NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[mary meagher]

Protecthehornet mentions that there is a substantial bar on the door, and that even to let a flight attendant in with coffee or other stimulants, one guy has to get up to let her in.

The rest of the time are you just stuck in the office? I know on very long flights with extra crew there are bunks available for rest. Is it no longer permitted to have one of the flight crew take a walk and greet the pax? Walking around helps us to stay awake in the back and keep the circulation going.

And of course there is another resource, those paying for the ride have an interest in safe arrival. Do UAL still let us listen in to channel 9? I take great interest in all RT, and keep an eye on that cute little moving map on the back of the seat. If I noticed a peculiar deviation from track, if the chaps up front didn't explain nicely, would certainly ask flight attendants if there is a problem.

Passengers are an underutilised resource, many of us also have flying experience. Even a back seat passenger can sound the alarm if the driver dozes off.

[muduckace]

A Solution

It would be simple to generate a parameter based off the DADC's and the ships clock to call out "COCK-A-DOODLE-DOO" every 15 minutes through the EGPWS computer.

[Tan]

Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement..

[Ditchdigger]

Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement..

Forgive me if this has been mentioned earlier. I've read the whole thread, over the couple of days it's been running, and I don't recall anyone having made this point...

From an ATC perspective (specifically the one I'm married to), these guys were on an IFR flight plan, and whatever the underlying reason, flew 150 miles in controlled airspace without having a clearance to do so. Even if they'd lost all comms, they'd have been expected to follow the established procedure to approach and land at Minneapolis, as the flight plan called for. That much is fact, and I haven't heard anyone say otherwise...

[p51guy]

They would have communicated with ATC by several methods if they knew they had lost com. I have done it a couple of times in an airliner when they forgot to hand us off and we flew out of radio range.

[mermoz92]

Where is Airport....and where are runways for SkyTeam ?

YouTube - "Airplane Movie" - Autopilot

[Tan]

Ditchdigger

Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications.

As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports.

[DIA74]

Autopilots

I understand a flight plan is loaded in the box prior to dep, with waypoints right up to the expected arrival runway When autopilot is selected it follows the flight level and way points to dest. What happens when the a/c reaches the descent point if the pilots do not take over? The NWA a/c apparently carried on flying in a straight line beyond MSP. I am surprised there would not have been an audio alert at the descent point or thereabouts - an electronic "HELP! Do something!" If no one touched the controls would an aircraft continue in a straight line until it ran out of fuel? Luckily they had enough for this "alternate" field!

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger

Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications.

As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports.

I think you may be missing my point. Regardless of airline SOPs, they had an ATC clearance for a route to Minneapolis. There does not seem to be any disputing the fact that they went 150 miles further, through several sectors of airspace, without getting a clearance to do that. Unless it was an emergency (which possibility hasn't been mentioned at all), they weren't allowed to do that.

I don't think my post can be characterized as a rush to judgement, but this is an internet discussion forum, and speculation is part and parcel of what goes on here. If you find it more acceptable, I'm speculating that the FAA is likely to have a problem with that lack of clearance.

[dweeks]

"When I first started with my airline, we had to monitor our company GUARD frequency. A vhf freq for our airline. We had to keep the volume up and the speaker selected. Modern ways should not have changed such simple precautions"

Well, in '86 when I started at my carrier, we had no ACARS or SELCAL. For "operational control" we (meaning the F/O) had to monitor company frequency ALL the time.

Now imagine how many missed calls you get going into LAX, when the F/O is running the ATC radios and listening to a company frequency that is the same for LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, SAN, and LAS, with everyone calling in out/off/on/in/fuel numbers/ETAs. Remember, no ACARS, and we had to call everything.

(No I don't work for Southwest...)

You'd be doing well if you only missed a couple of ATC calls per leg in the LAX basin.

As soon as I upgraded, I told my F/Os to NOT monitor company frequency until out of the LAX area. That cut the number of missed radio calls by a huge margin.

[Tan]

Ditchdigger

Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment. Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums.

[greenslopes]

These guys were asleep, if not then this is such a serious breach of airmanship it deems them completely unprofessional. A sad day when a two crew operation fails to land at the intended aerodrome. If they were asleep then perhaps their fatigue management system was ineffectual.
But to say they were in a heated discussion.....Yeh right. A complete lack of credibility, at best a complete breakdown of SOP's and CRM, let alone Threat and Error Management.

Either way when the truth is revealed then hopefully this never occurs again.

[p51guy]

Unless you know at departure what your likely landing approach is the approach normally isn't loaded into the computer. On arrival you get a pretty good idea of your arrival so can program it. That gives you your VNAV data and backs up your descent. Since these pilots were out of the loop over 30 minutes out no approach was inserted.. Therefore instead of doing the Athens profile and entering holding they went to heading hold. The hearing will be interesting. Hope the best for these guys but they have a lot of explaining to do.

[rottenray]

DC-ATE Writes:

I did NOT say DON'T do anything about it. I merely said the tapes should not be released to the public. That is not their purpose.

DC, I've enjoyed reading many of your posts here as they reflect your experience and skill and philosophy, but I only partially agree. No, John Q. Public doesn't need to hear every conversation on the flight deck. But this was a major SNAFU no matter how one looks at it, and consumers are entitled to judge for themselves how it came to be.

Wonderkid writes:

Re sex, was thinking the same thing...
...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!)

Kid, the pink is mine. That's a rather homophobic thing to say, and - without putting words in your mouth - I find it a little intriguing that you seem to think that being caught with pants down on the flight deck would be less humiliating were it straight sex. Helluva first post!

windytoo writes:

Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well.

That's sort of stingish, but I think you made your point well. Based upon my last few flights (as SLF) I get the feeling that FA are less than interested in the crew up front, for whatever reason. With all the pay cuts, FA lately has a very "feeling screwed" attitude for the most part. Not that they aren't entitled - they have been, along with everyone else.

The only folks who seem to be prospering at this point are those who buy tickets based on price alone.

They're generally folks who think "flap" is something a wing does, instead of part of it.

...

[Finn47]

Would it be possible to pull the CVR circuit breaker for a few minutes - so they could agree on a cover-up story between them, for instance - and then push the c/b back in, without anyone noticing?

[captjns]

Very good point... DC-ATE The voice content on the tape is not at issue. It's what lead to a complete breakdown in SOPs and total loss of situational awareness.

[Finn47]

... it says here on page 2 that the airline is offering each passenger a 500 $ voucher for future travel with the airline, so obviously they are embarrassed by the episode...

Off-target pilots' licenses are in peril | StarTribune.com

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger

Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment...

From the article linked above:

A spokeswoman for the FAA, Laura Brown, said her agency had sent "letters of investigation" to both pilots, Capt. Timothy B. Cheney and first officer Richard I. Cole, notifying them that the incident could lead to the emergency revocation or suspensions of their licenses within days.

Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums.

I'm not an airline pilot. I'm a professional ditchdigger. Really.

Aviation analysts, puzzled by the unusually long gap of silence, wondered whether the pilots could have been sleeping.

Ditchdigger by day, that is. At night, I'm an "aviation analyst", although that's just a hobby...

[Lazerdog]

Since all the aspects of this flight seem inconceivable, I wonder if it would be worth checking out the flight deck pressurization system on that particular aircraft. Hypoxia would certainly explain the behaviors noted, including the attempted explanation by the crew.

[Brave heart]

Pilot Respond...

B777 has the "Pilot Respond" EICAS message popping out after 20 minutes of inactivity; at 22nd minute activates the Master Caution and at 23rd minute activates the Master Warning (same aural warning like for the Auto Pilot disengagement)... Quite effective way to prevent prolonged nodding...

I like it...