the stakes involved they need to get their act together.
It would also appear that some flights did operate in areas considered by others to be no fly zones. Would be interesting to see if the engines suffered any ill effects.
Bigpants
@ Niallo
Apologies for the belated reply...
Yep, true - I ought to have included that caveat.
Apologies for the belated reply...
Yep, true - I ought to have included that caveat.
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modelled ash concentration charts
Hi,
went to work yesterday, and had downloaded the modelled ash concentration charts,
especially those valid 12:00z on 09May. They were produced 00z.
They did not show any black over Germany, at least the surface..fl200 chart did not.
No problem, no talk of closures.
Then, the 06z chart was produced, and it showed a large black dot over France, near Paris,
and a few smaller dots over southern Germany in the 12:00z forecast.
Result: airspace closed in the afternoon.
Questions: Does the model behave rationally, or does it contain flukes, or is it inaccurate
at times, or is there a new volcano north of Paris that injects new ash (hope not) ?
Best, Klaus
went to work yesterday, and had downloaded the modelled ash concentration charts,
especially those valid 12:00z on 09May. They were produced 00z.
They did not show any black over Germany, at least the surface..fl200 chart did not.
No problem, no talk of closures.
Then, the 06z chart was produced, and it showed a large black dot over France, near Paris,
and a few smaller dots over southern Germany in the 12:00z forecast.
Result: airspace closed in the afternoon.
Questions: Does the model behave rationally, or does it contain flukes, or is it inaccurate
at times, or is there a new volcano north of Paris that injects new ash (hope not) ?
Best, Klaus
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Ifalpa have linked to the most current guidance they can offer from the two main airframers. If you feel yourself to be well briefed where you work there will still be those elsewhere who might find the following helpful:
Airbus
http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...h%20Advice.pdf
Boeing
http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...h%20Advice.pdf
Rob
Airbus
http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...h%20Advice.pdf
Boeing
http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...h%20Advice.pdf
Rob
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Fresh Quakes at Volcano
Lots of recent quakes at the volcano 
.
This links shows them hour by hour.
Earthquakes - Mýrdalsjökull
or static shot here
. This links shows them hour by hour.
Earthquakes - Mýrdalsjökull
or static shot here
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ash in ryanair engines
yesterday, Ryanair totally denied volcanic ash was reason for cancelled flights at BHD - despite passengers being told (by Servisair & BMI staff) this was the reason.
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The worrying thing is that ASH was found in the engines in the first place... even after flying around in unrestricted airspace.
Many questions are left unanswered, I heard a webcast from director of operations from the IAA this afternoon. He referred to the ongoing engine inspections taking place in the UK by a major european carrier, and constantly this data is being reviewed along with data from other carriers, with an aim to raise the 2000 limit. With talk like this...I refer to my earlier posts a number of days ago, its human nature to push the boat out, and after a number of carriers reporting ash in the engines in Belfast...if I were to be honest, I don't like the way this is going....
Many questions are left unanswered, I heard a webcast from director of operations from the IAA this afternoon. He referred to the ongoing engine inspections taking place in the UK by a major european carrier, and constantly this data is being reviewed along with data from other carriers, with an aim to raise the 2000 limit. With talk like this...I refer to my earlier posts a number of days ago, its human nature to push the boat out, and after a number of carriers reporting ash in the engines in Belfast...if I were to be honest, I don't like the way this is going....
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'HEAR HEAR' Highlow I absolutely agree. Whilst I appreciate the financial and general disruption implications, we must be absolutely sure we are not compromising safety and just adapting legislation to allow flights to continue whatever.
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article on italian newspaper "Il Messaggero", today.
Interview with Enzo Boschi, head of the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology (INGV).
It's translated by google translator, not perfect...
Scientists: "unjustified block"
Boschi: block expected with 200 milligrams per cubic meter, but there were only 10.
CNR (National Research Council) complains: "data has been ignored"
"Those of Earlinet as well as our (data) have been used only partially.
The President dell'lngv: "Our country among the first to organizzaisi to address these possibilities. But has little power when you take the operational decisions "
The station Isac-Cnr of Monte Cimone monitored in real time: in some moments there was more sand from the Saharan than dust from the volcano.
Flights suspended, and passengers into chaos billions of euro went up in smoke. Yet, from the pure scientific analysis of the facts that the ash cloud seems never to have reached Italy. Many alarm only for a handful of dust in the North Italy. "Our projections - said Enzo Boschi, president of the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology (INGV) - tell us that yesterday would come in a Mediterranean dust concentrations less than 10 micrograms per cubic meter. As provided for Eurocontrol, the alert is launched only when the dust rnicrogramrni than 200 per cubic meter.
This has not stopped our country to stop flights to almost half a day. Our aircraft have remained grounded despite scientific data speak of a risk almost zero.
"It 'really injustified such a stance' Boschi criticizes. "We can not continue to paralyze the country because there is no appropriate organization for such emergencies."
Yes, because if there is one thing that the Icelandic volcano has taught us is that we are not ready to face this kind of phenomenon on the international level. This time is our country that is ahead, but decision-making power too low to rely on their skills.
"Until April 15 - Boschi says - there was a substantial lack of interest in these problems. Only Italy and Iceland were preparing for years for this type of emergency. Our country did so with little funding from the Ministry of University and Research. The others were watching. "
Still, we had to adjust to the lines and recommendations coming from those that on handling volcanic eruption have spent too little. And 'in fact Ingv grueling work of scientists who have the continuous and careful monitoring of the activity of Italian volcanoes and beyond. These researchers to perform chemical analysis of dust in Iceland to see if the cloud is dangerous to health and the environment "We have all the tools capabilities - add Woods - to put on a service monitoring volcanic activity 24 Hour 24.
In addition to INGV, the CNR has also made available its excellent service to the emergency caused by the volcano in Iceland. The stations of the European Earlinet coordinated by the Institute of Methodologies for Environmental Analysis of Power Cnr provided information on the ash cloud in real time, from Sweden to Romania, thanks to optical radar beams shooting into the air to analyze market composition. The station Isac-Cnr of Monte Cimone provided data on the amount of ash in the cloud, verifying that over Italy it was even lower than that at certain times of Saharan sand is brought by the scirocco. However, these data were not used or used only minimally, from authorities to the authorization of flights, said Luciano Maiani, president of the CNR. They preferred to rely on models from the Centre for European control of volcanic dust, the Vaac. Their predictions - Woods says - are based on outdated models instead compared with those on which we work in Italy.
According to our scientists, wrong this time was the European organization.
"We must restore the list of priorities - ending Woods - and spend the extra money in areas such as volcanology, which may have an important impact on our lives. We are ready to lend a hand. "
Investing now means savings later.
"With 100 million - estimated Maiani - you could finance a European observational network more complete with frontier technologies for 10 years, in an emergency, would identify possible air corridors to minimize safety stop flights. The investment required is considerably less than the losses suffered by airlines and would benefit all European citizens. "
Flights canceled: 22,000 flights daily travel Europe - 1000 those canceled yesterday for the ash cloud
Interview with Enzo Boschi, head of the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology (INGV).
It's translated by google translator, not perfect...
Scientists: "unjustified block"
Boschi: block expected with 200 milligrams per cubic meter, but there were only 10.
CNR (National Research Council) complains: "data has been ignored"
"Those of Earlinet as well as our (data) have been used only partially.
The President dell'lngv: "Our country among the first to organizzaisi to address these possibilities. But has little power when you take the operational decisions "
The station Isac-Cnr of Monte Cimone monitored in real time: in some moments there was more sand from the Saharan than dust from the volcano.
Flights suspended, and passengers into chaos billions of euro went up in smoke. Yet, from the pure scientific analysis of the facts that the ash cloud seems never to have reached Italy. Many alarm only for a handful of dust in the North Italy. "Our projections - said Enzo Boschi, president of the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology (INGV) - tell us that yesterday would come in a Mediterranean dust concentrations less than 10 micrograms per cubic meter. As provided for Eurocontrol, the alert is launched only when the dust rnicrogramrni than 200 per cubic meter.
This has not stopped our country to stop flights to almost half a day. Our aircraft have remained grounded despite scientific data speak of a risk almost zero.
"It 'really injustified such a stance' Boschi criticizes. "We can not continue to paralyze the country because there is no appropriate organization for such emergencies."
Yes, because if there is one thing that the Icelandic volcano has taught us is that we are not ready to face this kind of phenomenon on the international level. This time is our country that is ahead, but decision-making power too low to rely on their skills.
"Until April 15 - Boschi says - there was a substantial lack of interest in these problems. Only Italy and Iceland were preparing for years for this type of emergency. Our country did so with little funding from the Ministry of University and Research. The others were watching. "
Still, we had to adjust to the lines and recommendations coming from those that on handling volcanic eruption have spent too little. And 'in fact Ingv grueling work of scientists who have the continuous and careful monitoring of the activity of Italian volcanoes and beyond. These researchers to perform chemical analysis of dust in Iceland to see if the cloud is dangerous to health and the environment "We have all the tools capabilities - add Woods - to put on a service monitoring volcanic activity 24 Hour 24.
In addition to INGV, the CNR has also made available its excellent service to the emergency caused by the volcano in Iceland. The stations of the European Earlinet coordinated by the Institute of Methodologies for Environmental Analysis of Power Cnr provided information on the ash cloud in real time, from Sweden to Romania, thanks to optical radar beams shooting into the air to analyze market composition. The station Isac-Cnr of Monte Cimone provided data on the amount of ash in the cloud, verifying that over Italy it was even lower than that at certain times of Saharan sand is brought by the scirocco. However, these data were not used or used only minimally, from authorities to the authorization of flights, said Luciano Maiani, president of the CNR. They preferred to rely on models from the Centre for European control of volcanic dust, the Vaac. Their predictions - Woods says - are based on outdated models instead compared with those on which we work in Italy.
According to our scientists, wrong this time was the European organization.
"We must restore the list of priorities - ending Woods - and spend the extra money in areas such as volcanology, which may have an important impact on our lives. We are ready to lend a hand. "
Investing now means savings later.
"With 100 million - estimated Maiani - you could finance a European observational network more complete with frontier technologies for 10 years, in an emergency, would identify possible air corridors to minimize safety stop flights. The investment required is considerably less than the losses suffered by airlines and would benefit all European citizens. "
Flights canceled: 22,000 flights daily travel Europe - 1000 those canceled yesterday for the ash cloud
Psychophysiological entity
How effective is the inertial separation system on PT6's and their derivatives? i.e. Is the particulate matter too fine to separate?
A Runyonesque Character
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Sleepypilot: Please could you give a link to the original Messaggero article? Given that Italy is the one country in Europe (apart from Iceland) that understands volcanoes, that's very interesting stuff.
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The SSK
direct link
Il Messaggero articolo
if it doesnt work try the newspapers link
Il Messaggero - Home Page - sezione HOME
go to SFOGLIA IL GIORNALE (flip through the pages)
you have to register, quick & easy
once registered it's on page 11
direct link
Il Messaggero articolo
if it doesnt work try the newspapers link
Il Messaggero - Home Page - sezione HOME
go to SFOGLIA IL GIORNALE (flip through the pages)
you have to register, quick & easy
once registered it's on page 11
Guest
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Given that Italy is the one country in Europe (apart from Iceland) that understands volcanoes
I don't know about that, SSK, I live an hour's drive from the Garrotxa with its 70 dormant volcanoes, dormant yes but a strong smell of sulphur from many of them.......the city of Olot is built over the region and there are three volcano cones pushing up through the city itself. Historically there has been a major erruption in the Garrotxa roughly every 10,000 years - the last one was 13,000 years ago, so any time now......
I don't know about that, SSK, I live an hour's drive from the Garrotxa with its 70 dormant volcanoes, dormant yes but a strong smell of sulphur from many of them.......the city of Olot is built over the region and there are three volcano cones pushing up through the city itself. Historically there has been a major erruption in the Garrotxa roughly every 10,000 years - the last one was 13,000 years ago, so any time now......
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OFSO,
LOL... South-Central France has a lot of dormant volcanoes too....
I don't think many people expect them to erupt in the next 10,000 years, either.
Only Iceland and Italy have active volcanoes on their territory, and it has become all too clear that a bit more funding of their basic research would now have paid handsome dividends.
But I think you got that point, too !
Did they close Gerona?
CJ
LOL... South-Central France has a lot of dormant volcanoes too....
I don't think many people expect them to erupt in the next 10,000 years, either.
Only Iceland and Italy have active volcanoes on their territory, and it has become all too clear that a bit more funding of their basic research would now have paid handsome dividends.
But I think you got that point, too !
Did they close Gerona?
CJ
ChristiaanJ
Hmmm, what did you have in mind
Only Iceland and Italy have active volcanoes on their territory, and it has become all too clear that a bit more funding of their basic research would now have paid handsome dividends.
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I think many contributors are missing the point. Comparing volcanoes around the Pacific ring of fire or those in Italy has little value.
This article:
BBC News - Could another Icelandic volcano erupt soon?
quotes: Professor Gudmundsson says there are "no signs yet" of an impending (Katla) eruption. "Our eyes are not glued to Katla, we are thinking about the eruption that is happening now." But Dr Goodenough adds that "substantial amounts of magma" are rising underneath both volcanoes. Katla is Eyjafjallajokull's more active neighbour, and scientists believe that there may be a link between the two volcanoes.
And what makes Eyjafjallajokull and Katla different? Well the Katla "volcano's ice sheet is 600-700m thick", and it's this that makes the difference. Magma that erupts through ice has a very different composition to that of other volcanic activity. Being cooled rapidly the silica produces a form of glass ash that melts well below the temperatures found in most modern engines. My understanding is that when it then solidifies it agregates, not dissimilar to water vapour producing snow. So who wants to try flying when the next time you go to max thrust, one, two or three engines say "No" and die. A bit scary with a full fuel load and lots of SLF on board.
PS. The greatest danger to aviation safety is complacency. Modern engines have become too dependable, to the extent that they are often taken for granted, until they fail!! Boeings and Airbuses don't glide very well.
This article:
BBC News - Could another Icelandic volcano erupt soon?
quotes: Professor Gudmundsson says there are "no signs yet" of an impending (Katla) eruption. "Our eyes are not glued to Katla, we are thinking about the eruption that is happening now." But Dr Goodenough adds that "substantial amounts of magma" are rising underneath both volcanoes. Katla is Eyjafjallajokull's more active neighbour, and scientists believe that there may be a link between the two volcanoes.
And what makes Eyjafjallajokull and Katla different? Well the Katla "volcano's ice sheet is 600-700m thick", and it's this that makes the difference. Magma that erupts through ice has a very different composition to that of other volcanic activity. Being cooled rapidly the silica produces a form of glass ash that melts well below the temperatures found in most modern engines. My understanding is that when it then solidifies it agregates, not dissimilar to water vapour producing snow. So who wants to try flying when the next time you go to max thrust, one, two or three engines say "No" and die. A bit scary with a full fuel load and lots of SLF on board.
PS. The greatest danger to aviation safety is complacency. Modern engines have become too dependable, to the extent that they are often taken for granted, until they fail!! Boeings and Airbuses don't glide very well.
Last edited by alisoncc; 10th May 2010 at 23:47. Reason: Added PS.