RYANAIR FIRE PILOT UNION CHAIRMAN
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Why didn't he just say nothing and let the A/C depart to STN without the positioning captain?
I can't understand why anybody would 'demand' a seat in the cabin, I've flown in a Ryanair cabin a few times in the past and its definitely not an experience I'd like to repeat, even for £5!
I can't understand why anybody would 'demand' a seat in the cabin, I've flown in a Ryanair cabin a few times in the past and its definitely not an experience I'd like to repeat, even for £5!
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Flame, exactly how stupid are you?
You posted:
for the record your two points were:
Now, your first point.......Capt Duffy "adopting the position that he did". If you read my post above you will discover that the only position he adopted was to state that 5 people could not position on 4 seats (one cabin + 3 J/S). Do you disagree???? He did NOT refuse to occupy a jumpseat. Can I make it any clearer for you?? It was not a case of
The only reason a revenue pax would be offloaded was to allow the full positioning crew of 5 (Capt, co-pilot and 3 CCMs) to travel. This has been laid out in great detail for you...whats your problem...is it the math...or are you blinded by the sunlight emanating from the rear end of MOL.
Noe for your second point.....kindly reread Crossfeedclosed's excellent post above. Ponder the bit about disconnecting the autopilot. Now your second point was:
Do you understand that a stunt like that is DANGEROUS and COMPROMISES SAFETY???
If you don't then you have nothing useful to contribute. If you do, then why do you post such drivel as:
If you STILL do not consider your points answered perhaps you are indeed irredeemably stupid. Your incomprehension beats me anyhow.
You posted:
And, as for the 2 points raised, not one person has answered either of my points
As far as the two recent dismissals are concerned...I consider myself an even minded person and cannot understand a Captain wanting a revenue pax taken off a flight in order that he can travel approx 40 minutes to his destination in comfort. Maybe someone can explain to me a good reason for the Capt. adopting the position that he did. With regard to the second incident..how is a Capt to have proper charge of his aircraft if the person in the right hand seat refuses to obey a direction, that neither involved danger or compromised safety..?
a Captain wanting a revenue pax taken off a flight in order that he can travel approx 40 minutes to his destination in comfort.
Noe for your second point.....kindly reread Crossfeedclosed's excellent post above. Ponder the bit about disconnecting the autopilot. Now your second point was:
how is a Capt to have proper charge of his aircraft if the person in the right hand seat refuses to obey a direction, that neither involved danger or compromised safety..?
If you don't then you have nothing useful to contribute. If you do, then why do you post such drivel as:
And, as for the 2 points raised, not one person has answered either of my points
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Hey that's an easy one to answer...
If you're Irish, who else are you going to work for? there ARE only 2 players.
If your British, it is a great stepping stone. (Is there anyone left at RYR who is British?)
If your European, you make up the bulk of the RYR pilot workforce in STN, and you get better pay for this abuse in Sterling, than working in the Eastern Block for beans. Whilst they can get a work permit, they will come. They don't speak English too well though...
If your from Downunder, again, there IS no work back home unless your Grandfather worked for Quantas.
THATS WHY !!
Market demand...
But the good news is, there isn't many Type Rated Crews left. And the ones that do work at RYR are getting organised......
If you're Irish, who else are you going to work for? there ARE only 2 players.
If your British, it is a great stepping stone. (Is there anyone left at RYR who is British?)
If your European, you make up the bulk of the RYR pilot workforce in STN, and you get better pay for this abuse in Sterling, than working in the Eastern Block for beans. Whilst they can get a work permit, they will come. They don't speak English too well though...
If your from Downunder, again, there IS no work back home unless your Grandfather worked for Quantas.
THATS WHY !!
Market demand...
But the good news is, there isn't many Type Rated Crews left. And the ones that do work at RYR are getting organised......
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Stand by your man;
Many many thanks for the insults and glorious comments, you must be having a really bad day. Now listen up brightspark..!!, If I pay MOL one penny to fly from DUB to anywhere..then I have more right to a seat than any Capt. The bottom line is, whether you like it or not, is that people like me pay everyones wages in Ryanair and if some Capt, with dillusions of grandeur thinks otherwise , he is sadly mistaken.
Obviously from you comments, you have no problem with FR going out of business (and it seems you would love it to happen), I am sure that paying £500 / £600 for a return economy ticket between DUb & LHR is no problem to you at all, but to ordinary folk like me, who must dig deep into their own pockets to afford air travel its a totally different matter.
Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know
I have no doubt that another dose of abuse will come from you shortly...I sure hope that you are not employed in a flying capacity seeing that you have no control over your emotions at all
By all means, tell me I am wrong or incorrect, but hey..try and keep it civil, please
Many many thanks for the insults and glorious comments, you must be having a really bad day. Now listen up brightspark..!!, If I pay MOL one penny to fly from DUB to anywhere..then I have more right to a seat than any Capt. The bottom line is, whether you like it or not, is that people like me pay everyones wages in Ryanair and if some Capt, with dillusions of grandeur thinks otherwise , he is sadly mistaken.
Obviously from you comments, you have no problem with FR going out of business (and it seems you would love it to happen), I am sure that paying £500 / £600 for a return economy ticket between DUb & LHR is no problem to you at all, but to ordinary folk like me, who must dig deep into their own pockets to afford air travel its a totally different matter.
Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know
I have no doubt that another dose of abuse will come from you shortly...I sure hope that you are not employed in a flying capacity seeing that you have no control over your emotions at all
By all means, tell me I am wrong or incorrect, but hey..try and keep it civil, please
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Flame, you must realise that your comments such as "The bottom line is, whether you like it or not, is that people like me pay everyones wages in Ryanair and if some Capt, with dillusions of grandeur thinks otherwise , he is sadly mistaken." will only provoke more vitriol because you are showing a total lack of understanding of the situation.
I will attept to clarify it to you in laymans terms because you are obviously not familiar with all the terminology and other aspects of what is involved in a crew positioning for duty.
There is a crew, which consists of one Captain, one First Officer and three Cabin Crew. All these people are required to in order for their flight to be able to operate. Remove any one of them and the flight is grounded until a replacement can be found, which is never an easy task, especially if you are undercrewed as most airlines are these days.
This Crew have been rostered to operate a flight out of Stansted. The crew are obviously not starting from Stansted but from Dublin. This may be because they are based in Dublin or because they all ended up there after their last operational flight. It doesn't really matter. Due to the inefficiencies of a company with not enough crews to go around they have to position crews.
The problem for companies positioning crews before a duty is that the positioning time has to be included in the maximum duty time they are allwoed to operate if it is immediately before the scheduled duty. Therefore, the positioning has to be as short as possible otherwise it is a waste of time if by the time they get to their aircraft they don't have enough duty hours left to operate all the sectors they are scheduled for.
I hope you are still with me on this. The flight that the Crew are scheduled to fly out on to position to Stansted is almost full. There are two jump seats available on the flight deck and one spare cabin crew seat available in the cabin. Only one passenger seat is empty on the flight. Still with me? That equates to only four seats which are empty on the whole aircraft. Now, there are five members of this crew who have been rostered to position on this flight so that they can get to Stansted and operate another scheduled flight on behalf of Ryanair, full of fare paying passengers like yourself. Unfortunately, someone has made a boo boo here. An extra seat has been sold and so there are not enough seats available for ALL the positioning crew.
The Captain of this positioning crew informs his operations people that there is a seat too few for his crew to position to Stansted to operate the other flight. What are they, operations, going to do about it? It is no use positioning only four of them as it takes a minimum of five crew members to operate the flight out of Stansted so unless they can all go they might as well stay where they are. Without five of them, two flight deck and three cabin crew the Stansted flight they are scheduled to operate is going nowhere and no doubt the cost to Ryanair of delaying or cancelling a flight is going to be very high.
Still there? In this case, operations advised the people in charge of boarding to remove one of the passengers so that the whole crew could position to Stansted and operate their flight and so generate a lot of money for Ryanair. Normally passengers are offloaded for whatever operational reason based on their fare status. For example, if you were on a free or reduced fare ticket you would be near the top of the list of people asked to get off whereas if you had purchased a full fare ticket you would be well down that list and fairly secure in the knowledge that if only one person has to be offloaded then it isn't going to be you.
So, for operational reasons, one passenger was offloaded and therefore there are now enough seats to accomodate the positioning crew. Two on the flight deck, one cabin crew jump seat and two passenger seats. The Captain, using his privelege of rank requests one of the passenger seats together with another member of the crew.
Now this is where it obviously becomes complicated for some of you. As with any chinese whisper and no doubt a management twist on the facts it first appears that the Captain, who is a union organiser and therefore the antichrist as far as Ryanair management are concerned has offloaded a passenger so that he may travel in some tyoe of comfort instead of using a jump seat. Well, that would suit the management and by the sound of it, Mr O'leary used the opportunity to get rid of this thorn in his side, quite obviously without all the facts before him.
I certainly hope that this Captain takes the whole issue to tribunal and gets reinstated and compensated for this injustice. The penalty against mr O'leary should be punitive because of the 18th century style of man management used.
So Flame, this Captain did not have delusions of grandeur, in fact he asked his operations people to solve the problem so that the company could operate a scheduled flight and thus increase revenue for the company. The operations people obviously realised that the inconvenience to one passenger and the possible loss of revenue from that one passenger was far outweighed by the need to operate another flight full of revenue passengers at all costs. Had you paid only one penny to Mr O'leary then there would have been a highly likely chance that you would have been that unfortunate passenger that had to be offloaded.
Your quote Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know" only goes to show how easily some of you are duped by the press releases by that same management who have very little understanding of the concept of loyalty and the fostering of goodwill from its employees.
The Captain concerned was fired purely because of his union work and the excuse used is nothing but a red herring. I am sure you don't treat your staff or are treated by your bosses in such an obviously underhanded manner.
You obviously enjoy the cheap fares that Ryanair have brought to the marketplace. I would suggest you get all your facts right before you spout off about things you clearly know nothing about. Personally I am suprised that the rest of the Ryanair flight crews have not yet take some sort of industrial action to get the fired Captain re-instated. You may yet be left with no alternative but to pay the whole hog airfare if the Ryanair pilots ever get their act together and show how expensive it can be for management to screw around with peoples lives like this.
I will attept to clarify it to you in laymans terms because you are obviously not familiar with all the terminology and other aspects of what is involved in a crew positioning for duty.
There is a crew, which consists of one Captain, one First Officer and three Cabin Crew. All these people are required to in order for their flight to be able to operate. Remove any one of them and the flight is grounded until a replacement can be found, which is never an easy task, especially if you are undercrewed as most airlines are these days.
This Crew have been rostered to operate a flight out of Stansted. The crew are obviously not starting from Stansted but from Dublin. This may be because they are based in Dublin or because they all ended up there after their last operational flight. It doesn't really matter. Due to the inefficiencies of a company with not enough crews to go around they have to position crews.
The problem for companies positioning crews before a duty is that the positioning time has to be included in the maximum duty time they are allwoed to operate if it is immediately before the scheduled duty. Therefore, the positioning has to be as short as possible otherwise it is a waste of time if by the time they get to their aircraft they don't have enough duty hours left to operate all the sectors they are scheduled for.
I hope you are still with me on this. The flight that the Crew are scheduled to fly out on to position to Stansted is almost full. There are two jump seats available on the flight deck and one spare cabin crew seat available in the cabin. Only one passenger seat is empty on the flight. Still with me? That equates to only four seats which are empty on the whole aircraft. Now, there are five members of this crew who have been rostered to position on this flight so that they can get to Stansted and operate another scheduled flight on behalf of Ryanair, full of fare paying passengers like yourself. Unfortunately, someone has made a boo boo here. An extra seat has been sold and so there are not enough seats available for ALL the positioning crew.
The Captain of this positioning crew informs his operations people that there is a seat too few for his crew to position to Stansted to operate the other flight. What are they, operations, going to do about it? It is no use positioning only four of them as it takes a minimum of five crew members to operate the flight out of Stansted so unless they can all go they might as well stay where they are. Without five of them, two flight deck and three cabin crew the Stansted flight they are scheduled to operate is going nowhere and no doubt the cost to Ryanair of delaying or cancelling a flight is going to be very high.
Still there? In this case, operations advised the people in charge of boarding to remove one of the passengers so that the whole crew could position to Stansted and operate their flight and so generate a lot of money for Ryanair. Normally passengers are offloaded for whatever operational reason based on their fare status. For example, if you were on a free or reduced fare ticket you would be near the top of the list of people asked to get off whereas if you had purchased a full fare ticket you would be well down that list and fairly secure in the knowledge that if only one person has to be offloaded then it isn't going to be you.
So, for operational reasons, one passenger was offloaded and therefore there are now enough seats to accomodate the positioning crew. Two on the flight deck, one cabin crew jump seat and two passenger seats. The Captain, using his privelege of rank requests one of the passenger seats together with another member of the crew.
Now this is where it obviously becomes complicated for some of you. As with any chinese whisper and no doubt a management twist on the facts it first appears that the Captain, who is a union organiser and therefore the antichrist as far as Ryanair management are concerned has offloaded a passenger so that he may travel in some tyoe of comfort instead of using a jump seat. Well, that would suit the management and by the sound of it, Mr O'leary used the opportunity to get rid of this thorn in his side, quite obviously without all the facts before him.
I certainly hope that this Captain takes the whole issue to tribunal and gets reinstated and compensated for this injustice. The penalty against mr O'leary should be punitive because of the 18th century style of man management used.
So Flame, this Captain did not have delusions of grandeur, in fact he asked his operations people to solve the problem so that the company could operate a scheduled flight and thus increase revenue for the company. The operations people obviously realised that the inconvenience to one passenger and the possible loss of revenue from that one passenger was far outweighed by the need to operate another flight full of revenue passengers at all costs. Had you paid only one penny to Mr O'leary then there would have been a highly likely chance that you would have been that unfortunate passenger that had to be offloaded.
Your quote Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know" only goes to show how easily some of you are duped by the press releases by that same management who have very little understanding of the concept of loyalty and the fostering of goodwill from its employees.
The Captain concerned was fired purely because of his union work and the excuse used is nothing but a red herring. I am sure you don't treat your staff or are treated by your bosses in such an obviously underhanded manner.
You obviously enjoy the cheap fares that Ryanair have brought to the marketplace. I would suggest you get all your facts right before you spout off about things you clearly know nothing about. Personally I am suprised that the rest of the Ryanair flight crews have not yet take some sort of industrial action to get the fired Captain re-instated. You may yet be left with no alternative but to pay the whole hog airfare if the Ryanair pilots ever get their act together and show how expensive it can be for management to screw around with peoples lives like this.
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Hear! Hear! Chimbu chuckles,
Management wanted him out, so it is quite likely, that had he kept quiet and allowed just four members of his positioning crew to board (in accordance with the available seats), they would have sacked him anyway for not acting professionally in bringing the problem to the attention of the operations staff whilst there was still time to do anything about it!
If they were out to get him... Well, rocks and hard places spring to mind.
I was talking to a mate of mine's wife yesterday who works for the Ryans at Prestwick and apparently, the pilots all got wined and dined at the company's expense to brainwash them into phoning the CAC and registering their opposition to the UK pilots being a single bargaining unit. If the management don't want it so badly, it must be good for the pilots.
And don't you just love it... Flame getting flamed!
Management wanted him out, so it is quite likely, that had he kept quiet and allowed just four members of his positioning crew to board (in accordance with the available seats), they would have sacked him anyway for not acting professionally in bringing the problem to the attention of the operations staff whilst there was still time to do anything about it!
If they were out to get him... Well, rocks and hard places spring to mind.
I was talking to a mate of mine's wife yesterday who works for the Ryans at Prestwick and apparently, the pilots all got wined and dined at the company's expense to brainwash them into phoning the CAC and registering their opposition to the UK pilots being a single bargaining unit. If the management don't want it so badly, it must be good for the pilots.
And don't you just love it... Flame getting flamed!
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OzDude Excellent post, well thought out reply , me'thinks you maybe closer to this story than you are letting on, when this is taken to the tribunal as it surely will be,perhaps it would be a good idear for you to offer your services as a representative of the said captain, I am sure you would win I.I
I am sure you would win I.I
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If Ryanair want to withdraw from any of
their routes, then there are plenty of
other low cost airlines willing to take
their place.
So, there is no way that fares will
ever reach Flame's "£500-£600" mark
again. I'm sick and tired listening to
this old FR chestnut.
their routes, then there are plenty of
other low cost airlines willing to take
their place.
So, there is no way that fares will
ever reach Flame's "£500-£600" mark
again. I'm sick and tired listening to
this old FR chestnut.
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I dont want to pay £19.99 for a Dub-Lon return and be treated like shyte, I'd happily pay about £50-£60 for efficient, on time, polite service. The last time I travelled with Ryanair (and it will be the last time) when I tried to complain, the amount i'd paid for my ticket was thrown back in my face as if the quality of service you receive is directly proportional to the fare paid, this is not conducive to good customer service, sort it out Mick or say bye bye to the discerning customers.
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Pengineer ]
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Pengineer ]
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What the hell has that got to do with this thread? Stop moaning! If you want a meal, a coffee and a seat number then go and pay your £50 to £60. The choice is yours, you'll feel a lot better for it I'm sure(!)
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Come on Flame, or has your high horse deserted you? This total lack of competence and arrogance by FR management is disgusting to all professional pilots worldwide. I repeat my call on Danny Fyne to remove all FR advertising on this website until such time as FR can be seen to be giving pilots such as Danny and every single other pilot the respect we expect and deserve.
Sensible PPRuNer?
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Yep minuteman, betterr watch out or they'll stick you with a tag-line like the one me and New Bloke have under our names!
And well put Ozdude! It's depressing how readily the public (like Flame) swallow the propaganda and regurgitate it verbatim...as if they have a personal investment at stake. Brainwashing is alive and well in the 21st Century.
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: CaptSensible ]
And well put Ozdude! It's depressing how readily the public (like Flame) swallow the propaganda and regurgitate it verbatim...as if they have a personal investment at stake. Brainwashing is alive and well in the 21st Century.
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: CaptSensible ]
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Minuteman, WTF has removing the Ryanair ad got to do with this? Personally, I would have thought that as long as they are prepared to pay for their advert then they are also supporting this website and therefore providing us with the opportunity to discuss the problems. I think your proposal is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
While there are obviously some problems in Ryanair over their management techniques, they are probably no worse than many other companies discussed on here. This particular article is about the MDs style of management and his apparent faux pas which is likely to come back and haunt him.
At least thanks to the likes of Ryanair we have a forum where we can air our views because they obviously realise that by adverising here they are reaching a very wide audience of prospective recruits. Not sure what the managemennt of this site feel about it but your calls seem to me to be rather petty.
Until the pilots at Ryanair are prepared to take their own action why should the Pprune management listen to you?
While there are obviously some problems in Ryanair over their management techniques, they are probably no worse than many other companies discussed on here. This particular article is about the MDs style of management and his apparent faux pas which is likely to come back and haunt him.
At least thanks to the likes of Ryanair we have a forum where we can air our views because they obviously realise that by adverising here they are reaching a very wide audience of prospective recruits. Not sure what the managemennt of this site feel about it but your calls seem to me to be rather petty.
Until the pilots at Ryanair are prepared to take their own action why should the Pprune management listen to you?
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Excellent Posts, OzDude!
And Flame, I might add one thing to OzDude's nice and long post to you.
If a passenger has to be offloaded due to over-booking (as in this case) the airline will normally offer a certain amount of money (typically 50 or 100$ on a short-haul flight) to any passenger who will voluntarily disembark and wait for the next flight.
Normally there are always passengers that volunteer for this option.
Actually last week I had a PAX on one of my flights who was offered a 100$ to offload. She got extremely pi$$ed and made a large fuss, when it turned out it was a seat for her anyway... ("But you promised me a hundred dollars!!!")
Dunno if Ryanair makes such an offer, but I would guess they do. ...or?
OC.
And Flame, I might add one thing to OzDude's nice and long post to you.
If a passenger has to be offloaded due to over-booking (as in this case) the airline will normally offer a certain amount of money (typically 50 or 100$ on a short-haul flight) to any passenger who will voluntarily disembark and wait for the next flight.
Normally there are always passengers that volunteer for this option.
Actually last week I had a PAX on one of my flights who was offered a 100$ to offload. She got extremely pi$$ed and made a large fuss, when it turned out it was a seat for her anyway... ("But you promised me a hundred dollars!!!")
Dunno if Ryanair makes such an offer, but I would guess they do. ...or?
OC.
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Agree with the plaudits for Ozdudes post... to which I would add one thing, SBYM stated clearly a few pages back that the offload in this case was a *standby* who had no 'right' to fly in the first place...
Other than that I'm just an interested spectator on this thread!
Other than that I'm just an interested spectator on this thread!