Greedy BA pilots want more dosh
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"SYSTEMS MONITOR" is becoming the buzz word for pilots. Flight Engineers are one endangered species slowly following the path of Navigators and Radio Operators. Technology will soon overtake the role of airline pilots. And the higher the crew cost, the higher the Tech pressure to replace us!
In order to comprehend this trend one has to adjust the conventional thought processes, including the premises that: Large jets cannot safely be flown without highly skilled pilots and that passengers would never board a jet without two pilots at the controls.
CAT-IIIC Autoland and any other autoflight profile requires more systems programing knowhow than aerodynamics/aviator knowledge.
Twenty years from now computer and nano technologies will have more than doubled in sophistication. Our traditional "hands-on" role as pilots will be diminished if not altogether eliminated and replaced by Systems Monitors. Believe it.
If you have any doubts about the future decline of our profession, catch up on the pilotless aircraft the military has been perfecting over the past few years: Start with the "Global Hawk." It's a UAV about the size of a small bizjet with a single turbofan that can fly across the pond, linger over Europe six hours and return without refueling. And guess what? In one branch of the U.S. military the ground based remote "system operators" are all non pilots.
I'm an airline pilot, but I'm a realist too.
Cheers.
In order to comprehend this trend one has to adjust the conventional thought processes, including the premises that: Large jets cannot safely be flown without highly skilled pilots and that passengers would never board a jet without two pilots at the controls.
CAT-IIIC Autoland and any other autoflight profile requires more systems programing knowhow than aerodynamics/aviator knowledge.
Twenty years from now computer and nano technologies will have more than doubled in sophistication. Our traditional "hands-on" role as pilots will be diminished if not altogether eliminated and replaced by Systems Monitors. Believe it.
If you have any doubts about the future decline of our profession, catch up on the pilotless aircraft the military has been perfecting over the past few years: Start with the "Global Hawk." It's a UAV about the size of a small bizjet with a single turbofan that can fly across the pond, linger over Europe six hours and return without refueling. And guess what? In one branch of the U.S. military the ground based remote "system operators" are all non pilots.
I'm an airline pilot, but I'm a realist too.
Cheers.
Pontius - I am standing applauding in my own living room. Spot on.
As for the BA Cadet costs - its a non-too-commercial secret in the industry that the inital OATS deal was for £42,000 per person. Most schools have lowered charges in the last 5 years as well... But remember there is a JOC course and line training plus extra training sectors for Cadets on that figure.
Everyone I have spoken to is rooting for the BA guys big time. What you set today filters down to the rest of us tomorrow. I was suprised to find that I am significantly better off as a EGSS low cost FO than I would be as a EGKK BA 3 year FO in terms of monthly net take home pay when we compared payslips a week or so back...
Take no prisoners guys,
WWW
As for the BA Cadet costs - its a non-too-commercial secret in the industry that the inital OATS deal was for £42,000 per person. Most schools have lowered charges in the last 5 years as well... But remember there is a JOC course and line training plus extra training sectors for Cadets on that figure.
Everyone I have spoken to is rooting for the BA guys big time. What you set today filters down to the rest of us tomorrow. I was suprised to find that I am significantly better off as a EGSS low cost FO than I would be as a EGKK BA 3 year FO in terms of monthly net take home pay when we compared payslips a week or so back...
Take no prisoners guys,
WWW
Jolly Green Giant
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Your point is very well made Glueball. People will no doubt scoff at your comments and say that this scenario will never happen, but of course it more than likely will. As to when the first fully loaded unmanned airplane will take off, who knows, but as you have pointed out, the tecnology is not just in the near future, it's here and now.
For the present though, the pilots are here and they must fight what they believe they are worth.
For the present though, the pilots are here and they must fight what they believe they are worth.
N. Fantastic, Pontius and others. You described the profession so well: but it is one in which we are often married to our airline. Due to pension/health insurance (US) requirements, after a few years (without being independently wealthy) most of us can't go through revolving doors at different companies like many in upper/middle mgmt: we are committed (bound, as in tied to a tree) to our companies, with no golden parachutes.
Our unions have often done a lousy job of explaining the realities of our jobs to the ignorant laymen. Others (even former DC-8 line pilots, no nicknames mentioned) insisting on appearing to be ignorant.
If my company decides to experiment with the more productive linear route system as Southwest does, in contrast to the inefficient hub and spoke system, they certainly won't ask for my advice on this. Most US airlines chose to stick with this very inefficient concept.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Our unions have often done a lousy job of explaining the realities of our jobs to the ignorant laymen. Others (even former DC-8 line pilots, no nicknames mentioned) insisting on appearing to be ignorant.
If my company decides to experiment with the more productive linear route system as Southwest does, in contrast to the inefficient hub and spoke system, they certainly won't ask for my advice on this. Most US airlines chose to stick with this very inefficient concept.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Personally, the more that BA pilots get the better and for this one reason:
the more money they get the more tax they pay!
The more tax they pay the more money our government has available to provide more doctors, nurses, teachers classrooms etc, etc. And who provides the funds in the fist place? Here's the best bit!
Not the British taxpayer, not the general public but the flying public!
All those people who clog up the roads driving to the airport; the same ones who sit in aeroplanes which create noise and increase pollution, etc, etc.....
I'm all for as much money as possible being extracted from the air travelling public being given to the pilots who can then give it to HMG!
Go for it chaps!
the more money they get the more tax they pay!
The more tax they pay the more money our government has available to provide more doctors, nurses, teachers classrooms etc, etc. And who provides the funds in the fist place? Here's the best bit!
Not the British taxpayer, not the general public but the flying public!
All those people who clog up the roads driving to the airport; the same ones who sit in aeroplanes which create noise and increase pollution, etc, etc.....
I'm all for as much money as possible being extracted from the air travelling public being given to the pilots who can then give it to HMG!
Go for it chaps!
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To hot wings(on page 2),
I also think that we have decent management at SAS, however, make no mistake, we made them give us the payraise. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to!!! On the other hand, now that the negotiations are over, I am, as always, prepared to work hard and help the company since it seemed that they negotiated in good faith(at least towards the end).
It's a two way street.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ramrise ]
I also think that we have decent management at SAS, however, make no mistake, we made them give us the payraise. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to!!! On the other hand, now that the negotiations are over, I am, as always, prepared to work hard and help the company since it seemed that they negotiated in good faith(at least towards the end).
It's a two way street.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ramrise ]
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Pontious
I did like your post, but you obviously have never been on my a/c when it's gone tech.
It always seems to be the tech crew that leg it first.
Now I appreciate that the pilot group will deck the whole operation but what will happen when the engineering group start a fight; will they get support from you or will, as happened in the past, will the pilot's bend over backwards to keep the operation going??
Interestingly the engineers were the only group to have negotiated an agreement in the proposed equity stake, tied in to the last pay deal, something that the pilot's I understand now want a bigger slice of.
Interesting times
I did like your post, but you obviously have never been on my a/c when it's gone tech.
It always seems to be the tech crew that leg it first.
Now I appreciate that the pilot group will deck the whole operation but what will happen when the engineering group start a fight; will they get support from you or will, as happened in the past, will the pilot's bend over backwards to keep the operation going??
Interestingly the engineers were the only group to have negotiated an agreement in the proposed equity stake, tied in to the last pay deal, something that the pilot's I understand now want a bigger slice of.
Interesting times
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Pontius, well said mate.
This is not a gripe, but it isn't just BA that do all that 'outstanding' Customer Service stuff. Try working for a charter airline, where you have to do all that every day ! Incidently I was positioning back home with BA the other day and found the poor old F/O wandering through the cabin explaining to am American lady passenger that because of the hour slot delay she was going to miss her onward connection to the states
(Bloody obvious I know, the F/O knew it, all the pax knew it). Personally, I and all the passengers close by found this extreemely excrutiating and highly embarassing for him. We were all wonering why ? 
In contrast, in my arline the captain would have explained to all the pax at the same time over the PA, whilst I would be on the mobile to our operations or Brussels flow control direct, in order to re-file a different route. The cabin crew would address other passenger concearns directly.
I just sat back and thought, well at least I am getting paid 17,000 more than this poor sod and I will get my command 10 years earlier.
Anyway sorry to dribble on. Good luck in the pay negotiations, you lot deserve it.
This is not a gripe, but it isn't just BA that do all that 'outstanding' Customer Service stuff. Try working for a charter airline, where you have to do all that every day ! Incidently I was positioning back home with BA the other day and found the poor old F/O wandering through the cabin explaining to am American lady passenger that because of the hour slot delay she was going to miss her onward connection to the states
(Bloody obvious I know, the F/O knew it, all the pax knew it). Personally, I and all the passengers close by found this extreemely excrutiating and highly embarassing for him. We were all wonering why ? In contrast, in my arline the captain would have explained to all the pax at the same time over the PA, whilst I would be on the mobile to our operations or Brussels flow control direct, in order to re-file a different route. The cabin crew would address other passenger concearns directly.
I just sat back and thought, well at least I am getting paid 17,000 more than this poor sod and I will get my command 10 years earlier.
Anyway sorry to dribble on. Good luck in the pay negotiations, you lot deserve it.
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I would just like to wish the BA guys all the best in their forthcoming pay negotiations and ask them to bear in mind one thing.
Eddington started the rot at Cathay in the mid 90's and the guy screwing the pilots in HKG at the moment is Tony Tyler. TT is believed to be on his way to BA in the none too distant future so you had better make these negotiations count.
Another thought, the share options that Rod was given the other day, could they be an incentive to screw the pilot body for whatever he can?
Food for thought.
Eddington started the rot at Cathay in the mid 90's and the guy screwing the pilots in HKG at the moment is Tony Tyler. TT is believed to be on his way to BA in the none too distant future so you had better make these negotiations count.
Another thought, the share options that Rod was given the other day, could they be an incentive to screw the pilot body for whatever he can?
Food for thought.
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just a reply to largejet on P4 who said
"Secondly, since people keep drawing parallels between IT and pilots how about this one. When there was a shortage of IT people what did BA do to attract them? Offered them great T & C's The old supply and demand thing. "
As far as I'm aware, BA IT people have never been offered "great T & C's" - certainly no better than any other BA employee. When exactly was this offer? Also, BA IT people would like to compare apples and apples (as Pontius says), but know that IT people can earn a hell of a lot more outside of an airline if they chose to leave.
Many chose to stay because they enjoy the work and the benefits, not the pay!
As I've said before, I think the pilots deserve to earn a hell of a lot of money, and good luck for any negotiations. Having said that, they need to bear in mind that many sections of the airline feel the same way about their own departments and aren't always successful. Everyone is on the same team at the end of the day.
"Secondly, since people keep drawing parallels between IT and pilots how about this one. When there was a shortage of IT people what did BA do to attract them? Offered them great T & C's The old supply and demand thing. "
As far as I'm aware, BA IT people have never been offered "great T & C's" - certainly no better than any other BA employee. When exactly was this offer? Also, BA IT people would like to compare apples and apples (as Pontius says), but know that IT people can earn a hell of a lot more outside of an airline if they chose to leave.
Many chose to stay because they enjoy the work and the benefits, not the pay!
As I've said before, I think the pilots deserve to earn a hell of a lot of money, and good luck for any negotiations. Having said that, they need to bear in mind that many sections of the airline feel the same way about their own departments and aren't always successful. Everyone is on the same team at the end of the day.
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LTN MAN .YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL PILOT SO STICK TO PASS SERVICES.UK PILOTS ARE GENERALLY UNDERVALUED BY UK COMPANIES AND SHOULD BE PROPERLY REWARDED FOR THEIR EXPERTISE.SO LTN MAN STICK YOUR NOSE ELSEWHERE. 
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Hello Peeps, sorry for the lack of replies but it's that old wolf, door and keeping the former from the latter syndrome.
Well, I feel quite embarrassed by this 'praise' for my post....maybe I should go into management. Okay, only kidding.
But to address a couple of points:
Gas Path,
I assume form your message you're an engineer (a much appreciated 'race'in my mind). I would never deliberately try and foil another group's attempts to improve their pay and conditions and I hope I made it clear when I said, that whatever you guys can get, then good luck to you all. What I also said, though, is that this is a fight for the pilots and all else smacks of herring rouge. I recognise that our terms and conditions can and do affect other departments within the airline, but we are trying to get away from this whole, stupid, corporate rate thing. BA would much rather we didn't because that would mean paying us according to our worth outside the airline and that would mean a pay rise...shock, horror. This is ALL we are going for; our Market Rate.
You comment that it is the tech crew that are first to leg it off a u/s aircraft. That may be the case sometimes, but it may be that they've been given another flight to crew or have to go and prep the next aircraft etc. I'm not, for one moment, saying we are all perfect all the time, but we do try and our customer service far exceeds the levels put about by 'button pushing' accusers such as the Guvnor. We all recognise the hugely important role we have to play in the arena of making dosh for the company and most of us try very hard to do so. I hate people talking about the 'Big Picture' stuff, but maybe when those pilots do rush off there is a very good reason...and, believe me, it's not normally related to going home.
Invalid Delete,
Been there and done that, so I do know what you're talking about. Some of us do have experiences from outside BA, but I know that spoils the 'Nigel' image, so I won't dwell on it.
I think the Old Lady story is quite a good example of customer service. Yeah, all the pax knew there was a delay and most of them could figure out the implications of that delay, but could the ol' dear? I think treating a passenger as an individual and going to explain to her what will happen when she arrives at LHR/LGW and who to speak to in Flight Connections an excellent response to a delay and far from embarassing (I've been in the cabin too many times and survived the near lynchings to get too upset by some smiling people).
I have to admit (and this is without knowing whether the Captain was otherwise disposed) I would have done it myself rather than sending my RHS colleague. I'm sure there are good reasons for the Captain not doing so.
And finally (as they say). It's good to see that you would have been proactive in trying to improve your slot, but do you not think the guys were trying to do likewise? We don't have the aircraft mobile phones (a Godsend when we got them in my charter outfit) but we do have the luxury of a 'proper' operations base at most of our destinations. We do the same things as you do with Flow Control, but via the company freq..and you know how much better those people in ops can deal with those situations (still doesn't beat the bottle of whisky to ATC in Rhodes though. ).
Alright, I've rambled on for long enough, again. At the end of the day, we are not being greedy, we just want similar renumeration to the equivalent airlines in Europe, who are doing exactly the same job. It truly is a shame that we are shackled with seniority numbers et al, because deregulated movement around Europe could certainly force BA to sit up and take note. I, for one, though am not going to allow the arrogant managers in BA to think they have me trapped. I'll do everything I can to help BALPA negotiate a decent deal and if they don't, then I'm off to warmer climes...with better Em..rates.
Toodle oo,
Pontius
Well, I feel quite embarrassed by this 'praise' for my post....maybe I should go into management. Okay, only kidding.
But to address a couple of points:
Gas Path,
I assume form your message you're an engineer (a much appreciated 'race'in my mind). I would never deliberately try and foil another group's attempts to improve their pay and conditions and I hope I made it clear when I said, that whatever you guys can get, then good luck to you all. What I also said, though, is that this is a fight for the pilots and all else smacks of herring rouge. I recognise that our terms and conditions can and do affect other departments within the airline, but we are trying to get away from this whole, stupid, corporate rate thing. BA would much rather we didn't because that would mean paying us according to our worth outside the airline and that would mean a pay rise...shock, horror. This is ALL we are going for; our Market Rate.
You comment that it is the tech crew that are first to leg it off a u/s aircraft. That may be the case sometimes, but it may be that they've been given another flight to crew or have to go and prep the next aircraft etc. I'm not, for one moment, saying we are all perfect all the time, but we do try and our customer service far exceeds the levels put about by 'button pushing' accusers such as the Guvnor. We all recognise the hugely important role we have to play in the arena of making dosh for the company and most of us try very hard to do so. I hate people talking about the 'Big Picture' stuff, but maybe when those pilots do rush off there is a very good reason...and, believe me, it's not normally related to going home.
Invalid Delete,
Been there and done that, so I do know what you're talking about. Some of us do have experiences from outside BA, but I know that spoils the 'Nigel' image, so I won't dwell on it.
I think the Old Lady story is quite a good example of customer service. Yeah, all the pax knew there was a delay and most of them could figure out the implications of that delay, but could the ol' dear? I think treating a passenger as an individual and going to explain to her what will happen when she arrives at LHR/LGW and who to speak to in Flight Connections an excellent response to a delay and far from embarassing (I've been in the cabin too many times and survived the near lynchings to get too upset by some smiling people).
I have to admit (and this is without knowing whether the Captain was otherwise disposed) I would have done it myself rather than sending my RHS colleague. I'm sure there are good reasons for the Captain not doing so.
And finally (as they say). It's good to see that you would have been proactive in trying to improve your slot, but do you not think the guys were trying to do likewise? We don't have the aircraft mobile phones (a Godsend when we got them in my charter outfit) but we do have the luxury of a 'proper' operations base at most of our destinations. We do the same things as you do with Flow Control, but via the company freq..and you know how much better those people in ops can deal with those situations (still doesn't beat the bottle of whisky to ATC in Rhodes though.
).Alright, I've rambled on for long enough, again. At the end of the day, we are not being greedy, we just want similar renumeration to the equivalent airlines in Europe, who are doing exactly the same job. It truly is a shame that we are shackled with seniority numbers et al, because deregulated movement around Europe could certainly force BA to sit up and take note. I, for one, though am not going to allow the arrogant managers in BA to think they have me trapped. I'll do everything I can to help BALPA negotiate a decent deal and if they don't, then I'm off to warmer climes...with better Em..rates.
Toodle oo,
Pontius
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Guvnor,
When the alarm clock goes off, perhaps you can go back to being a postman.
Your fish hooks still catch the occasional new poster but I will still lurk at the back of this pond and know what you really are...
A Hypocrite and a Fool.
I said it before and I'll say it again. The only man I know who referred to himself as 'The Guvnor' was Paul Ince. His IQ was comparable to yours.
Goodbye!
When the alarm clock goes off, perhaps you can go back to being a postman.
Your fish hooks still catch the occasional new poster but I will still lurk at the back of this pond and know what you really are...
A Hypocrite and a Fool.
I said it before and I'll say it again. The only man I know who referred to himself as 'The Guvnor' was Paul Ince. His IQ was comparable to yours.
Goodbye!
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It is quite extraordinary how many folks on this thread are saying "..good luck, go for it, it filters down...", but on other threads the CX guys are getting lambasted with criticism and pilots saying they want to take their jobs. ( I'm for both sets of pilots IN BOTH AIRLINES, btw ).
The 2 disputes are very much related; I guarantee that Red Oddington is rooting for and communicating with his former colleagues in CX management, both carriers are in OneWorld. The CX UK payscales are supposed to be related to the BA ones. If the CX guys win their dispute, the results will also benefit the other UK drivers. (Pull factors would rise, tempting ship-jumping to CX, after the dust settles ).
I agree with the above commentators who say that the UK pilots are falling behind in pay. Too true. So support your CX colleagues, 'cos they're fighting in no small part for a lot of you as well. If they win, many carriers would have to reconsider their packages, especially those employing expats, and those with multi-tiered payscales.
My three cents worth...(inflation...)
The 2 disputes are very much related; I guarantee that Red Oddington is rooting for and communicating with his former colleagues in CX management, both carriers are in OneWorld. The CX UK payscales are supposed to be related to the BA ones. If the CX guys win their dispute, the results will also benefit the other UK drivers. (Pull factors would rise, tempting ship-jumping to CX, after the dust settles ).
I agree with the above commentators who say that the UK pilots are falling behind in pay. Too true. So support your CX colleagues, 'cos they're fighting in no small part for a lot of you as well. If they win, many carriers would have to reconsider their packages, especially those employing expats, and those with multi-tiered payscales.
My three cents worth...(inflation...)
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Well observed Rraamjet. Sadly any mention of the CX dispute brings responses from either pilots suffering from envy or management pretending to be pilots. I am certain that the same thing will happen once the pay negotiations at BA turn nasty. As with CX, BA pilots will quietly retire to their own private forum and leave the imposters and the ignorant to comment in public.
