Pilot caught smelling of alcohol at LHR
Many thanks for all of your kind comments!
I just wanted to add a public note thanking those many PPRuNes who sent kind messages of support, both publicly and via PM. I am wading through the PMs as we speak!
For the record, I have always been strongly opposed to drink-driving/flying. During 26 years of destructive drinking, I was tested many time (Australia was one of the first countries to get Random Breath Testing) and never was found to be over the limit. With the benefit of hindsight, I remain surprised that my efforts to control my drinking succeeded... The alcoholics amongst us will understand how desperate those efforts sometimes were
I am not a pilot (well... gliders, a long time ago) but I clearly understood that alcohol has an increasing effect with increasing cabin altitude. While still a student pilot, I was fortunate to hear a hair-raising story from a pair of pilots in a light aircraft after a heavy night who felt fine on the ground, but discovered they were seriously impaired at 10,000 feet. I am sure this information is part of the training for anyone who rises to ATPL level?
I suggest that the impaired judgement that is an inevitable result of many years of excessive alcohol consumption, is perhaps a more important reason to avoid alcohol on the flight deck than the well-understood affects on reaction times and concentration.
Knowing alcoholics as I do, I could suggest that the only rule that will work for alcoholics is "0" and "Always". If an alcoholic knows the limit is "none" and that he will be tested on every flight, he will find a way to not drink. Sadly, that "way" will probably include prescription medication.
If the aircraft carries a breathalyzer, and the Captain and First Office are required to test each other as part of their preparation for every flight, you won't have people affected by alcohol at the controls. Sadly, your alcoholic crew-members will probably be popping pills in the toilet.
I guess that we are all waiting for science to come up with a "Fitness Tester" that would detect no only chemical ingestion but also fatigue.
Many thanks all, for your kind words.
For the record, I have always been strongly opposed to drink-driving/flying. During 26 years of destructive drinking, I was tested many time (Australia was one of the first countries to get Random Breath Testing) and never was found to be over the limit. With the benefit of hindsight, I remain surprised that my efforts to control my drinking succeeded... The alcoholics amongst us will understand how desperate those efforts sometimes were
I am not a pilot (well... gliders, a long time ago) but I clearly understood that alcohol has an increasing effect with increasing cabin altitude. While still a student pilot, I was fortunate to hear a hair-raising story from a pair of pilots in a light aircraft after a heavy night who felt fine on the ground, but discovered they were seriously impaired at 10,000 feet. I am sure this information is part of the training for anyone who rises to ATPL level?
I suggest that the impaired judgement that is an inevitable result of many years of excessive alcohol consumption, is perhaps a more important reason to avoid alcohol on the flight deck than the well-understood affects on reaction times and concentration.
Knowing alcoholics as I do, I could suggest that the only rule that will work for alcoholics is "0" and "Always". If an alcoholic knows the limit is "none" and that he will be tested on every flight, he will find a way to not drink. Sadly, that "way" will probably include prescription medication.
If the aircraft carries a breathalyzer, and the Captain and First Office are required to test each other as part of their preparation for every flight, you won't have people affected by alcohol at the controls. Sadly, your alcoholic crew-members will probably be popping pills in the toilet.
I guess that we are all waiting for science to come up with a "Fitness Tester" that would detect no only chemical ingestion but also fatigue.
Many thanks all, for your kind words.
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"Never been an alcohol related accident in passenger transport"?
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As well
I drink Clausthaler when not drinking real ale. Tis 0.05 ABV (which in the UK is officially alcohol free), but after 3 or 4 my breath can smell as if I've been drinking 5.0ABV real ale
I wonder why ?
I wonder why ?
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I am quite shore that this problem soon is history, regards to researches there is reliable equipment to meter alco levels easy and accurate
“There isn’t a possibility that these (more advanced alcohol measurers) would react to acetone,” said Bengt Svensson, spokesman for The National Police Board, adding that he sees no risk for drunks to claim fasting as an excuse when pulled over.
“There isn’t a possibility that these (more advanced alcohol measurers) would react to acetone,” said Bengt Svensson, spokesman for The National Police Board, adding that he sees no risk for drunks to claim fasting as an excuse when pulled over.
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O'Doul's (0.5%) is all I drink when contemplating riding a motorcycle or flying an aircraft. The heck with the regs, I've got my own standards and will-to-live.
As to punishment: IMO anyone found guilty of violating this regulation, after due process etc etc, should be fired by his employer immediately for cause. Then the transgressor will find out what other company is willing to hire him or her with such a record. Perhaps, after time has passed and a person has shown evidence of true reform, a commercial operator will take the person on. Then again perhaps not, the potential liability of doing so being what it is (commercial and legal, here in the U.S. at least).
Not ALL punishments are meted out by regulatory authorities; sometimes the marketplace plays an equally important role.
How would you feel if I had a couple stiff drinks before flying the VOR-A into Brown just as you're on the localizer in a 737 heading for RWY 27 at Lindbergh?
As to punishment: IMO anyone found guilty of violating this regulation, after due process etc etc, should be fired by his employer immediately for cause. Then the transgressor will find out what other company is willing to hire him or her with such a record. Perhaps, after time has passed and a person has shown evidence of true reform, a commercial operator will take the person on. Then again perhaps not, the potential liability of doing so being what it is (commercial and legal, here in the U.S. at least).
Not ALL punishments are meted out by regulatory authorities; sometimes the marketplace plays an equally important role.
How would you feel if I had a couple stiff drinks before flying the VOR-A into Brown just as you're on the localizer in a 737 heading for RWY 27 at Lindbergh?
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JohnR
If the British Sun newspaper claim he was 4x the limit on the field test is confirmed then I wouldn't mind if my family had been on the flight. 4x almost nothing is still almost nothing.
Over the limit is illegal and if the guy broke the law he deserves to be punished, but over the limit ain't the same as unsafe. It depends on the BAC level.
I can see why you'd be worried.
John_R post in the Spotters forum
If the British Sun newspaper claim he was 4x the limit on the field test is confirmed then I wouldn't mind if my family had been on the flight. 4x almost nothing is still almost nothing.
Over the limit is illegal and if the guy broke the law he deserves to be punished, but over the limit ain't the same as unsafe. It depends on the BAC level.
I can see why you'd be worried.
John_R post in the Spotters forum
I recently flew with Ryanair. During the cruise, the captain left the flight deck to pay a visit. On his way back (not a long walk, admittedly), he stopped to speak to the cabin crew.
I wondered if airlines have a policy for flight crew (I'm only talking about two pilot crews on short-haul flights like this one) leaving the flight deck during flight?
Or is it at the discretion of the captain? Could there not have been a problem if the F/O had been inexperienced and unable to handle a situation on his/her own during his absence?
I wondered if airlines have a policy for flight crew (I'm only talking about two pilot crews on short-haul flights like this one) leaving the flight deck during flight?
Or is it at the discretion of the captain? Could there not have been a problem if the F/O had been inexperienced and unable to handle a situation on his/her own during his absence?
Last edited by Bronx; 24th May 2009 at 21:07.
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wouldn't mind if my family had been on the flight. 4x almost nothing is still almost nothing.
"Even after complete elimination of all of the alcohol in the body, there are undesirable effects-hangover-that can last 48 to 72 hours following the last drink."
"Pilots have shown impairment in their ability to fly an ILS approach or to fly IFR, and even to perform routine VFR flight tasks while under the influence of alcohol, regardless of individual flying experience."
"The number of serious errors committed by pilots dramatically increases at or above concentrations of 0.04% blood alcohol. This is not to say that problems don't occur below this value. Some studies have shown decrements in pilot performance with blood alcohol concentrations as low as the 0.025%."
You are in control
"Flying, while fun and exciting, is a precise, demanding, and unforgiving endeavor. Any factor that impairs the pilot's ability to perform the required tasks during the operation of an aircraft is an invitation for disaster."
The use of alcohol is a significant self-imposed stress factor that should be eliminated from the cockpit. The ability to do so is strictly within the pilot's control.
Before you decide to put you family on that plane you should let them get some update
Alcohol and its Effect on Pilots
Person Of Interest
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SD...Give us a break...
You claim to have your own limits but still drink O'Douls which could put you over...
If you are that responsible...why not Coke, Pepsi or OJ before flying????
You claim to have your own limits but still drink O'Douls which could put you over...
If you are that responsible...why not Coke, Pepsi or OJ before flying????
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If you are that responsible...why not Coke, Pepsi or OJ before flying????
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Quick question Flying Lawyer,
I cannot find a provision in The Railway And Transport Safety Act for refusal to provide an evidential specimen, whereas the RTA 7(6) specifies that you are "guilty of an offence". Is there an equivalent offence for the R&TS and what are the penalties.
Perhaps those who know they are "banged to rights" may well be better taking this route, hoping to avoid a custodial.
I cannot find a provision in The Railway And Transport Safety Act for refusal to provide an evidential specimen, whereas the RTA 7(6) specifies that you are "guilty of an offence". Is there an equivalent offence for the R&TS and what are the penalties.
Perhaps those who know they are "banged to rights" may well be better taking this route, hoping to avoid a custodial.
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Section 96 of the RTSA 2003 brings in the relevant sections of the RTA 1988 with modification. I'll leave Flying Lawyer to provide the legally correct interpretation of the law but the intention of Section 96 is to block that route in the same way that it is blocked for drink driving offences.
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I really do have to grin at all this...the AA clown was tested over the limit...full stop.
Therefore he will face charges.
As it should be...period.
All the rest of the scenarios of my wife ran off with the chauffeur and screwed the pooch, it totally without merit.
We don't care.
Over the limit, and proved....out the door.
Therefore, younger guys move up the seniority list.\IE:...have another belt, Captain, Sir!.
Done.
Therefore he will face charges.
As it should be...period.
All the rest of the scenarios of my wife ran off with the chauffeur and screwed the pooch, it totally without merit.
We don't care.
Over the limit, and proved....out the door.
Therefore, younger guys move up the seniority list.\IE:...have another belt, Captain, Sir!.
Done.
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411A I would wait for the blood test to come in . I know of one individual who blow over the blood test confirmed he was at basicly zero. In his case about 3 weeks to get results a long 3 weeks . This individual never made the press .There are now 2 cases will be interesting to see the results . Both of whom have been convicted in the press.
