Pilot caught smelling of alcohol at LHR

[Will Fraser]

TDK mk2...You are a free man. You can do anything you think is proper. One thing you must not try to do.

Everything.

[Jofm5]

TDK mk2:

My advice is do what you feel safe to do. Putting your pax at risk is putting yourself at risk which at worst could be to deny your offspring a dad. Evaluate it that way and you will make the right choices !

p.s. congrats on the (fairly) recent arrival - mine is at 7 months and wow they are hard work - thankful for the jumperoo at least I can put him down for ten mins have a smoke and let him wear himself out lol.

[FrequentSLF]

FL

FSLF
I can't account for the contents of dictionary.com, but that is certainly not the law in England.
I was surprised to read your post, very surprised in fact. You've taken an active part in previous alcohol threads in which I've explained the law in a way which I thought was very clear.
If it wasn't, there's nothing more I can do.
I'm at a loss to think of any way in which I could make it clearer than I have already - several times.

My intention was to show that sometimes words have different meanings depends on how you want to interpret them. You did use "impaired" not drunk, I already stated in the past that I do not think the use of the word drunk is appropriate at all in such thread. Thanks to you I understood pretty well the law in England.
However I do not agree with statements such as "being over the limit does not mean be drunk" implying fitness for duty..

FSLF

[Roger Sofarover]

Will

I assume following your logic that you would advocate that any individual who has been even the slightest over the legal limit whilst driving a car should lose their driving licence for ever, as the potential consequences of an accident involving a car could be the deaths of many people.?

The field breathalyser has been proved on countless occasions to have been inaccurate and is the reason why the field breathalyser result must be confirmed by another teast before it is admissable in court. So the chap is not guilty yet...get it.

Furthermore, there is a massive difference between being over the aviation limit for alcohol and being drunk. For those also commenting that drinking is self inflicted and fatigue is not, then think again. A point to ponder. If you only had 5 hours sleep last night, then when you wake up this morning and drive to work (let alone strap in to an aircraft), your reflexes are almost clinically identical to someone who has drunk 2 pints of lager. If you have had 20 hours of wakefulness then your reactions are the same as somebody that has had 5 pints of beer.

Now whilst many here will never advocate drinking and driving/flying, how many of you have packed the family into the car at 3am to make the 2 hour drive to the airport, so that you get the early morning cheap flight on your holidays? I assume those of you that are oh so perfect and professional will realise now that given the above information, whilst the causal effects of fatigue may not be self inflicted, the decision to drive and then subsequently fly when you no you are fatigued (or only had 5 hours sleep last night) is a decision that is entirely self inflicted.

Fincastle

Oh , you mean that the breathalyser was faulty. Get real, the guy probably had a few too many with the hosties in a cosy little hotel room party, probably not the first time, only this time he got caught.

Whilst i get over the urge that has been triggered by your post to shout AS*HOLE at the top of my voice, would you please make yourself known to MI5, CIA, FBI and the NSA. They have countless crimes waiting to be solved by an individual as gifted as you are for being able to pluck the facts of a case out of thin air when you know neither the individual, the chain of events or the technical knowledge required to make a balanced, informed decision. Thank god you will never be a judge.


Flying Lawyer

Thank You for your posts!

On general note, I feel that any threads on this subject should be completely banned in the future. I continue to be sickened by the 'off with their heads brigade' who deem anyone a drunkard or guilty until the facts, (as they are presented in court, rather than the media) are known. I wish I led such a perfect life as you perfect individuals.

[DownIn3Green]

16024...

Well taken...you're tired of this thread, so good-bye...are you tired of PPrune yet?...I hope so...

Attacking me or any other poster is pretty ignorant on the "Prune", however, I'll accept your apology when you can quote the FAA "document" you reference in your post....

FAR Pt 135 pilots are held to the same standards as FAR Pt 121 pilots re: drug/alchol use...

You claim to have an ATPL, are freom the UK, and "joined" the Prune in 2002....But only 20 posts???

And BTW, I've flown over 24 yrs and have over 6,000 hrs Command time on International (read Transatlantic/Pacific) routes and everywhere in between on large transport jets.

But of course I started with a "commuter" (FAR 135) airline and never had time to put something "up my nose"...

[eliptic]

TDK

My standby starts at 4Z, do I:
1. call now and declare myself unfit,
2. wait and see if they call me and then tell them I'm unfit,
3. report if called and rely on caffeine and my collegue to get me through 4 sectors because sick leave (and unpaid dependancy leave as my manager will say this is) is part of the matrix my company say they will use for redundancy selection which they frequently refer to in various subtle and not so subtle ways. I've already had a week of unpaid dependancy leave this year in addition to two weeks unpaid paternity leave to support my partner.

You should be able to take that decision your self, if not maybe piloting is not your call.

Your private "setup" should never be aloud to interfere with other peoples safety.

If you are professional you know if you are fit to fly, period!

[Flying Lawyer]

Roger Sofarover

I continue to be sickened by the 'off with their heads brigade' who deem anyone a drunkard or guilty until the facts, (as they are presented in court, rather than the media) are known.

I agree. Unfortunately, it happens each time there's a press report that a pilot has been arrested on suspicion of committing an alcohol offence.


FSLF

My intention was to show that sometimes words have different meanings depends on how you want to interpret them.

Fair point.

However I do not agree with statements such as "being over the limit does not mean be drunk" implying fitness for duty.

Again, we're back to the problem of how people want to interpret fit and unfit.
In the last alcohol thread, I wrote: "There are always people who continue to equate unlawful to fly (exceeding the zero or virtually zero prescribed limit, even by a miniscule amount) with unfit to fly (impairment)."
You responded "That sentence closes the discussion on the thread. I do agree with you 100%."

It's impossible to have a productive discussion if different people are using the same word but meaning very different things by it.



.

[Finn47]

"Never been an alcohol related accident in passenger transport"? Wrong. For instance this crash here, with 25 fatalities:

ASN Aircraft accident Douglas C-47A-30-DK (DC-3C) OH-LCC Koivulahti

The investigation report is available on the internet, albeit in Finnish only, and I can post the link if anybody wants to check, but, according to autopsies performed by the Pathology Dpt of the University of Helsinki, the captain had over 0.2 % alcohol in his blood and the copilot 0.156 %. Therefore the captain was at 4 times the present drink & drive limit and the copilot at 3 times the limit.

[rodthesod]

John McG,

Excellent post, thank you. I concur with everything you said. We share the same sobriety date - '92. I lost my marriage, home, driving licence, senior management position, self-respect and was about to lose my class 1 medical. Thanks to our 'fellowship' I got the help I needed when I needed it most. My airline and CAA doctor knew what I was doing and gave me much support through some difficult times; so much so that I eventually made Head of TRTO again and retired a few years after my normal retirement date.
I now spend a happy and sober retirement in a beautiful place that now has AA. My daughter, who was 5 when I stopped drinking, was spared the horrors of growing up with a drunk for a dad and now visits for very happy holidays when she can spare the time from her medical studies.

Rod

[green granite]

"Never been an alcohol related accident in passenger transport"?

And this is just Australia:

A search of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau’s accident and incident database was conducted for all occurrences in which drugs or alcohol were recorded between 1 January 1975 and 31 March 2006. There were 36 drug and alcohol-related events (31 accidents and five incidents).

full article at: Aircraft accidents and avoidance - human factors - Intute: Science, Engineering and Technology scroll down to the relevant title and click on it.

[Flying Lawyer]

green granite

Yes, the findings of the Australian research were interesting.

The researchers examined and analysed the accident and incident database, looking at all occurrences in which drugs or alcohol was recorded between 1 January 1975 and 31 March 2006, to determine the prevalence and nature of drug and alcohol related accidents and incidents in Australian civil aviation.

The research found that, in just over 31 years, there were only 22 such instances.

I don't know how many flights were flown by Australian pilots in those 31 years but it must be hundreds of thousands - possibly millions.

It is, of course, essential to bear in mind:

• that not all those accidents and incidents (ie no accident) were caused either wholly or partly by pilot error;
  
  and, even if they were caused wholly or partly by pilot error,
• that it does it does not necessarily follow that alcohol played any part whatsoever in the error.

FL

[eliptic]

I don't know how many flights were flown by Australian pilots in those 31 years, but it must be hundreds of thousands and probably millions.

So, whatīs your point?

And how many incidents can you prove that alcohol are NOT involved?
(i refer to a earlier post regarding not controllable,, "combustibility of hydrocarbons" remember? if not SDflyer#66 )

By now we all know that you will defend the crew even if he/she ending up in emergency past out from alcoholic consumption!! but still not proved guilty.

Finally i donīt understand what you want to accomplice with you Juridical debate?
I think you have a hard time to understand that most people here donīt like the alco attitude,, lets discuss that instead of acual cases or/and proved guilty or not!

[green granite]

Indeed FL I posted it really to counter the claim that booze had never been involved in any accidents, as you say whether or not alcohol paid a part in any accident/incident can only be a matter for conjecture anyway. I would imagine that it would be impossible to prove that a pilot, say 1% over the limit, had an accident due to alcohol.

[al446]

At the risk of prolonging this thread needlessly I would like to return to what YHZChick said very early on in this thread -

I think we need a little more evidence that said pilot was actually over the limit than simply LHR security pulling him aside. They seem to have difficulty differentiating between the smell of cherry chewing gum and booze....

I accept that it later emerged that he failed a rudimentary breath test but I also have grave reservations about others ability to detect the smell of alcohol correctly. Here's why.

I am not a pilot or in any way involved in transport or operation of machinery but accept that, in my line of work a certain professional standard has to be maintained. With my collegues I make no secret of the degree that alcohol plays in my social life whilst not getting out of control. Following a change of management I was recently called to the office and told that my manager could smell alcohol on me and her fellow manager, who had been called in for the purpose, informed me that she could smell it heavily on me even though I was about 4 feet away. I went out of the office while they discussed it and asked 2 colleagues if I smelled of alcohol. After breathing into one guy's face ( a teatotaller) he said 'very,very slightly' and my other colleague said 'Not at all'. On my return to the office I was informed that they were sending me home and I told them of my findings. Lo and behold, no further action. I am sure that the fact that I am one of those who will not be bullied by managers has absolutely nothing to do with it.

We do not hear of how many FC have been reported by security and been cleared immediately. Newspapers do not run non-stories.

Further, there are several medical conditions which will not impair abilities but produce substances similar to alcohol. Ethyl alcohol is one of a group of substances which also include acetone and ketone. Acetone is used in nail polish etc and ketone is produced by ketosis, a breaking down of food which is more usually found in bulimics but not exclusively so, it may affect those with highly irregular appetites or gastric problems. The ketone thus produced may smell similar to alcohol. This may be exacerbated by incipient dental problems as cavities in the mouth, unreachable by brushing, can cause build up.

Finally there is mouth wash, there is only one comercially available m/w in UK that I am aware of that does not have an alcohol-based carrier. If you want an interesting time at security go to toilets just before passing through and run some Listerine round your mouth, your colleagues can run book on you getting stopped.

All the above in no way exonerates those who knowingly break the rules but may put it in a wider context.

Now awaiting incoming.

[Jofm5]

Finally there is mouth wash, there is only one comercially available m/w in UK that I am aware of that does not have an alcohol-based carrier. If you want an interesting time at security go to toilets just before passing through and run some Listerine round your mouth, your colleagues can run book on you getting stopped.

Not a wise thing to do , if you do get stopped and breathalised you run the risk of failure of the breath test - which is why if you get stopped whilst driving prior to the breath test you will be asked if you have used mouth wash in the prior 20 minutes. To confirm the non-presence of alcohol should you state you have used mouthwash requires a blood test - this all takes time and would mean you probably would not make the flight and cause disruption.

[Roger Sofarover]

To confirm the non-presence of alcohol should you state you have used mouthwash requires a blood test - this all takes time up to 2 weeks! and would mean you probably would not make the flight and cause disruption.

and in the process show security as the oxygen thieves that they are, when you said 'mouthwash, and it was 'mouthwash' and all because you display a degree of dental hygeine

[Will Fraser]

Roger

Your response to my several posts needs an answer. "by your logic" and then what amounts to a straw man argument. This thread concerns commercial piloting with passengers, public carriage, not motoring. I won't answer your attempt to drift the focus off my opinion, which I believe is quite clear. What is yours? Rather than attack my "logic" and attempt to portray it as somehow irrational, explain yours.

The breathalyzer? Due process? Fatigue? Your every attempt to deflect the debate from a simple discussion into areas that are wholly unrelated is not typical of your usual articulate and well reasoned posts.

Laws are arbitrary, they need to be or be liable to attack as too specific and burdensome.That is why there is one standard for everyone, there is no other way.
Bewailing them as too harsh is ridiculous. What should be done, slide the index by nationality? Body weight? Gender?

Would you routinely allow a fellow pilot on deck with you whose senses are at 98%? 50%? Without alcohol but hungover? I doubt it.

I'll restate. If legally demonstrated to be over limit at flight time, one's certificate should be revoked.

It's curious to me the howls of protest from the others who disagree. Drinking alcohol is a legal pursuit, anyone who thinks my opinion involves a moral judgment is wrong. In uniform walking on the a/c with any measurable alcohol in the blood is so stupid as to bring into question the offenders sanity. Drinking and commercial flight should be strictly exclusive of each other. Anyone who mixes them shouldn't be flying. Further, residual alcohol can be indicative of a problem. Coming off a drunk?
Alcohol impairs the senses and judgment in many ways. Metabolytes of alcohol in the blood can cause sensate and perception problems, absent alcohol itself.

Sad to say one can no longer place utter faith in the people upfront. Whether it was ever justified, lately there are other issues staining the performance and trustworthiness of those who fly and those who manage flight. Lack of training, experience, and judgment are enough to counter, who needs the perception of an alcohol problem in the mix?

[ea340]

Cumulonibus a few minor corrections to your post I was six when I became interested in flying and the Vanguard was still a paper airplane. As for flying a desk that will come soon enough after 40 years all good things must come to and end .As for rostering long haul and ultra long haul have very serious fatique issues with no simple fixes as anyone who has done it will atest . Short and medium haul have their own fatique issues. The point is no matter what causes the impairment you are impaired. In my humble opinion fatique is a much more serious impairment issue than alcohol ever was . Should you go flying with alcohol impairment of course not is it even a minor problem in western aviation no. Dont try to tell me at 3 am body clock on a 10 hour trip you are not fatique impaired I have been around to long. Try reading TDK mk2 post we have all been there and that includes you I suspect. After that read some of the NASA research

[John R]

Flying Lawyer, if you want a fight then you've got yourself one. I know that you have defended a pilot in the past who had been caught over the limit, so I understand this subject is rather close, but that really does not excuse your nauseatingly sycophantic attitude towards the profession.

The point I was trying to make, as you are fully aware, is that IF the breathalyser results show he was over the limit and IF that pilot had flown, the safety of that flight would have been jeopardised. In exactly the same way that flight safety is jeopardised by fatigued crew. That's right, I realise that's a problem too.

What is quite clear from this thread (and others) is that:

a) a number of professional pilots who post on this forum have a drink problem
b) they believe, for whatever reason, that this is not incompatible with their job
c) they do not believe it makes a difference to their flying ability to the extent that flight safety is compromised (increased confidence being associated with drinking)
d) they do not like the fact that passengers and 'outsiders' realise this
e) this winds them up to the extent that they will drag everything from fatigue and ludicrous comparisons with drunk-drivers (nb: drink-driving is also illegal!) into the debate as a defence.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

JOHN McGHIE

Stunningly articulate penetrating post that belies the affliction that dogs many of us - that of ADDICTION.

I am not a sauce monkey but I am a weed slave and your post strikes a deep cord for me.