NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[DC-ATE]

protectthehornet-

I used to fly out of DCA. I don't think anyone ever crashed on landing to the south...

Ahh.....memories. ADF off of Georgetown to RWY 15 was always interesting. Landing on 18 was fun!! Imposible to fall asleep coming in there no matter how far away you came from.

[Tri-To-Start]

Come on boys and girls. IF the weather had been bad, bumped around by turbulence...the pilots would have put down their laptops and watched the instruments.

It was the very perfection of the evening which minimized the risk and allowed the pilots to watch the laptop instead of the instruments.

Yes, but we all know that it's usually a series of otherwise benign events that create aviation disasters. Pilots mesmerized over their laptops was the first event. If another event had occurred at around the same time it could have been a disaster.

I like the swiss cheese analogy. There can be a lot of holes but they usually aren't lined up. When all the holes line up together is when disaster can strike.

The passenger's lives weren't in imminent danger but a huge safety net was no longer in place with two totally distracted pilots.

Our entire air transport system is based on safety redundancy. There needs to be zero tolerance to the blatant disregard for airline saftey.

I'm not so sure DL should send Cheney and Cole to the soup line. I'd clip their wings and have them put on some safety workshops on situational awareness. Two careers go "poof". What better examples to teach from.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

And the bit about fuel reserves. Let me tell you...IF I had fuel for destination plus 45 minutes ONLY...I would be checking the fuel every 10 minutes or so. I have a feeling they were pretty fat on fuel.

I wasn't saying that. They must have been 'fat' on fuel thank goodness.

At least 90 mins plus 45 mins equals 135 mins (we hope, unless another issue arises).

How much 'fat' do you carry?

They weren't watching the gauges anyway - so who cares. They landed safely after all as someone else noted earlier.


Just give them a pat on the shoulder and tell them not to use their laptops in future - oh and spare a minute to monitor the instruments - there's good chaps.

Gordon Bennett!!!

FOK

[cessnapuppy]

they still f*&%d up, and they don't deserve to continue flying as professional pilots.

wow. so easy to say, isnt it? "Off with his head!" Spoken like one who cant say "There for the grace of God, go I"

Do you think they PLANNED to overshoot by 150 miles?

Cant you see that we are looking at an issue that is BIGGER than two wayward pilots? This is a SYSTEM failure even more than a personal one.

The basic "system" is, two pilots, one backs up and monitors the other... REDUNDANCY.

Here we have the primary and secondary system failing. What does that tell us? What adjustments do we have to make to CRM right now? In my mind, the pilots are irrelevant.

We use this two man model all over the place. Security guards, Doctors, Policemen. And we've seen this kind of 'deviation' before.
Two policemen encounter a suspect, one deviates into an excessive force situation..and the other backs him up. The protections to prevent 'the lone wolf acting alone' scenario fail. Why?

[CaptainChaotic]

Just give them a pat on the shoulder and tell them not to use their laptops in future - oh and spare a minute to monitor the instruments - there's good chaps.

You either choose a system that is reactive or one that is pre-active. If the system is pre-active then you can't after the fact plead for a reactive system.

i.e.
We will penalise pilots if their actions could cause an accident - pre-active.
We will penalise pilots if their actions cause an accident - reactive.

A presentation of any kind on a notebook is designed to hold your attention, both pilots took a gamble that whatever they were viewing would not steal their attention away from flying the aircraft, and they lost.

They broke the Dirty Harry rule, "A man has to know his limitations".

It wasn't like the notebook fell open in front of them and they made a bad choice. They both introduced a risk to the flight that was not already present. They then gambled that an attention seeking device would not keep their attention away from flying the aircraft. If they had known their limitations they would still have their licences. If they had known their limitations then they could have achieved what they were trying to do without putting the flight in danger.

[DC-ATE]

I've got three computers in front of me: Two desktops and a laptop on a side table. Usually, the laptop is off, but the two desktops are on while I'm at my desk. No matter what I'm involved in on either of these computers, I dare say no more than ten minutes EVER goes by that I don't look away from them. I submit it is impossible, especially in a moving conveyance, to be so engrossed in anything for over an hour. Sorry, but I just don't buy the computer story. Too bad these two screwed up what was left of their careers.

[IGh]

channelized attention

channelized attention vs "attention management" (as Tony Kern discusses in his "Flight Discipline"). The Human Factors are interesting: a pilot must be capable of Channelized Attention during turbulence, precipitation-static on the radios, &ct. But, that same ability later gets him "distracted" during CRZ on a nice day.

Note to the NO LAPTOPs chanters: Pilots often have abandon the 50-Lbs of paper manuals. Instead many pilots now carry the the big manuals as a pdf-file on a laptop. So, at many companies, one pilot has to be free to access the laptop to check details in the manuals.

Regarding Pilot Ethics, Professional Standards, and Cockpit Housekeeping taboos -- I'm adding the Laptop (more than one) to my list of Housekeeping taboos. FAA & airlines need to define some guidelines for any airline's "Pilot Flying". [I always chuckled when the FO-PF asked me if I'ld mind if he read the newspaper -- a question that always led me to wonder about that guys' background on historic inflight upsets.]

[Soap Box Cowboy]

Anyone given any thought that by both having their laptops out, given the position of their inflight tables, that they would have been covering the EHSI and EADI, also what about the top of descent chime? Airbus from my understanding will automaticly calculate a descent point given relevant data input with an audio chime as a reminder. And what about the cabin crew? Officially in my company they must check on the flight deck every fifteen minutes, I must admit this is not strictly observed, but given that the aircraft overflew the destination by atleast 20 minutes the cabin crew should have realised or been in the cockpit to check long before the moment they said they entered. Unless there is a different way of doing things in north america.

[Graybeard]

Rush to Judgement

... as some are deeming it a "rush-to-judgment" move.

Didn't Johnnie Cochron (Cochrane) invent that term during the OJ Simpson trial? Anyway, the term is now a true American classic!

The first I saw the term "Rush to Judgement," it was the title of a 1960s book by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison on the President Kennedy Assassination investigation. He was later discredited, maybe by the folks he blamed.

Enough trivia: back to the lynching.

GB

[portquartercv67]

To all the Dudley-Do-Rights and “I’m appalled” pilots and wanna-bees posting on this thread: You make me sick! You remind me long ago of a handful of pilots in my squadron who would tell their wives how all the other pilots were screwing around. Just not them. I’m retired now. Next time when I enjoy my airline pass privileges, I hope none of you pubic-hair combing pilots is up front.

BTW, where was all the indignant talk when earlier this year, Korean Air did virtually the same thing, flying nordo for over an hour through several different European FIRs? Even the extremely punitive KAL/CASA system didn’t yank their tickets. Re-training, re-checks and increased SUSI checks for all. The point was made.

PQ

[CaptainChaotic]

You remind me long ago of a handful of pilots in my squadron who would tell their wives how all the other pilots were screwing around

I have little respect for guys that screw around when married, even less for those that can't do so without needing others to lie or cover for them.

Nobody grassed on the pilots, they broke the rules and the FBI came out to the aircraft for sake. Other pilots or the press didn't phone the FBI.

These pilots messed it up for all the pilots who can safely use a notebook when flying

[captjns]

I just don't get it. Why are there so many posters on PPrune and Airlinepilotcentral.com trying to justify these two gentlemen irresponsible behaviour, violation of FARs, boarder line... no... actual reckless and endangerment.

What would their opinions be if these to flew 30 minutes out over the Atlantic Ocean with a 100 knot tail wind and then queried each other... where the are we? And realized they needed 45 minutes to get back with only 40 minutes of fuel onboard til tanks dry? What would their opinion be then? Great water landing and nobody drowned?

Perhaps the FAA will reduce the certificate revocation to a suspension of flying privileges.


But you what? There are a lot of guys on the street with equal if not better qualifications that would give their... well use your imaginations, to be employed.

[Sikpilot]

"I just don't get it. Why are there so many posters on PPrune and Airlinepilotcentral.com trying to justify these two gentlemen irresponsible behaviour, violation of FARs, boarder line... no... actual reckless and endangerment. "

Because WE do not have ALL the facts. When the report comes out with ALL the facts then I will judge these two men.

And for the record, I consider it irresponsible behavior to hang them WITHOUT all the facts. It is obvious you feel it is perfectly fine to lynch them without knowing the truth.

[captjns]

as posted by sikpilot

Because WE do not have ALL the facts. When the report comes out with ALL the facts then I will judge these two men.

And for the record, I consider it irresponsible behavior to hang them WITHOUT all the facts.

Where have you been for the past week? They admitted to using their laptops... They admitted to the distraction? Tell me... what do you think is a reasonable excuse to be out of radio contact for more than an hour? What would you think a reasonable excuse would be to overfly the intended destination by 150 miles. Tell me... what would you deem to be a reasonable excuse for the cabin crew bringing to to their attention... hey when are we landing?

If by some miracle of the sky gods, and that's a really big IF, Delta Airlines reinstates them, provided the FAA downgrades the revocation to a suspension, do you think Cheney and Cole will ever lose their situational awareness? I'll bet they'll be very proactive in following company SOPs thereinafter.... what do you think?

Tell you what... bring two furloughed NWA guys back on the property and furlough these two... not fire them... but furlough them. When their recall comes up... give them their shot.

Afterall you remember the outrage of the massive bonuses paid to the executives of AIG? Why reward someone for failure?

[wes_wall]

.. bring two furloughed NWA guys back on the property and furlough these two... not fire them... but furlough them.

I go along with recalling two on furlough, but no retaining these two airman. Fire them - flying schedule carriers in the USA is over.

Give some thought that if something bad had happen, the airplane lost, and a bunch of people killed, I suggest that Air Bus would have a very difficult time keeping the A320 in the air. It would be grounded. I doubt crew laptop computers would ever see the light of day as a probable cause. Yeah, a call to judgement would go out, and in a big rush.

No way any justification what so ever can excuse away their conduct. Sad.

[captjns]

As posted by wes_wall

go along with recalling two on furlough, but no retaining these two airman.

Forgive me... I'm on my sundeck with a martini, shaken not stirred, and... well... I guess I was feeling a bit magnanimous.

[BenThere]

bring two furloughed NWA guys back on the property and furlough these two

One problem with that solution is that there are no Northwest or Delta pilots on furlough.

[Eboy]

Northwest Flight Probe Expands to Look at Controllers

Partly due [to] possible confusion caused by a controller's shift change around the same time, the controllers coming on duty may have failed to realize for 20 minutes or more that the Northwest jet hadn't popped up on the last assigned frequency or contacted them at all, according to one person familiar with the investigation.

Northwest Flight Probe Expands to Look at Controllers - WSJ.com

[captjns]

Hey that works for me... Next time I overfly my destination, I'll blame the dog.

[Tri-To-Start]

Just give them a pat on the shoulder and tell them not to use their laptops in future - oh and spare a minute to monitor the instruments - there's good chaps.

Yes, they forgot to fly the plane with 150 lives on board. But they're good old chaps. Let's pat them on the back and tell them the public is being overly sensitive.

It's a slap in the face to all the pilots that remain professional and focused on safety!!