NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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Did the crew make an error. Yep. Was it in the same class as overflying an airport while pounding on a laptop computer … I’ll let you determine that on your own.
Night flying has been part of the industry for many years. With that being said that's part of the business be it good or bad. As professionals, we take steps to ensure we are adequately rested before reporting for duty. I know, this is not much of a consolation, but at least with a heavy crew comes the designated rest period for one and all.
Anyway, is there confirmation that the captain was upgrading versus transitioning from another aircraft?
Can we agree, that as pilots, we are trained not to risk the lives of others to safe the life of on... even if it's one of our own?
Can we agree, that as pilots, we are trained to abandon the approach/landing if either unstable, or it just does not look right?
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Enforcement Action? or ASAP? --> $$ later
Re' FAA's reported enforcement action -- I don't know how this will turnout, but there was a recent award of $$$$$ after FAA was ordered to pay after their quick mistakes in a case, from headline of 2Sep09:
AC No: 120-66B
Subject: AVIATION SAFETY ACTION PROGRAM (ASAP)
... [from paragraph 10 ...]
10. GUIDELINES FOR EXCLUDING REPORTS FROM ASAP.
a. Exclusion. The following types of reports are excluded under an ASAP:
Page 8 Par 9 11/15/02 AC 120-66B
a. FAA Investigation of Events Involving Possible Noncompliance ... FAA is responsible for the proper investigation and disposition of all suspected cases of noncompliance ... FAA establishes investigative and enforcement jurisdiction and responsibility regarding events reported to the ASAP ERC....
c. Reports Excluded From ASAP.
"... FAA Ordered to Pay More Than $120,000 for Attorney Fees and Expenses..."
The too-quick enforcement action (?or alleged?) from FAA is challenged by their own AC120-66:AC No: 120-66B
Subject: AVIATION SAFETY ACTION PROGRAM (ASAP)
... [from paragraph 10 ...]
10. GUIDELINES FOR EXCLUDING REPORTS FROM ASAP.
a. Exclusion. The following types of reports are excluded under an ASAP:
Page 8 Par 9 11/15/02 AC 120-66B
(1) Reports involving an apparent violation that is not inadvertent or that appears to involve an intentional disregard for safety.
(2) Reports that appear to involve possible criminal activity, substance abuse ...
11. ENFORCEMENT POLICY. (2) Reports that appear to involve possible criminal activity, substance abuse ...
a. FAA Investigation of Events Involving Possible Noncompliance ... FAA is responsible for the proper investigation and disposition of all suspected cases of noncompliance ... FAA establishes investigative and enforcement jurisdiction and responsibility regarding events reported to the ASAP ERC....
c. Reports Excluded From ASAP.
(1) Reported events that are excluded from ASAP will be referred to the FAA for possible enforcement action ... FAA Order 2150.3A.
(2) ... events ... criminal activity, substance abuse, controlled substances, alcohol, or intentional falsification will be referred to an appropriate FAA office ... for any enforcement purposes, and ... to law enforcement agencies, if appropriate. If upon completion of subsequent investigation it is determined that the event did not involve any of the aforementioned activities, then the report will be referred back to the ERC for a determination of acceptability under ASAP. Such reports will be accepted under ASAP ...
(3) Neither the written ASAP report nor the content of the written ASAP report will be used to initiate or support company discipline or as evidence for any purpose in a FAA enforcement action except as provided for in 11c(2).
(2) ... events ... criminal activity, substance abuse, controlled substances, alcohol, or intentional falsification will be referred to an appropriate FAA office ... for any enforcement purposes, and ... to law enforcement agencies, if appropriate. If upon completion of subsequent investigation it is determined that the event did not involve any of the aforementioned activities, then the report will be referred back to the ERC for a determination of acceptability under ASAP. Such reports will be accepted under ASAP ...
(3) Neither the written ASAP report nor the content of the written ASAP report will be used to initiate or support company discipline or as evidence for any purpose in a FAA enforcement action except as provided for in 11c(2).
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Re' FAA's reported enforcement action -- I don't know how this will turnout, but there was a recent award of $$$$$ after FAA was ordered to pay after their quick mistakes in a case, from headline of 2Sep09
? Is there anything that leads you to beleive that the opinion of the FAA is wrong and that actually there was ot reckless and endangerment, or violation of any FAR for that matter
?
Last edited by captjns; 28th Oct 2009 at 16:45.
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ASAP reports won't give them a get out of jail card since there were clearly not the sole source of information that the incident occurred:
From: http://www.faa.gov/.../asap/.../FAA_...ce_reports.doc
And recently, in cases like unstable approaches, the feds have considered the violation willful disregard of the regs and taken certificate action.
Question: Why does the ASAP AC120-66B have two definitions for sole source in Section - one for the FAA, and another for the company?
Answer: For the purpose of the FAA enforcement incentive for reports involving possible violations accepted under ASAP, a report is considered sole source when all evidence of the event available to the FAA outside of ASAP is discovered by, or otherwise predicated upon, the employee's ASAP report. Accepted ASAP reports which are sole source to the FAA are closed with an ERC response, and with ERC recommended corrective action, if appropriate, but no FAA action of any type is taken on such reports. Reports of events involving possible violations for which independent evidence of the event is available to the FAA (i.e. evidence obtained outside of ASAP that is not discovered by, or otherwise predicated upon, the ASAP report), are considered non-sole-source for FAA purposes. Accepted ASAP reports which are non-sole-source to the FAA for which it is determined under ASAP that there is sufficient evidence of a possible violation are closed either with Administrative Action or with Informal Action in accordance with the Enforcement Decision Tool, as determined appropriate by the ASAP ERC.
Answer: For the purpose of the FAA enforcement incentive for reports involving possible violations accepted under ASAP, a report is considered sole source when all evidence of the event available to the FAA outside of ASAP is discovered by, or otherwise predicated upon, the employee's ASAP report. Accepted ASAP reports which are sole source to the FAA are closed with an ERC response, and with ERC recommended corrective action, if appropriate, but no FAA action of any type is taken on such reports. Reports of events involving possible violations for which independent evidence of the event is available to the FAA (i.e. evidence obtained outside of ASAP that is not discovered by, or otherwise predicated upon, the ASAP report), are considered non-sole-source for FAA purposes. Accepted ASAP reports which are non-sole-source to the FAA for which it is determined under ASAP that there is sufficient evidence of a possible violation are closed either with Administrative Action or with Informal Action in accordance with the Enforcement Decision Tool, as determined appropriate by the ASAP ERC.
And recently, in cases like unstable approaches, the feds have considered the violation willful disregard of the regs and taken certificate action.
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This is my first and probably last post to this forum - I am just an English lawyer with a hobby interest in aviation. With regard, however to the language of the pilots being "on a frolic of their own", I too was interested to see it in a modern American legal document. Unless the flow of usage was in the opposite direction, I think that you acquired it from us.
In what is now called Employment Law, and was then called Master and Servant, English courts in the nineteenth century (if not before), developed a doctrine under which a master could be ("vicariously") responsible for harm done by his servant. The master could avoid such liability by showing that the servant was not doing what he was employed to do, and doing it negligently, but was, in the language of the time, "off on a frolic of his own". It became a term of art in the field.
The case of Limpus v London General Omnibus Co (1862) comes to mind - in which bus drivers were racing each other from stop to stop to compete for passengers and caused an accident. The driver was held not to be on a frolic of his own, but doing what he was paid to do, negligently. Now if only you guys raced each other from hub to hub for the same reason ........
In what is now called Employment Law, and was then called Master and Servant, English courts in the nineteenth century (if not before), developed a doctrine under which a master could be ("vicariously") responsible for harm done by his servant. The master could avoid such liability by showing that the servant was not doing what he was employed to do, and doing it negligently, but was, in the language of the time, "off on a frolic of his own". It became a term of art in the field.
The case of Limpus v London General Omnibus Co (1862) comes to mind - in which bus drivers were racing each other from stop to stop to compete for passengers and caused an accident. The driver was held not to be on a frolic of his own, but doing what he was paid to do, negligently. Now if only you guys raced each other from hub to hub for the same reason ........
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...on a frolic of their own...
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With regard, however to the language of the pilots being "on a frolic of their own", I too was interested to see it in a modern American legal document.
Here's a web reference:
PLC Law Department: No vicarious liability where employee "on a frolic of his own"
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Note to all the press!! Get your own house in order before you aim at us! And I hasten to add before you say this is an isolated incident, so is every thing you hit us for. Respect.
http://gawker.com/5080042/uk-reporte...-on-hope-booze
Comments anyone? I have to go to bed with my evian.
Who needs bedtime stories when you have Will Smith?!
The Fresh Prince held a press conference in Japan today, where one sleep-deprived (or extremely bored) reporter was caught catching some zzzs while Smith rambled on about “I Am Legend.”
Surprisingly, the ever charming Will didn’t seem to mind. He must be used to it.
The Fresh Prince held a press conference in Japan today, where one sleep-deprived (or extremely bored) reporter was caught catching some zzzs while Smith rambled on about “I Am Legend.”
Surprisingly, the ever charming Will didn’t seem to mind. He must be used to it.
Comments anyone? I have to go to bed with my evian.
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So enoon, from your post, are you saying that IF "off on a frolic of his own" is a legitimate legal term and recognized in the US, that it's use in the letter of revocation for the NW pilots certificates that the FAA has released NW from any liability in this case and placed all blame on the crew, all in one letter?
I'm so far away from actual legal advice that it's laughable, but a few minutes on the internet turned up this link \http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frolic_and_detour
which seems to speak to why that terminology (which also struck me as anachronistic) was used. In essence, it absolves the employers of liability because the defendants are doing things in direct contradiction to the instructions/policies/procedures of their employers.
which seems to speak to why that terminology (which also struck me as anachronistic) was used. In essence, it absolves the employers of liability because the defendants are doing things in direct contradiction to the instructions/policies/procedures of their employers.
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I know a former pilot and a former aircraft mechanic who got their tickets pinched by the authorities as a result of a faked engine overhaul and subsequent in-flight engine failure in the 80s.
I think that action was appropriate but I would like to know more before I judge the license pinching actions in this case. The action taken only a few days after the incident seems too quick.
Is this really as simple as the crew using PCs and loosing track of time? I suspect there will be more facts that will eventually surface.
I think that action was appropriate but I would like to know more before I judge the license pinching actions in this case. The action taken only a few days after the incident seems too quick.
Is this really as simple as the crew using PCs and loosing track of time? I suspect there will be more facts that will eventually surface.
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So enoon, from your post, are you saying that IF "off on a frolic of his own" is a legitimate legal term and recognized in the US, that it's use in the letter of revocation for the NW pilots certificates that the FAA has released NW from any liability in this case and placed all blame on the crew, all in one letter?
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Where are the lawyers. You would think they would already be suing everyone, from Airbus for not making the Bongs loud enough, to the laptop makers for not having a "do not use while flying" disclaimer, to the Airline for anyreason they can make up, to the aircrew themselves. I am very disapointed in lack of lawyer inactivity, not really the Amercian way. lol 
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Expanding on enoon's post, I'm an American lawyer. In a famous opinion read by every first-year American law student, Judge Benjamin Cardozo elaborated on the "frolic and detour" concept discussed by enoon and other posters. Even lawyers who don't practice employment law will be familiar with it, so it's not terribly surprising that the FAA lawyer who drafted the revocation letters would call the NW pilots' behavior a "frolic."
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Just before the "frolic of your own", the revocation letter states that they were without ATC communication for a period of 91 minutes. The time line I read earlier in the letter states that the missed hand-off to Minneapolis Center was at 7:24 and communication was reastablished at 8:14, a period of 50 minutes.
Does this mean that prior to 7:24, there was no communication between NW188 and Denver Center for 41 minutes? No sector change, not a peep, nothing at all for 41 minutes?
Does this mean that prior to 7:24, there was no communication between NW188 and Denver Center for 41 minutes? No sector change, not a peep, nothing at all for 41 minutes?
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"frolic and detour", maybe they were admiring the new windows 7 or showing off their new Apple, however joking aside this is nothing more than a major overreaction by the FAA, they should be given a major dressing down and maybe a fine from the FAA for the trouble they caused the rest of the system but taking two obviously normally competent guys out for the sake of the media which is what it looks like is ridiculous, what the public fails to realise is that we have so much pride in our work, and in that these guys have suffered far too much already with the tossers camped outside the door. However as there seems to be a surplus of crew in the US the FAA must need ways to increase their funding so maybe this is the way to go. Look out everyone. This just sucks!!
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Hey Enoon
thanks for the bit about frolic etc.
do you have to wear one of those powdered wigs and call the judge, "MiLord"?
Just for fun...is there any defense strategy that you would offer the two wayward pilots? IF I were the copilot, I would say that the captain ordered me to use my PC. then I would sue NW for a hostile work environment.
We should either design planes that are much harder to fly, or design planes that don't need pilots.
do you have to wear one of those powdered wigs and call the judge, "MiLord"?
Just for fun...is there any defense strategy that you would offer the two wayward pilots? IF I were the copilot, I would say that the captain ordered me to use my PC. then I would sue NW for a hostile work environment.
We should either design planes that are much harder to fly, or design planes that don't need pilots.