Pablo Mason (Spelled M.A.S.O.N) Tribunal
Join Date: Jul 2002
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You gentlemen sit on regulation books and never bend any rules.
A rule is a rule - if it can be bent it is guidance
You are so perfect in observing the law, makes me sick.
What is so wrong about observing the law? It is the broad basis of a decent society
A rule is a rule - if it can be bent it is guidance
You are so perfect in observing the law, makes me sick.
What is so wrong about observing the law? It is the broad basis of a decent society
Long before 9/11 but well into the Hi-jack era, flying a 707 from the Middle East, wandered back into the cabin and invited a shapely, blonde, female First Class pax. to go up to the flight deck and brighten up the day for the crew.
The male pax in front asked if he could also visit the Flt. deck. He was dark haired, of swarthy complexion, apparently of Arabic persuasion. I adv. that flt. deck visits weren't possible. he pointed out that I had just invited the lady ahead of him, I suggested that it might be possible when I returned, and later asked him to follow me. Just before entering the flt. deck I asked him if he was armed, he retorted that I hadn't asked the blonde.
Later, on the flt. deck I turned to him and asked where he was from, I'm a Palestinian Arab he answered. He then said, but of course we're not all terrorists !
I still have nightmares making up the Press headlines !
You canna be tooo carrrrreful !!!
The male pax in front asked if he could also visit the Flt. deck. He was dark haired, of swarthy complexion, apparently of Arabic persuasion. I adv. that flt. deck visits weren't possible. he pointed out that I had just invited the lady ahead of him, I suggested that it might be possible when I returned, and later asked him to follow me. Just before entering the flt. deck I asked him if he was armed, he retorted that I hadn't asked the blonde.
Later, on the flt. deck I turned to him and asked where he was from, I'm a Palestinian Arab he answered. He then said, but of course we're not all terrorists !
I still have nightmares making up the Press headlines !
You canna be tooo carrrrreful !!!
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"As a young FO I regularly flew with one such "character". He was brought to heel when a deputation of FOs took a letter signed by every FO on the fleet to management. The aeronautical equivalent of the black spot sorted the problem. A much chastened captain approached us individually and apologised. Like most I was happy to accept, some gave him their true opinions of him and one met him in the car park. Captain was off sick for 5 weeks after that chat."
Spooky.
Spooky.
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I'm afraid it really is as simple as "it's their trainset". If your, or my, employer wants you to fly the jet everywhere with 10 degrees left wing down, dressed as Ronald McDonald, whilst singing the Yellow Rose of Texas on the PA, and it doesn't contravene any CAA rules....then I'm afraid that's how it's got to be.
Having spoken to a few of our F/O's about this case, I'm afraid the gentleman concerned seems to have lost all sympathy when he tried to shift the blame onto his co-pilot. What ever happened taking responsibility for your own actions?
BTW, anyone know why he chooses not to call himself "Paul" ???
Having spoken to a few of our F/O's about this case, I'm afraid the gentleman concerned seems to have lost all sympathy when he tried to shift the blame onto his co-pilot. What ever happened taking responsibility for your own actions?
BTW, anyone know why he chooses not to call himself "Paul" ???
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"I think it perhaps a little simplistic to compare Mr Masson with Bud Holland. Holland had a record of endangering aircraft and flying them outside their envelopes. Are you saying that Mr Masson has such a record? Or is he just a good pilot who has issues with authority stupidly used? I don't know, I wasn't there, and I don't know him.
Long before 911 I believed that all public transport aircraft should have lockable cockpit doors, and that was while my children and I enjoyed several very fine cockpit visits. Was Mr Masson's infringement a real risk to safety or just an excuse to get rid of an inconvenient annoyance?
Would I rather fly with a Masson or a 3,000 hr newly promoted captain who sticks rigidly to the rules but maybe is untested in adversity? I don't really know."
Long before 911 I believed that all public transport aircraft should have lockable cockpit doors, and that was while my children and I enjoyed several very fine cockpit visits. Was Mr Masson's infringement a real risk to safety or just an excuse to get rid of an inconvenient annoyance?
Would I rather fly with a Masson or a 3,000 hr newly promoted captain who sticks rigidly to the rules but maybe is untested in adversity? I don't really know."
Stripping in public, deliberately breaking SOPs and rules, and, from the gist of it, acting as someone who doesn't think rules should apply to him. I know who I would rather drink with (but probably for just one session, the anecdotes tend to repeat with these types) and I know who I would rather fly with. They would not be the same.
ChrisVJ
You cannot be a Pilot
You cannot be a Captain
One stereotype character for Pilots whether Civilian or Military is Integrity (the only time it ever tends to lapse is when we regress into children on this forum - a useful tool I might add). Notice the lack of Pablo supporters since he has been quoted saying that about his FO. I may further add that since he has taken that tac for his defence, he has pretty much assured himself 100% that no Chief Pilot on the planet will ever give him a job again.
Even if it was the idea of the FO to bring Mr Savage on the FD, it would have had to have been the Captain who said 'Yes'. Once the Captain has said that, then any subsequent trouble is on his shoulders and his alone. We almost all subscribe to the principle of 'The Buck Stops Here!' It seems Paul has not.
Yes!
I Do.
Go to a solicitor and he says, "Well, that's interesting, apparently your FO, who was part and party, (though maybe not quite as much so,) did not even get a reprimand, I think you've got yourself a case here, my son."
Of course you would all turn round and say, "Not on your life, I wouldn't sully my name with such a tactic." as you watch you life savings and what remains of your career dribble away.
Of course you would all turn round and say, "Not on your life, I wouldn't sully my name with such a tactic." as you watch you life savings and what remains of your career dribble away.
You cannot be a Captain
One stereotype character for Pilots whether Civilian or Military is Integrity (the only time it ever tends to lapse is when we regress into children on this forum - a useful tool I might add). Notice the lack of Pablo supporters since he has been quoted saying that about his FO. I may further add that since he has taken that tac for his defence, he has pretty much assured himself 100% that no Chief Pilot on the planet will ever give him a job again.
Even if it was the idea of the FO to bring Mr Savage on the FD, it would have had to have been the Captain who said 'Yes'. Once the Captain has said that, then any subsequent trouble is on his shoulders and his alone. We almost all subscribe to the principle of 'The Buck Stops Here!' It seems Paul has not.
I think it perhaps a little simplistic to compare Mr Masson with Bud Holland. Holland had a record of endangering aircraft and flying them outside their envelopes. Are you saying that Mr Masson has such a record?
and I don't know him.
People are saying that he had such a record, including crashing an aircraft in the RAF by flying outside the envelope.
I wonder what people say about you Freehills
AvMan
A little flippant. Yes people are saying
They have also provided the link to the accident report concerned.
A little flippant. Yes people are saying
he had such a record, including crashing an aircraft in the RAF by flying outside the envelope.
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2 days ago one of our FOs, I have flown with him several times, and his partner got on board to go Spain; we saw them walking out of departures and nabbed a couple of good seats for them.
When they were on board he brought his missus up front to see the "office"; she hadn't had the opportunity before to see visit his place of work.
In our company we are allowed by the Ops Manual to offer the flightdeck seats to passengers travelling on staff tickets accompanied by the staff member.
So I asked the FO if they were travelling on staff tickets: he had bought the tickets from the website, hence I had to apologise and say that I would have let his missus in the flightdeck but wasn't allowed as they were on regular tickets.
The FO certainly isn't a security risk, nor is his missus, but the rules are quite clear, hence I don't have any discretion to modify them.
Unless Pablo can produce a procedural flaw in the process of his case, he will be hard pressed to achieve a result in his favour. If he does gain a verdict in his favour it is extremely unlikely that the company would reinstate him.
When they were on board he brought his missus up front to see the "office"; she hadn't had the opportunity before to see visit his place of work.
In our company we are allowed by the Ops Manual to offer the flightdeck seats to passengers travelling on staff tickets accompanied by the staff member.
So I asked the FO if they were travelling on staff tickets: he had bought the tickets from the website, hence I had to apologise and say that I would have let his missus in the flightdeck but wasn't allowed as they were on regular tickets.
The FO certainly isn't a security risk, nor is his missus, but the rules are quite clear, hence I don't have any discretion to modify them.
Unless Pablo can produce a procedural flaw in the process of his case, he will be hard pressed to achieve a result in his favour. If he does gain a verdict in his favour it is extremely unlikely that the company would reinstate him.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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C'mon now Avman, people who know him, served on the same squadron as him, at the time, who have quoted the official report of the incident say that his Navigator saved them both when Mason grossly mishandled the aircraft, isn't that enough?
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PM wrote about his crash in the Tornado in his own book and so it is very much in the public domain. It is a long time since i read the book, but IIRC he did go outside the SOPs as they then were, because he believed that you can't train for war using higher peacetime limits. (the crash was shortly after the first bout of unpleasantness). There is a world of difference between the flying environments of a Tornado pilot and an airline pilot. Most of the ex-fast jet pilots I know are superb commercial pilots, their CRM is good and their handling (once they get used to the fact that a wing over into a max rate descent spills the gin down the back) is excellent. Almost all of them find flying straight and level for hours with a change of ATC agency the most exciting thing happening is boring, and so do I. But I have not met another one like PM since the early days of my career.
No company fires a pilot without very good reasons and being VERY sure of it's legal rights. Getting a new pilot on line costs a heck of a lot of money, even if they arrive with all the relevant ratings, I see the bills for ours, to get rid of one normally means that the full disciplinary procedure has been followed, complete with ensuring that the person involved has had legal/union representation at all times. Thankfully I have had to do it only once and it was horrible. In the last 20 years of flying I have only seen it three times, and heard of it comparitively rarely. With the numbers of us working in the UK that is a mighty big clue as to how seriously companies take the procedure and the fact that most pilots realise that being sacked makes getting a new job difficult, and a tribunal makes getting a new job almost impossible.
I wonder if PM is following this line as he knows that his chances of employment with any other operator are slim and this is a way of generating some cash from the publicity. Maybe its' time he went back to his pet shop and presenting for TV
No company fires a pilot without very good reasons and being VERY sure of it's legal rights. Getting a new pilot on line costs a heck of a lot of money, even if they arrive with all the relevant ratings, I see the bills for ours, to get rid of one normally means that the full disciplinary procedure has been followed, complete with ensuring that the person involved has had legal/union representation at all times. Thankfully I have had to do it only once and it was horrible. In the last 20 years of flying I have only seen it three times, and heard of it comparitively rarely. With the numbers of us working in the UK that is a mighty big clue as to how seriously companies take the procedure and the fact that most pilots realise that being sacked makes getting a new job difficult, and a tribunal makes getting a new job almost impossible.
I wonder if PM is following this line as he knows that his chances of employment with any other operator are slim and this is a way of generating some cash from the publicity. Maybe its' time he went back to his pet shop and presenting for TV
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Having sat as a lay member on Tribunals I can see PM having difficulty in dodging this one.
Tribunals are not the place to raise issues over the merits of company policy, but only if that policy was binding and followed.
Standard Operating Procedures are required to be followed, this was not followed nor was it a situation [such as an emergency] where it was obvious to a clueless bystander that this deviation was indeed necessary.
The case will be focused on if the statutory grievance procedures were followed.
Was PM given prior notice before being called into a meeting.
Did he receive written communication following this.
Was he offered an appeal to be heard by a more senior member of management?
Was Pablo allowed a witness at both these meetings?
Unfortunately whether the passenger was a threat or not is extremely unlikely to be considered by the panel.
Breach of the essential terms of contract
Dismissed- correct procedure?
Tribunals are not the place to raise issues over the merits of company policy, but only if that policy was binding and followed.
Standard Operating Procedures are required to be followed, this was not followed nor was it a situation [such as an emergency] where it was obvious to a clueless bystander that this deviation was indeed necessary.
The case will be focused on if the statutory grievance procedures were followed.
Was PM given prior notice before being called into a meeting.
Did he receive written communication following this.
Was he offered an appeal to be heard by a more senior member of management?
Was Pablo allowed a witness at both these meetings?
Unfortunately whether the passenger was a threat or not is extremely unlikely to be considered by the panel.
Breach of the essential terms of contract
Dismissed- correct procedure?
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Breaking the rules or adjusting them to your purposes is one thing, doing it with a plane full of paying passengers is quite another. The fact that it was a charter is irrelevant.
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david.craig has hit the nail on the head.
You can debate the perceived rights and wrongs of what PM did until the cows home, but the Tribunal will examine the facts, the procedures, both disciplinary and from the Ops Manual, and consider whether they were followed or breached.
End of.
You can debate the perceived rights and wrongs of what PM did until the cows home, but the Tribunal will examine the facts, the procedures, both disciplinary and from the Ops Manual, and consider whether they were followed or breached.
End of.
Mach 3
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M. Mouse,
I never said how many stripes I had at the time of the aforementioned incident did I?
As for the incident to which you refer, I pose the question: Why should I feel more comfortable flying with a "Muslim FO" in the right seat than my father in the jump seat?
How does your superior judgement deal with that? Isn't it the "sleepers" we should be wary of? Hasn't the precedent already been set by the medical community and its involvement with terrorism?
I wonder if statistically the chance of a hijack from within the flightdeck is now greater than that from without?
Courtesy of Turkish Airways, we now know that that door is such an impediment to my survival in a crash I'm surprised we're not all arguing for its removal anyway?
Hazard of the job is it?
This prohibition does nothing for us.
And if the law is an ass, it tends to result in assinine behaviour, on both sides of the fence.
God forbid a parking warden ever accosts you for that illegal stop...
Testimony to the ever encroaching power of our state...
Reminds me of Nazi Germany.
All tongue-in-cheek of course.
I never said how many stripes I had at the time of the aforementioned incident did I?
As for the incident to which you refer, I pose the question: Why should I feel more comfortable flying with a "Muslim FO" in the right seat than my father in the jump seat?
How does your superior judgement deal with that? Isn't it the "sleepers" we should be wary of? Hasn't the precedent already been set by the medical community and its involvement with terrorism?
I wonder if statistically the chance of a hijack from within the flightdeck is now greater than that from without?
Courtesy of Turkish Airways, we now know that that door is such an impediment to my survival in a crash I'm surprised we're not all arguing for its removal anyway?
Hazard of the job is it?
This prohibition does nothing for us.
And if the law is an ass, it tends to result in assinine behaviour, on both sides of the fence.
God forbid a parking warden ever accosts you for that illegal stop...
Testimony to the ever encroaching power of our state...
Reminds me of Nazi Germany.
All tongue-in-cheek of course.
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By any reasonable assesment what he did carried no risk . . . . but, he bust the rules and knew he was doing so (no matter whose idea he now says it was)
In another airline that Slim is familiar with, we not so long ago had a Capt demoted for several months and a contract F/O dismissed (not even required really, just not renewed/rostered is enough ) although he was sensibly IMHO reinstated.
This was for a similar "incident"
I believe this was probably a more measured response from a company many on here would be quick to criticise for their "personnel handling".
In Capt Masson's case I have the distinct feeling that they wanted rid of the guy anyhow, and he handed them the excuse they needed on a plate.
Shot himself in the foot, unfortunately for him.
Case dismissed I would hazard.
In another airline that Slim is familiar with, we not so long ago had a Capt demoted for several months and a contract F/O dismissed (not even required really, just not renewed/rostered is enough ) although he was sensibly IMHO reinstated.
This was for a similar "incident"
I believe this was probably a more measured response from a company many on here would be quick to criticise for their "personnel handling".
In Capt Masson's case I have the distinct feeling that they wanted rid of the guy anyhow, and he handed them the excuse they needed on a plate.
Shot himself in the foot, unfortunately for him.
Case dismissed I would hazard.
PM wrote about his crash in the Tornado in his own book and so it is very much in the public domain. It is a long time since i read the book, but IIRC he did go outside the SOPs as they then were, because he believed that you can't train for war using higher peacetime limits. (the crash was shortly after the first bout of unpleasantness)
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No company fires a pilot without very good reasons and being VERY sure of it's legal rights.
In PM´s case there are reasons and I´m sure he won´t win. I supported him in the first thread, but even if it was the solicitors idea (which I´m convinced it was) to bring the F/O into the game, I hate people that don´t stand for their faults and mistakes. If I´d be PM I`d try everything to get my job back, but definately NOT on somebody elses cost.
Nonwithstanding, the cockpit rules (and many others) are stupid to stay polite. Especially on a full private charter.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Out of interest - does anyone know the actual sequence of events and discussions prior to to the event? ie did PM suddenly announce out of the blue to the Purser "get Savage up here" or did an actual discussion about the matter take place before a mutually agreeable decision was made? If the latter were to be the case then I would suggest there would be an element of cuplbablity wrt the FO. However, If the discussion went "No absolutely not I disagree" but PM allowed the visit to go ahead anyway then it is a completly different matter.
Ps. and how exactly would the FO have stopped it? -a real tricky situation which a Capt should NEVER place ANY member of his crew in.
It seems there are those here who some personal issues against PM and although a colourful character (a point not in dispute!) I have only read of one flying issue / accident in a long career. There seems to have been very little criticism against his commercial flying or CRM skills (other than the savage incident). As far as can gather it his exploits out of the flight deck that seems to have so many peoples backs up.
Ps. and how exactly would the FO have stopped it? -a real tricky situation which a Capt should NEVER place ANY member of his crew in.
It seems there are those here who some personal issues against PM and although a colourful character (a point not in dispute!) I have only read of one flying issue / accident in a long career. There seems to have been very little criticism against his commercial flying or CRM skills (other than the savage incident). As far as can gather it his exploits out of the flight deck that seems to have so many peoples backs up.