Greedy BA pilots want more dosh
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Isn't it remarkable that when company directors vote themselves big salary increases, bonuses etc, it is necessary to attract the best talent. When the lower orders ask for above inflation increases they are greedy, irreponsible and much more.
Go for it BA pilots.
Go for it BA pilots.
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Well said bigmac and Sir Scruggs. Roderick Eddington is right now grinning about the 165,000 share options (at £3.21 per share) that the rest of the board voted him last week!
I would like to say that Ms A Jameson deserves a B+ for her article. As far as journos writing about pilot's pay is concerned, she did a pretty good job.
The situation at BA is quite simple. Despite what the BA spokeswoman says, we are having a hard time recruiting experienced pilots and now, even retaining pilots.
Most of us who fly for BA have shares in the airline and we are very keen for the compay to do well. During the Gulf war we took a 5% pay cut to help out the company and we have done our best to restructure and implement the Business Efficiency Program. We have seen our productivity and hours flown increase yet our P60s and days off decrease. At our last pay deal we were sold out by Balpa (1.?% increase), who were still trying to work in partnership with BA, yet BA managed to find the money to give CSDs a 5.6% pay rise. We are now being subjected to more and more disciplinaries and our sickness is even being closely monitored to make sure that we work as close to 900 hours per year as possible.
Flight Ops can find the money to offer starting pay of £85,000 to IT managers and give them date of birth (rather than date of joining) seniority for Staff Travel, yet a 20 year BA Captain is on a salary of £76,854pa (not £110K) and is responsible for 100s of lives, $220,000,000 worth of company assets (a 747-400) and $1 billion of liability.
Rod Eddington is 100% correct when he complains that BA is suffering from a silo mentality. Each department is only concerned about its own costs and not the overall cost to the airline. As a result of paying managers bonuses for handling their own budget, the big picture has been lost.
Many of us feel that enough is enough. We no longer feel charitable for the greater good. Why should we work harder for less only to see the savings thrown away by other departments? At least the City sees our value and importance: "Pilots have a lot of power. They can stop an airline overnight and they can wipe out a year's profits in weeks...".
When you look at BA's turnover, it is amazing that our profits are so poor. Yet many of BA's pilots now earn less than pilots at Ryanair and Easy. Much of BA's core work has been contracted out, yet our employee numbers keep growing.
At Waterside (company HQ) people show up for work at 10.30am and then head home at 2.30pm. By 4pm the place is deserted. Go and see it for yourselves if you don't believe me! Sadly BA's modern management practices are such that if you only require 4-5 hours to do your work then fair enough. Well I say put in a full 8 hour day and lets reduce the number of time wasters and leeches who are bleeding this company dry.
Yes, sadly there is a storm on BA's horizon. And it is of their own doing. BA's pilots are a dedicated and hard working group but we have had enough of being taken advantage of. An extra 10% would only go about 1/3 of the way towards getting us back on side.
I would like to say that Ms A Jameson deserves a B+ for her article. As far as journos writing about pilot's pay is concerned, she did a pretty good job.
The situation at BA is quite simple. Despite what the BA spokeswoman says, we are having a hard time recruiting experienced pilots and now, even retaining pilots.
Most of us who fly for BA have shares in the airline and we are very keen for the compay to do well. During the Gulf war we took a 5% pay cut to help out the company and we have done our best to restructure and implement the Business Efficiency Program. We have seen our productivity and hours flown increase yet our P60s and days off decrease. At our last pay deal we were sold out by Balpa (1.?% increase), who were still trying to work in partnership with BA, yet BA managed to find the money to give CSDs a 5.6% pay rise. We are now being subjected to more and more disciplinaries and our sickness is even being closely monitored to make sure that we work as close to 900 hours per year as possible.
Flight Ops can find the money to offer starting pay of £85,000 to IT managers and give them date of birth (rather than date of joining) seniority for Staff Travel, yet a 20 year BA Captain is on a salary of £76,854pa (not £110K) and is responsible for 100s of lives, $220,000,000 worth of company assets (a 747-400) and $1 billion of liability.
Rod Eddington is 100% correct when he complains that BA is suffering from a silo mentality. Each department is only concerned about its own costs and not the overall cost to the airline. As a result of paying managers bonuses for handling their own budget, the big picture has been lost.
Many of us feel that enough is enough. We no longer feel charitable for the greater good. Why should we work harder for less only to see the savings thrown away by other departments? At least the City sees our value and importance: "Pilots have a lot of power. They can stop an airline overnight and they can wipe out a year's profits in weeks...".
When you look at BA's turnover, it is amazing that our profits are so poor. Yet many of BA's pilots now earn less than pilots at Ryanair and Easy. Much of BA's core work has been contracted out, yet our employee numbers keep growing.
At Waterside (company HQ) people show up for work at 10.30am and then head home at 2.30pm. By 4pm the place is deserted. Go and see it for yourselves if you don't believe me! Sadly BA's modern management practices are such that if you only require 4-5 hours to do your work then fair enough. Well I say put in a full 8 hour day and lets reduce the number of time wasters and leeches who are bleeding this company dry.
Yes, sadly there is a storm on BA's horizon. And it is of their own doing. BA's pilots are a dedicated and hard working group but we have had enough of being taken advantage of. An extra 10% would only go about 1/3 of the way towards getting us back on side.
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Gentlemen. We here at CX are undergoing our greatest trial ever. It is being made far more difficult thanks to the efforts of one Tony Tyler. He is apparantly joining BA at the end of August. This man makes Joseph Goebbels look like a rank amateur. He is a liar out of all proportion. He is guilty of demonising the pilots of CX in the local HK press. This man is ruthless, and will stop at nothing to discredit the aircrew in any dispute or negotiations. There is no lie too big, no tactic too dirty that he won't employ in the pursuit of victory. Make sure that you have the BEST public relations firm employed before your pay negotiations. You WILL need it! This man gives new meaning to the word 'loathsome', and you MUST be ready for the coming battle. Best wishes from CX. 
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The Resistance - I had heard rumours regarding TTs arrival at BA. I'm certain that he will get along well with our new Chief Pilot. 
It looks as though the executioners have been put in place!
IT is losing 100 contract workers and BA is also after Cabin Services to cut £18,000,000 in costs (easily done but that's another topic
). I suspect that BA will try to pre-empt our contract negotiations with threats of more cuts and increased productivity, etc. This will cancel out our demands for >10% and we will end up with the usual RPI deal. Or so they would like to think. How much would a strike cost BA?
If only we had management like at SAS who have awarded their pilots with 19% over 2 years, whilst avoiding a damaging war of words leading to possible industrial action.
[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]
It looks as though the executioners have been put in place!IT is losing 100 contract workers and BA is also after Cabin Services to cut £18,000,000 in costs (easily done but that's another topic
). I suspect that BA will try to pre-empt our contract negotiations with threats of more cuts and increased productivity, etc. This will cancel out our demands for >10% and we will end up with the usual RPI deal. Or so they would like to think. How much would a strike cost BA?If only we had management like at SAS who have awarded their pilots with 19% over 2 years, whilst avoiding a damaging war of words leading to possible industrial action.
[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]
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=Just thought I would play devils advocate.
Maybe BA needs to trim costs so they can pay pilots more. I hope so because I hope to join them one day... as a pilot..before anybody asks.
Maybe BA needs to trim costs so they can pay pilots more. I hope so because I hope to join them one day... as a pilot..before anybody asks.
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Hot Wings - personally, I agree with you regarding the huge pay awards made to certain airline CEOs. As I said earlier, it's a team effort - and that applies from the top down. Given that the buck should stop with the CEO, I'd say that they should do what Herb Kelleher has done on occasions and have nil pay and profit share. Now that's putting your money where your mouth is!
I'm currently in Atlanta, and had a very interesting discussion this evening in a restaurant near the airport with several DL pilots about their recent pay award; their working conditions and their external business interests.
In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged. Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA. FR crews are, apparently, amongst the best paid crews today. I have no problems with that at all - they work damn hard for it! However, there are other carriers where that isn't the case - especially on long haul flights. How much time, in each flight, is actually spent hands-on flying the aircraft? Not a lot. Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.
Like it or not, we are in an economic downturn/recession and that means that all costs need to be cut to the bone.
And for those of you out there that think that they can blackmail their employer into caving in to excessive pay demands, I have two words:
Aerolineas Argentinas.
There, the pilots thought that they could force the management into paying them more; so they struck. A couple of days later, the company was out of cash - so it folded. Those pilots went from having a job (albeit one that was not, in their opinion, paying enough) to having no job at all. Rather more seriously, none of their colleagues have jobs, either.
Do you really want that on your conscience?
I'm currently in Atlanta, and had a very interesting discussion this evening in a restaurant near the airport with several DL pilots about their recent pay award; their working conditions and their external business interests.
In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged. Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA. FR crews are, apparently, amongst the best paid crews today. I have no problems with that at all - they work damn hard for it! However, there are other carriers where that isn't the case - especially on long haul flights. How much time, in each flight, is actually spent hands-on flying the aircraft? Not a lot. Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.
Like it or not, we are in an economic downturn/recession and that means that all costs need to be cut to the bone.
And for those of you out there that think that they can blackmail their employer into caving in to excessive pay demands, I have two words:
Aerolineas Argentinas.
There, the pilots thought that they could force the management into paying them more; so they struck. A couple of days later, the company was out of cash - so it folded. Those pilots went from having a job (albeit one that was not, in their opinion, paying enough) to having no job at all. Rather more seriously, none of their colleagues have jobs, either.
Do you really want that on your conscience?
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The Guvnor,
You really have excelled yourself this time-
"Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid. "
What about the cleaners, if they did'nt turn up on a turnaround we could possible depart overweight and end up as a smoldering wreck at the end of the runway.
But then again who would find themselves in court, not the cleaners.
I've always given you some slack for some of your previous idiotic posts but this really is crass stupidity.
You really have excelled yourself this time-
"Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid. "
What about the cleaners, if they did'nt turn up on a turnaround we could possible depart overweight and end up as a smoldering wreck at the end of the runway.
But then again who would find themselves in court, not the cleaners.
I've always given you some slack for some of your previous idiotic posts but this really is crass stupidity.
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The Guvnor crept from beneath his stone and scribbled in the sand:
<<In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged.>>
Quite right.
<<Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA.>>
Not, however, correct. By law here in the U.K., Pilots and Flight Engineers are only allowed to fly a maximum 900 hours a year. This is so that we don't become too tired and fatigued and fly into mountains etc.
In B.A., some pilots have had to be taken off service because they've reached that 900 hour limit. I would suggest that this shows we *are* productive, and more so than the majority of other airlines.
<<Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. >>
Not naive. Tell me, are you actually in the flying business, or are you just someone with an axe to grind and an overwhelming compulsion to show the rest of the world that you have no knowledge of aviation?
<<The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.>>
Ah, right. Delusional as well. Tell you what, next time you are on an aircraft and it has the misfortune to lose an engine, why don't you suggest to the crew that a stewardess pop up to the flight deck and take control of the situation?
<<In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged.>>
Quite right.
<<Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA.>>
Not, however, correct. By law here in the U.K., Pilots and Flight Engineers are only allowed to fly a maximum 900 hours a year. This is so that we don't become too tired and fatigued and fly into mountains etc.
In B.A., some pilots have had to be taken off service because they've reached that 900 hour limit. I would suggest that this shows we *are* productive, and more so than the majority of other airlines.
<<Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. >>
Not naive. Tell me, are you actually in the flying business, or are you just someone with an axe to grind and an overwhelming compulsion to show the rest of the world that you have no knowledge of aviation?
<<The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.>>
Ah, right. Delusional as well. Tell you what, next time you are on an aircraft and it has the misfortune to lose an engine, why don't you suggest to the crew that a stewardess pop up to the flight deck and take control of the situation?
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Oh, come on TwoTun - at least read my post properly. 
I didn't say anything at all about hours, I said rotations which means that they are getting higher utilisation out of their aircraft and crews - which is what makes them profitable and other people not.
In what way, exactly, would you (or wooof) disagree with my statement that pilots are largely systems monitors?
And Wooof - how far do you think you'd legally be able to fly a loaded pax aircraft without cabin crew or ATC?
Cleaners are optional (though a dirty aircraft tends to put off the pax). ATC and cabin crew aren't.
Unless you disagree with this?
I didn't say anything at all about hours, I said rotations which means that they are getting higher utilisation out of their aircraft and crews - which is what makes them profitable and other people not.In what way, exactly, would you (or wooof) disagree with my statement that pilots are largely systems monitors?
And Wooof - how far do you think you'd legally be able to fly a loaded pax aircraft without cabin crew or ATC?
Cleaners are optional (though a dirty aircraft tends to put off the pax). ATC and cabin crew aren't.
Unless you disagree with this?
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Guvnor,
I think comparisons between BA and Aerolineas Argentinas are a bit off the mark. BA will not collapse after two days of striking but I think the company are probably sensible enough to realise that if they don't make a good offer (they are able to afford considerably better than RPI), then they can forget about making a profit for the rest of the year!
I think comparisons between BA and Aerolineas Argentinas are a bit off the mark. BA will not collapse after two days of striking but I think the company are probably sensible enough to realise that if they don't make a good offer (they are able to afford considerably better than RPI), then they can forget about making a profit for the rest of the year!
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Airforcenone - all points agreed with! However, my points were as follows:
1) We're in an economic down-turn/recession therefore companies need to cut, not add, costs (something that BA could do with its excessive management structure, for example) - and which it's already doing by cutting back on contract personnel; and
2) There's no justification for flight deck to think that they should be given a higher % increase than anyone else at BA - that's just divisive. When it comes down to the crunch as I've said before, it's a team effort and if any part of that team withdraws their involvement then the whole team suffers.
Make hay whilst the sun's shining - not whilst it's p!ss!ing with rain!
1) We're in an economic down-turn/recession therefore companies need to cut, not add, costs (something that BA could do with its excessive management structure, for example) - and which it's already doing by cutting back on contract personnel; and
2) There's no justification for flight deck to think that they should be given a higher % increase than anyone else at BA - that's just divisive. When it comes down to the crunch as I've said before, it's a team effort and if any part of that team withdraws their involvement then the whole team suffers.
Make hay whilst the sun's shining - not whilst it's p!ss!ing with rain!
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Guvnor,
As 'hands-on groundstaff' I find your 'part of a team' comments laudable and agree to most of your points, however I realise that the only groups that can really cause major problems are both Flight, Cabin Crew and to a lesser extent the Engineers. This view is widely acknowledged throughout the Airline, but makes groundstaff feel vulnerable. It would be great to be treated as equals when it comes to pay awards or benefits etc etc, but I'm realistic and accept that it'll never be. The first casualty from any conflict is the truth, the next piece of collateral shrapnel normally takes out the helpless groundstaff.
As 'hands-on groundstaff' I find your 'part of a team' comments laudable and agree to most of your points, however I realise that the only groups that can really cause major problems are both Flight, Cabin Crew and to a lesser extent the Engineers. This view is widely acknowledged throughout the Airline, but makes groundstaff feel vulnerable. It would be great to be treated as equals when it comes to pay awards or benefits etc etc, but I'm realistic and accept that it'll never be. The first casualty from any conflict is the truth, the next piece of collateral shrapnel normally takes out the helpless groundstaff.
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Guvnor
Please read Sir Algernon Scruggs last post about relative values and stop bleating on about it.
It is evident that you don't like pilots but I have a theory. You actually realise our full worth and you resent it. On the one hand we are probably (together with engineers) the single most decisive factor where safety is concerned; which is paramount to running a marketable airline. Secondly, the fact that experienced pilots are difficult to come by forces you to make your job offer attractive; and that costs you money. You enjoy the freedoms of capitalism but you would withold it from others.
I think that any respect you ever had in this website depletes with your every post, every time.
Magplug
I think you'll find that the single largest expense in an airline is the fuel bill!
Please read Sir Algernon Scruggs last post about relative values and stop bleating on about it.
It is evident that you don't like pilots but I have a theory. You actually realise our full worth and you resent it. On the one hand we are probably (together with engineers) the single most decisive factor where safety is concerned; which is paramount to running a marketable airline. Secondly, the fact that experienced pilots are difficult to come by forces you to make your job offer attractive; and that costs you money. You enjoy the freedoms of capitalism but you would withold it from others.
I think that any respect you ever had in this website depletes with your every post, every time.
Magplug
I think you'll find that the single largest expense in an airline is the fuel bill!
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Guvnor,
Some of your comments on this thread may come back to haunt you when you finally get your tinpot airline off the ground. You already seem to have defined yourself as a management dinosaur that nobody likes. Consequently there wont be too many naiive systems monitors knocking on your office door for a job.
Norman Stanley,
Couple of things about your referances to BA cadets. Firstly, luck isn't a factor, cadets are offered a place because they are selected to have the abilities that BA are looking for. The only people who disagree with that who I have come across are a few bitter individuals who were rejected. Secondly, if you are fortunate to have sponsorship, it doesn't automatically mean you have to become a corporate kiss a$$. I was a cadet pilot and I, nor any other cadet pilot I know are inefficient to the tune of 21 grand. I do my job well, and I think I am underpaid for what I do. Whimpering? No, I just understand my value, and I am worth more than what I am getting now.
Some of your comments on this thread may come back to haunt you when you finally get your tinpot airline off the ground. You already seem to have defined yourself as a management dinosaur that nobody likes. Consequently there wont be too many naiive systems monitors knocking on your office door for a job.
Norman Stanley,
Couple of things about your referances to BA cadets. Firstly, luck isn't a factor, cadets are offered a place because they are selected to have the abilities that BA are looking for. The only people who disagree with that who I have come across are a few bitter individuals who were rejected. Secondly, if you are fortunate to have sponsorship, it doesn't automatically mean you have to become a corporate kiss a$$. I was a cadet pilot and I, nor any other cadet pilot I know are inefficient to the tune of 21 grand. I do my job well, and I think I am underpaid for what I do. Whimpering? No, I just understand my value, and I am worth more than what I am getting now.
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ear2ground - as a customer's first point of contact, I happen to think that ground staff are actually very important people. The way that the check in staff and CSAs treat the pax will be their initial - and save some radical problems or outstanding service on board - will form the pax's overall impression of the airline. The buck starts with you guys!
Secret Squirrel - wrong. I don't like anyone - whether they be pilots, engineers, ground staff or baggage handlers - thinking that they are more important than the rest of the team; and demanding to play by their own rules.
As I have said several times on this and the BA thread there's a world of difference between different pay scales (and yes, pilots will always be paid more than engineers or cabin crew) and what we're discussing here which is substantially higher pay demands than those for the rest of the team.
Understand where I'm coming from now?
Whats_it_doing_now 300+ applications and counting, thank you for asking.
Perhaps you chaps should do what I did and get yourself a copy of Nuts!, the story of Herb Kelleher and Southwest Airlines. Another good one is Gordon Bethune's autobiography.
Now, that's how you run an airline!
Secret Squirrel - wrong. I don't like anyone - whether they be pilots, engineers, ground staff or baggage handlers - thinking that they are more important than the rest of the team; and demanding to play by their own rules.
As I have said several times on this and the BA thread there's a world of difference between different pay scales (and yes, pilots will always be paid more than engineers or cabin crew) and what we're discussing here which is substantially higher pay demands than those for the rest of the team.
Understand where I'm coming from now?
Whats_it_doing_now 300+ applications and counting, thank you for asking.
Perhaps you chaps should do what I did and get yourself a copy of Nuts!, the story of Herb Kelleher and Southwest Airlines. Another good one is Gordon Bethune's autobiography.
Now, that's how you run an airline!
I just could not resist exposing some ignorance (denial) of pilot productivity to the bright light of a Tennessee (US) day. I'm sure BA flies some short legs as we do, and many flights must be in very busy airspace, not to mention accents to deal with. As for the handy phrase ('sound byte') "systems monitors"-very superficial, and as for long haul vs short haul-anyone who has flown the short legs in the older two-pilot planes, especially in a B-737, DC-9 or F-100 (just like in the smaller regional aircraft) etc understands which pilots are the most productive. In terms of how many legs are flown (yep, I know, pushing 250-400 seats thru bumpy skies is also quite productive), the workload is larger as aircraft size/leg-length decreases. This is often not well-known to those who work outside a two-person cockpit (or flew mostly as part of a three-person crew).
We who do this often sweaty job flying the short legs with no rest periods truly understand who the busiest pilots are, when multiple checklists, airspeed, altitude and heading vectors... must be complied with, catching blocked/cut-out radio calls with new clearances and guesses (yes) as to how adequate the arrival fuel will be while often worsening weather are all intermixed in a rushed operation. Sometimes five or six of these short legs are equal to less than eight total block hours of flying-but result in a very long day. Many times more fatiguing than a typical daytime long-haul flight.
Even long-haul flying in itself is known to be fatiguing, not including circadian body clock problems...
Some ignorance of these topics among laymen is normal, but such implied ignorance from a former DC-8 (or other such long-haul aircraft) pilot etc. can only consist of denial in order to attempt to support an arguement which rests on the flimsiest foundation. The pilots who fly the line DO the job with their hands and can't be swayed by such 'Kuhscheisse'. Use it as fertilizer on your flowers.
Good luck BA pilots. To Lufthansa's Vereinigung Cockpit, sehr gut gemacht... weiter so!
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
We who do this often sweaty job flying the short legs with no rest periods truly understand who the busiest pilots are, when multiple checklists, airspeed, altitude and heading vectors... must be complied with, catching blocked/cut-out radio calls with new clearances and guesses (yes) as to how adequate the arrival fuel will be while often worsening weather are all intermixed in a rushed operation. Sometimes five or six of these short legs are equal to less than eight total block hours of flying-but result in a very long day. Many times more fatiguing than a typical daytime long-haul flight.
Even long-haul flying in itself is known to be fatiguing, not including circadian body clock problems...
Some ignorance of these topics among laymen is normal, but such implied ignorance from a former DC-8 (or other such long-haul aircraft) pilot etc. can only consist of denial in order to attempt to support an arguement which rests on the flimsiest foundation. The pilots who fly the line DO the job with their hands and can't be swayed by such 'Kuhscheisse'. Use it as fertilizer on your flowers.
Good luck BA pilots. To Lufthansa's Vereinigung Cockpit, sehr gut gemacht... weiter so!
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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People,like GVNR, picture pilots sitting in comfy seats eating ,drinking and checking out the best view in the house.
They never see the same pilot at the end of a long-haul flight awake when others are asleep, or trying to sleep when the rest are awake.
They have no idea what it is like to blat around Europe in Winter, with poor weather, air traffic (and delays) for multiple sectors.
They do not realise that in no other profession is one's career examined so exhaustively. 2 medicals, 2 base checks, and a line check each year which can be FAILED!
Yet,if one of these people happened to be onboard an aircraft which suffered an emergency and the crew brought the flight to a safe conclusion, I wonder if their attitude towards pilots would change?
I somehow doubt it! They would say "That is what they are paid to do". AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT!
They never see the same pilot at the end of a long-haul flight awake when others are asleep, or trying to sleep when the rest are awake.
They have no idea what it is like to blat around Europe in Winter, with poor weather, air traffic (and delays) for multiple sectors.
They do not realise that in no other profession is one's career examined so exhaustively. 2 medicals, 2 base checks, and a line check each year which can be FAILED!
Yet,if one of these people happened to be onboard an aircraft which suffered an emergency and the crew brought the flight to a safe conclusion, I wonder if their attitude towards pilots would change?
I somehow doubt it! They would say "That is what they are paid to do". AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT!
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Fellow Aviators
I am new to this site and have had the great pleasure reading what my fellow colleagues have to say. Quite enlightening at times. Until that is I happened upon the idiotic comments of the “Guv”. He/She seems to be well known, I on the other hand have no idea who this person is. Let me add that I have no desire to meet such an A%$.
Frere’s please do not humour his pathetic comments and arguments with justification of our worth. Pass on your comments to your unions and let these matters be discussed in the correct forums.
To Mr/Miss/Mrs Guv
If indeed you have 300 applicants may I be so humble as to suggest you occupy your time with reading into these alleged CV’s and not contaminate an otherwise fruitful thread with your divisive drivel.
I am new to this site and have had the great pleasure reading what my fellow colleagues have to say. Quite enlightening at times. Until that is I happened upon the idiotic comments of the “Guv”. He/She seems to be well known, I on the other hand have no idea who this person is. Let me add that I have no desire to meet such an A%$.
Frere’s please do not humour his pathetic comments and arguments with justification of our worth. Pass on your comments to your unions and let these matters be discussed in the correct forums.
To Mr/Miss/Mrs Guv
If indeed you have 300 applicants may I be so humble as to suggest you occupy your time with reading into these alleged CV’s and not contaminate an otherwise fruitful thread with your divisive drivel.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: England
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The Guvnor spouted forth:
<<Oh, come on TwoTun - at least read my post properly. I didn't say anything at all about hours, I said rotations which means that they are getting higher utilisation out of their aircraft and crews - which is what makes them profitable and other people not.>>
To remind about a previous post of yours, you said:
<<Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA.>>
See - you did say something about hours. Don't berate me for having a go at you when you can't remember what you put in previous posts, old chap.
You also went on to say:
<<In what way, exactly, would you (or wooof) disagree with my statement that pilots are largely systems monitors? >>
How about the fact that I've been flying since 1973, and I don't consider pilots to be "Systems Monitors"?
<<Oh, come on TwoTun - at least read my post properly. I didn't say anything at all about hours, I said rotations which means that they are getting higher utilisation out of their aircraft and crews - which is what makes them profitable and other people not.>>
To remind about a previous post of yours, you said:
<<Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA.>>
See - you did say something about hours. Don't berate me for having a go at you when you can't remember what you put in previous posts, old chap.
You also went on to say:
<<In what way, exactly, would you (or wooof) disagree with my statement that pilots are largely systems monitors? >>
How about the fact that I've been flying since 1973, and I don't consider pilots to be "Systems Monitors"?