United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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Wheat and chaffe notwithstanding, BOF is a person on this thread that is in part, presenting one seemingly informed viewpoint. It is unfortunate that the argument or information is being so wrapped up in aggressive armour, but that may be as result of wandering into the dragons den?
This is a very unusual event, although the CRM issues it raises (usually to a much lower degree) have a significance for everyone, if only from a general interest point of view. In other words there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere. To that end perhaps we could "can" some of the more churlish comments and either discuss it more seriously or simply read and listen.
I am not for one minute suggesting BOF is either right, well advised, or has the moral high ground, but it doesn't hurt to listen, rather than simply offer a churlish retort.
This is a very unusual event, although the CRM issues it raises (usually to a much lower degree) have a significance for everyone, if only from a general interest point of view. In other words there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere. To that end perhaps we could "can" some of the more churlish comments and either discuss it more seriously or simply read and listen.
I am not for one minute suggesting BOF is either right, well advised, or has the moral high ground, but it doesn't hurt to listen, rather than simply offer a churlish retort.
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This thread lay dormant and mostly forgotten until in post #650 you pop up once again, with gloat setting dialled to 10. Obviously you have some kind of agenda or something else to gain from stirring the pot.
Don't know about the rest of you but i have had a gutful of based on facts.
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But when he's on the ground and you're all safe, he's fair game?? That's really warped, I think you need help!
1) No cabin crew is gonna tamper with the food of the pilot who's flying the aircraft they are on. As she said, "I don't think ANYONE on our crew had a death wish."
2) However, no one in the cabin crew likes / trusts this capt.
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I have followed this whole thread for sometime and there have been some most pertanent CRM issued raised. Some of these may or may not have applicability to the case in hand, depending on the established facts as opposed to the rumour and innuendo that has been giving here.
For a start, CRM entails the safe and efficient use of all available resources. This is an ICAO definition. It is not one that I have made up. Whilst good CRM implies safety, excellent CRM also implies that decisions are efficient as well.
Let me be crystal clear on one thing: Good CRM is not some warm-and-fuzzy-feel-good-Dr Phil-meets Oprah-in-a-hot-tub kind of I’m ok/your ok-psycho-babble, good CRM is a tool that allows the decision makers to make good decisions. This means that input from subordinates is encouraged and where this input has validity, it is to be accounted for. When it does not have validity, it can be safely ignored. How a Captain goes about doing this a called command style. Remember, a flight crew is not a democracy.
Command decisions are not put to a vote and are not about making people ‘happy’. Command decisions are about safety and efficiency.CRM training is (or should be)about reinforcing this concept. Unfortunately the trend in recent years has been to misinterpret what CRM training and philosophy is all about. The blame for this trend falls squarely at the feet of CRM program developers and trainers (of which I am one). The contemporary outcome of many CRM courses is that subordinate crew members feel that they now have a licence to usurp authority belonging to the Captain. That is a million miles from the desired outcome.
The issues of generational cultural differences (esp. Gen Y) need to be accounted for in CRM training so as there is no mistake whatsoever that the Captain is in charge and that the chain of command is Capt-FO-SO/FE then CM and cabin crew. A surprising number of CC pupils in CRM training(many with years of airline experience) think that the Cabin Manager is 2nd in charge of the airplane, after the Captain!
There have been several posting regarding the issue of respect. I refer to the notion that respect needs to be ‘earned’. In the airline industrial environment nothing can be further from the truth. The reality is that all airline crew are paid (that’s right, paid) to be respectful of each others’ professional position. It goes without saying that CC and the CM are thus paid to be respectful of the Captain and conduct themselves accordingly.
Disrespectful conduct is a CRM threat (communication barrier) and should be treated as a legitimate safety issue. Shoving a Crew Dec. under the door without a courtesy call on the interphone to say that you have done so is an example of discourtesy. So is (as previously posted) holding paperwork slightly out of reach and looking at the FO with a ‘WTF?’* look on your face. These behaviours are also examples of workplace bullying. If you check the company HR policies at any Western airline, you will find that bullying is a form of workplace harassment.
In this off-loading issue, the Captains decision needs to be evaluated in terms of safety and efficiency of the operation. It is plain that we are deprived of all of the relevant information to make a judgement on the Captain’s decision. The issue, at least, has raised some worthwhile discussion.
*I had a CM pull this stunt on me once and I plainly asked her why she was giving ‘that look’ to the FO. She could not give an answer. I told her that if she disagreed with or did not understand my requests she should seek clarification from me. After this, the behaviour stopped.
For a start, CRM entails the safe and efficient use of all available resources. This is an ICAO definition. It is not one that I have made up. Whilst good CRM implies safety, excellent CRM also implies that decisions are efficient as well.
Let me be crystal clear on one thing: Good CRM is not some warm-and-fuzzy-feel-good-Dr Phil-meets Oprah-in-a-hot-tub kind of I’m ok/your ok-psycho-babble, good CRM is a tool that allows the decision makers to make good decisions. This means that input from subordinates is encouraged and where this input has validity, it is to be accounted for. When it does not have validity, it can be safely ignored. How a Captain goes about doing this a called command style. Remember, a flight crew is not a democracy.
Command decisions are not put to a vote and are not about making people ‘happy’. Command decisions are about safety and efficiency.CRM training is (or should be)about reinforcing this concept. Unfortunately the trend in recent years has been to misinterpret what CRM training and philosophy is all about. The blame for this trend falls squarely at the feet of CRM program developers and trainers (of which I am one). The contemporary outcome of many CRM courses is that subordinate crew members feel that they now have a licence to usurp authority belonging to the Captain. That is a million miles from the desired outcome.
The issues of generational cultural differences (esp. Gen Y) need to be accounted for in CRM training so as there is no mistake whatsoever that the Captain is in charge and that the chain of command is Capt-FO-SO/FE then CM and cabin crew. A surprising number of CC pupils in CRM training(many with years of airline experience) think that the Cabin Manager is 2nd in charge of the airplane, after the Captain!
There have been several posting regarding the issue of respect. I refer to the notion that respect needs to be ‘earned’. In the airline industrial environment nothing can be further from the truth. The reality is that all airline crew are paid (that’s right, paid) to be respectful of each others’ professional position. It goes without saying that CC and the CM are thus paid to be respectful of the Captain and conduct themselves accordingly.
Disrespectful conduct is a CRM threat (communication barrier) and should be treated as a legitimate safety issue. Shoving a Crew Dec. under the door without a courtesy call on the interphone to say that you have done so is an example of discourtesy. So is (as previously posted) holding paperwork slightly out of reach and looking at the FO with a ‘WTF?’* look on your face. These behaviours are also examples of workplace bullying. If you check the company HR policies at any Western airline, you will find that bullying is a form of workplace harassment.
In this off-loading issue, the Captains decision needs to be evaluated in terms of safety and efficiency of the operation. It is plain that we are deprived of all of the relevant information to make a judgement on the Captain’s decision. The issue, at least, has raised some worthwhile discussion.
*I had a CM pull this stunt on me once and I plainly asked her why she was giving ‘that look’ to the FO. She could not give an answer. I told her that if she disagreed with or did not understand my requests she should seek clarification from me. After this, the behaviour stopped.
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*I had a CM pull this stunt on me once and I plainly asked her why she was giving ‘that look’ to the FO. She could not give an answer. I told her that if she disagreed with or did not understand my requests she should seek clarification from me. After this, the behaviour stopped.
However, in the CC malcontents case, she persisted, whereupon she was offloaded, right now, and sent to base.
She was terminated forthwith.
That company, nor my present company puts up with any BS from CC, of whatever type.
Ever.
Suits me to a T.
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The post by Anthill is the best I have ever read, on any subject and especially CRM, in 10 yrs or so of Prune involvement!
Any Chief Pilot, in any company, ought to adopt his post as mandatory reading for all airline employees!
Well done!
Any Chief Pilot, in any company, ought to adopt his post as mandatory reading for all airline employees!
Well done!
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To Anthill,
Just a quick note to say that not only do I agree with what you have said it is my view Generation "Y" CC have confused "empowerment" a trendy term used by the corporates back in the 90s with today's ongoing CRM training. The Captain and then the FO are the chain of command. What ever happens behind the cockpit should always remember this. Somehow over the years some CC have fused these meanings empowerment and CRM into their own version of self-importance.
Just a quick note to say that not only do I agree with what you have said it is my view Generation "Y" CC have confused "empowerment" a trendy term used by the corporates back in the 90s with today's ongoing CRM training. The Captain and then the FO are the chain of command. What ever happens behind the cockpit should always remember this. Somehow over the years some CC have fused these meanings empowerment and CRM into their own version of self-importance.
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From reading this thread - yes, all of it! I have gained the distinct impression that the person/male or female encrypted as 'BASED ON FACT" is probably the cabin crew purser who was asked to leave at Miami. The vitriol is way overboard for anyone else who remained on the aircraft to destination; these all seem to be sensibly silent.
We have all suffered from the Big Chief power syndrome that sets in with people in command, from before the time that Fletcher Christian and his associates set Captain Bligh adrift. But as jet aircraft do not commonly take two or more years to reach destination, if Captain Bligh is in command, as innocent passengers would unwittingly suffer from any crew conflict, cabin crew who feel put upon should carry out their duty without complaint and certainly without fomenting mutiny. Just write a letter later.
Even though trolly dollys no longer have to serve and smile, and can carry on into their late middle years, all the same they are more easily replaced than experienced aircrew.
We have all suffered from the Big Chief power syndrome that sets in with people in command, from before the time that Fletcher Christian and his associates set Captain Bligh adrift. But as jet aircraft do not commonly take two or more years to reach destination, if Captain Bligh is in command, as innocent passengers would unwittingly suffer from any crew conflict, cabin crew who feel put upon should carry out their duty without complaint and certainly without fomenting mutiny. Just write a letter later.
Even though trolly dollys no longer have to serve and smile, and can carry on into their late middle years, all the same they are more easily replaced than experienced aircrew.
BOF could be one of many people. I suspect that the least likely candidates would be be people on duty for the flight as they would likely have been instructed to stay silent.
Deadheaders, copers, retirees or relatives can make up a large pool of candidates who both know the staff and company issues and share their stories with other copers. BOF may even not have been on the flight, but could be a significant other who feels he or she is beyond the reach of HR.
Deadheaders, copers, retirees or relatives can make up a large pool of candidates who both know the staff and company issues and share their stories with other copers. BOF may even not have been on the flight, but could be a significant other who feels he or she is beyond the reach of HR.
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In addition, who else would have been in a position to say (Post #140 as BOF) "... She slide sic them under the door and timed that they were not picked up by anyone in the cockpit for 37 minutes". How bizarre that she would be timing this happening to the minute and not very not long after departure. She seems to have had an agenda planned from the outset.
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The Boss!
When I'm Captain if you have an issue with me, I can accept that, ... and you have the right to disembark the aircraft at any altitude you desire. I will assist you with that. People know better than to screw with this Captain or they will walk the plank with assistance from the rest of the crew. That's real CRM.