Pablo Mason (Spelled M.A.S.O.N) Tribunal
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Speaking as a humble SLF with an interest in surviving my flight, this chap strikes me as being NOT the kind of pilot I want to be sitting behind.
In my own experience, someone who consistently bends, 'misinterprets' or simply breaks rules, will inevitably go too far one day and break a rule that will leave me wishing I'd chosen a different airline.
Having the courage to break a rule in an emergency or a highly unusual situation is not at all the same as breaking a rule out of a sense of 'fun' or a suppressed anger at having to follow other people's rules. It takes maturity to judge when it is appropriate to behave playfully and when it is not.
A system may be irksome or downright silly, in which case campaigning for change, with patience and coherent argument, is probably necessary. The important fact is that these channels ARE open to most of us, if we have the will and stamina to use them. Expressing irritation with a system by acting out your emotions is rarely effective at advancing your cause.
If the flying community wants to have silly restrictions removed, acting in silly ways simply suggests to the world that there really IS a need to control you. How do you think this man's actions appear to the public, who just want to reach their destination safely? As a member of that public, I see a buffoon in a twit moustache, who sees himself above the rules...someone who I tend to suspect of having the clinical symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I think the airline has done the paying public a favour.
Incidentally, I'm amused to notice how there seems to be general assumption that, because Robbie Savage is white, he could be safely counted out as an Islamic threat. Quite a proportion of British Muslims are converts and as white as Mr. Savage. I wonder if Pablo satisfied himself on this possibility before he issued his generous invitation?
In my own experience, someone who consistently bends, 'misinterprets' or simply breaks rules, will inevitably go too far one day and break a rule that will leave me wishing I'd chosen a different airline.
Having the courage to break a rule in an emergency or a highly unusual situation is not at all the same as breaking a rule out of a sense of 'fun' or a suppressed anger at having to follow other people's rules. It takes maturity to judge when it is appropriate to behave playfully and when it is not.
A system may be irksome or downright silly, in which case campaigning for change, with patience and coherent argument, is probably necessary. The important fact is that these channels ARE open to most of us, if we have the will and stamina to use them. Expressing irritation with a system by acting out your emotions is rarely effective at advancing your cause.
If the flying community wants to have silly restrictions removed, acting in silly ways simply suggests to the world that there really IS a need to control you. How do you think this man's actions appear to the public, who just want to reach their destination safely? As a member of that public, I see a buffoon in a twit moustache, who sees himself above the rules...someone who I tend to suspect of having the clinical symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I think the airline has done the paying public a favour.
Incidentally, I'm amused to notice how there seems to be general assumption that, because Robbie Savage is white, he could be safely counted out as an Islamic threat. Quite a proportion of British Muslims are converts and as white as Mr. Savage. I wonder if Pablo satisfied himself on this possibility before he issued his generous invitation?
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I fly for a major european national carrier and have jumseated a lot all over Europe: Germany, Portugal, Spain, Italy... In my airline it's the commanders decision to accept cockpit jumps. A lot of my colleagues try to avoid layovers in the UK, because everything is so complicated from security to the antique airports such as the prehistoric guiding system at Manchester ( but this is got nothing to do with Pablo)... Anyway to summ up, I hope he wins the case and if the commander for example wants to take his brother in the flight deck then so be it.
There you go, lets bring back common sense to UK airports.
There you go, lets bring back common sense to UK airports.
Anyway to summ up, I hope he wins the case and if the commander for example wants to take his brother in the flight deck then so be it.
I really hope he does not win. We have had the publicity we need for stupid rules concerning security. Oh and the decision to take your brother in the front just depends on who your brother is right. Most of the recent madaxe murderers of our time including Osama Bin Laden are brothers to somebody.
You say that you and your colleagues try and avoid the UK. I assume that is because the security at the Airports is an arse and that there are certain rules you would have to comply with that are a little tedious. But you would comply wouldn't you? PM did not comply, simple.
Overthewing
As self confessed SLF, that is a top post on this subject
Employment Tribunals
ChrisVJ
Quote:
Go to a solicitor and he says, "Well, that's interesting, apparently your FO, who was part and party, (though maybe not quite as much so,) did not even get a reprimand, I think you've got yourself a case here, my son."
Of course you would all turn round and say, "Not on your life, I wouldn't sully my name with such a tactic." as you watch you life savings and what remains of your career dribble away.
You cannot be a Pilot
You cannot be a Captain
Maybe, maybe not, but ChrisVJ seems to have a better grasp of how Employment Tribunals work than most people on this thread.
Quote:
Go to a solicitor and he says, "Well, that's interesting, apparently your FO, who was part and party, (though maybe not quite as much so,) did not even get a reprimand, I think you've got yourself a case here, my son."
Of course you would all turn round and say, "Not on your life, I wouldn't sully my name with such a tactic." as you watch you life savings and what remains of your career dribble away.
You cannot be a Pilot
You cannot be a Captain
Maybe, maybe not, but ChrisVJ seems to have a better grasp of how Employment Tribunals work than most people on this thread.
sua cuique voluptas
Snapper
He may well know more about Employment Tribunals, but I did speak about Integrity. I would not sell my soul to the Devil for a couple of hundred K.
Ratita
Ok, I will play your game, now take out the 'brother of Osama bin Laden bit' and re-read the post, in particular my first line under the quote from you.
Edited to say
Well Snapper it appears ChrisVJ doesn't know more about Tribunals eh! In the mean time PM has not only lost the case, but with his move on the FO, he has also sacrificed his Integrity and ostracized himself from his peers and made himself unemployable. PM hasn't just lost, he has really lost.
Rule 1 stick to what you are good at. Pilots fly, Barristers do law. If Pablo thought he was going to win he would have had the best brief in London as at the win costs would have been given to MyTravel. But he obviously thought he wasn't going to win, so as said many pages ago, it was a publicity stunt. New book, TV programs soon?
He may well know more about Employment Tribunals, but I did speak about Integrity. I would not sell my soul to the Devil for a couple of hundred K.
Ratita
Ok, I will play your game, now take out the 'brother of Osama bin Laden bit' and re-read the post, in particular my first line under the quote from you.
Edited to say
Well Snapper it appears ChrisVJ doesn't know more about Tribunals eh! In the mean time PM has not only lost the case, but with his move on the FO, he has also sacrificed his Integrity and ostracized himself from his peers and made himself unemployable. PM hasn't just lost, he has really lost.
The pilot, who represented himself during the proceedings, told the media outside the tribunal building that he had not been surprised by the ruling.
He said: "I have been beaten in a very fair tribunal by an excellent barrister and I have no complaints at all about the way in which I have been treated.
"Unfortunately my wings were clipped and I think I will have to walk the rest of the way."
He said: "I have been beaten in a very fair tribunal by an excellent barrister and I have no complaints at all about the way in which I have been treated.
"Unfortunately my wings were clipped and I think I will have to walk the rest of the way."
Last edited by Roger Sofarover; 19th Mar 2009 at 15:59.
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I'm terribly sorry if I upset anyone; one of the most decent people I've ever worked with ( designing hearing aids ! ) was an Iranian - 'Persian' is the much preferred term - called Ali, when I chatted with him about his career, it turned out he was an RPG team commander...
I'm not racist, though could relate a few stories about export customers - there are plenty of all white plonkers around !
I don't know the details of Pablo's stuffing a Tornado, but there are certain systems on that aircraft which spring to mind re. low level rolling which can catch out all but the best Test pilots.
Getting back to Pablo, it's not as if he barrel-rolled the thing over a city, is it ?!
Comparing him to that egocentric idiot in a B-52 is an insult to ALL flyers - if he hadn't sorted it out for himself, as is usual taking good people with him - he should have been cabled on for an airbrake.
I'm not racist, though could relate a few stories about export customers - there are plenty of all white plonkers around !
I don't know the details of Pablo's stuffing a Tornado, but there are certain systems on that aircraft which spring to mind re. low level rolling which can catch out all but the best Test pilots.
Getting back to Pablo, it's not as if he barrel-rolled the thing over a city, is it ?!
Comparing him to that egocentric idiot in a B-52 is an insult to ALL flyers - if he hadn't sorted it out for himself, as is usual taking good people with him - he should have been cabled on for an airbrake.
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Adios, Pablo!
Yes, that is the correct verdict.
But he was quite magnanimous in his defeat, and will probably go on to make millions in his role as a speaker.
And 'overthewing' your commentary was excellent. You're not the barrister acting for MyTravel/Thos Cook are you?
But he was quite magnanimous in his defeat, and will probably go on to make millions in his role as a speaker.
And 'overthewing' your commentary was excellent. You're not the barrister acting for MyTravel/Thos Cook are you?
Last edited by cojones; 19th Mar 2009 at 15:48. Reason: Addition to post
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you what?
411A and the toe rags that inhabit your patch...give us all a break and get your excuse for a brain out of the swamp that is now sadly, modern aviation. Those of us that carved a niche to create the industry that you enjoy, did so on a platform of common sense. That's the court that Pablo plays off and it doesn't matter a toss where he came from..GA, Military, PNG Twin Otters or Cadet training. He, like the rest of us should begin the process of deregulating the crap back out of the industry and make it the business it once was; a harbour for aviators, not a haven for deviators.
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Nonwithstanding, the cockpit rules (and many others) are stupid to stay polite. Especially on a full private charter.
and plays back 9/11 with it...
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Despite whatever the rights and wrongs of this whole matter, one thing that this all suggests to me is that a great deal of pilots are quite frightened of their own shadows. There's a world out there, and it's out to get you!
daisy120
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have known that Paul was not going to win, even he knew he was not going to win.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would not have stripped to their underwear at security.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would think twice or even thrice about breaking company regulations.
You are a little heavy on 411 aren't you?
Well I happen to think that swamp is manned by some of the most professional aviation staff to date in the history of flying.
From your tone the industry has changed significantly since 'you were a lad', and without significant regulation there would be several major hull losses per day.
Well it was Paul that deviated from procedure, or if you mean something different I suggest you apologise to all the professionals you are calling deviants.
Why are you upset? Pablo isn't, he will pick up a lot more money than any Captain after this, and he knows it. Why else run with a case you expected to lose?
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have known that Paul was not going to win, even he knew he was not going to win.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would not have stripped to their underwear at security.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would think twice or even thrice about breaking company regulations.
You are a little heavy on 411 aren't you?
the swamp that is now sadly, modern aviation
He, like the rest of us should begin the process of deregulating the crap back out of the industry and make it the business it once was; a harbour for aviators, not a haven for deviators
not a haven for deviators[
Why are you upset? Pablo isn't, he will pick up a lot more money than any Captain after this, and he knows it. Why else run with a case you expected to lose?
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Rule 1 stick to what you are good at.
If Pablo thought he was going to win he would have had the best brief in London as at the win costs would have been given to MyTravel.
But he obviously thought he wasn't going to win, ... bla bla
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Daisy:
Golly, seems like the facts are with the "deviators"...
My Bold... Even with 9/11 the risk has dropped more than 50% this decade... While those aviators might be romantic characterizations it seems that whatever is currently in "the swamp" it is an improvement over their kind of flying civilian airliners. Might I dare to suggest that if you want to be one of those romantic figures you visit your nearest military Career Information Office. They will better appreciate the "aviator" in you.
Airlines go two years with no fatalities - USATODAY.com
He, like the rest of us should begin the process of deregulating the crap back out of the industry and make it the business it once was; a harbour for aviators, not a haven for deviators.
For the first time since the dawn of the jet age, two consecutive years have passed without a single airline passenger death in a U.S. carrier crash.
[snip]
Going without a crash fatality for a full year has been rare. Only four years since 1958 have passed without a passenger fatality, the analysis found. That makes the two-year string even more impressive, aviation safety experts say.
[snip]
Overall risks of death on an airline flight have dropped dramatically.
Fatality risk fell to 68 per billion fliers this decade, less than half the risk in the 1990s, according to National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) data. Since 2002, the risks of dying on a flight plunged to 19 per billion, an 86% drop from the 1990s.
[snip]
Going without a crash fatality for a full year has been rare. Only four years since 1958 have passed without a passenger fatality, the analysis found. That makes the two-year string even more impressive, aviation safety experts say.
[snip]
Overall risks of death on an airline flight have dropped dramatically.
Fatality risk fell to 68 per billion fliers this decade, less than half the risk in the 1990s, according to National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) data. Since 2002, the risks of dying on a flight plunged to 19 per billion, an 86% drop from the 1990s.
Airlines go two years with no fatalities - USATODAY.com
Captain's responsibility
Taken from this site : "Shiga" in the Bay
The Captain took full responsibility for the accident and refused to blame anyone else or any other circumstances.
At the NTSB hearing, Captain Asoh took the stand as first witness and supposedly said, in answer to why he had landed in the bay, "As you Americans say, I f****d up."
Such a frank acceptance of blame and responsibility has come to be known as the "Asoh Defense". It has been discussed in various books such "The Abilene Paradox" by Professor Jerry Harvey, publications and in company training films.
Accident of the DC-8 'Shiga' landing in the Bay of San Francisco, with no fatalities or injuries.
The Captain took full responsibility for the accident and refused to blame anyone else or any other circumstances.
At the NTSB hearing, Captain Asoh took the stand as first witness and supposedly said, in answer to why he had landed in the bay, "As you Americans say, I f****d up."
Such a frank acceptance of blame and responsibility has come to be known as the "Asoh Defense". It has been discussed in various books such "The Abilene Paradox" by Professor Jerry Harvey, publications and in company training films.
Accident of the DC-8 'Shiga' landing in the Bay of San Francisco, with no fatalities or injuries.
Might I dare to suggest that if you want to be one of those romantic figures you visit your nearest military Career Information Office. They will better appreciate the "aviator" in you.
Don't be naughty
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What would he have done when he was in the RAF if someone had disobeyed his direct orders? He'd have disciplined them.
He sounds like a nice guy, but could you trust him? The BOI report into the Tornado crash I understand he was involved with makes for an interesting read.
He sounds like a nice guy, but could you trust him? The BOI report into the Tornado crash I understand he was involved with makes for an interesting read.