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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 25th Feb 2009, 13:39
  #141 (permalink)  
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For those not familiar with the B737:
On a Dual-Autopilot approach, the aircraft back-trims at around 400'. In case of a subsequent manual GA (normally the autopilot handles the GA) for whatever reason, a downward force is needed on the joke to avoid over-rotation...this can surprise sometimes new left-seaters during their sim-training.

Does anyone know the distance/time between the THY and the preceding landing aircraft, previous post say a B752?

Were LVP's in progress?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 13:41
  #142 (permalink)  
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It SEEMS that no Urgency/Emergency call was made, which makes a fuel starvation scenario as suggested unlikely.
I'm not pushing fuel exhaustion as a pet theory but your statement is fundamentally flawed. In another culture, a pilot or crew that has screwed up with their arrival fuel could well be in a mindset to completely ignore the fact that have gone below minimum reserve (1100kg or whatever) because the loss of face is not acceptable.

Where this has happened elsewhere it usually comes to light that the culprit is a serial transgressor. Thankfully most of us would swallow our pride, stuff out a Mayday call and go straight to the front of the queue. This bloke may well have been stooging around the AMS pattern at 2000' for ages, waiting his turn, burning fuel like there's no tomorrow.

As I said, not a pet theory but the CVR will tell all quite soon I think.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 13:51
  #143 (permalink)  
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no sponsor -
It is actually pretty hard to stall a 737.
Not hard at all with ice on the tail. Don't know what model you're talking about. Only airplane I had a hard time stalling was the 1049 Connie.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 13:56
  #144 (permalink)  
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This scanner transponder stuff is a false indication. 1650' should tell you something!
Except for the probable position that Bye offered, the altitude, speed and heading would be consistent with a vector that would line up the aircraft to intercept the ILS. Schiphol vectors at 2000' QNH. And Bye has indicated that this was not the last mode-S recording.

False indication... probably not. Rubbish... probably not. Just irrelevant.

On the other hand, it confirms that there was probably nothing wrong with the aircrafts approach path until very late on final approach. Even the last mode-S recording seems completely normal.

On a related note - we know from these mode-s returns that the aircraft did 149 knots at 1050 feet (actually FL10.5, so 1500 feet on the QNH). Would it even be possible to bleed off so much speed in such a short period of time, so that the aircraft would be at stall speed 1000 feet lower, while maintaining the GS?

the reason there is no data down to the deck is due to the delay.
The reason no data down to the deck is available, with mode-S is selective interrogation. Such a transponder only transponds when prompted, either by radar or TCAS. But there's no deliberate delay built into mode-S or the scanners that receive them.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 13:58
  #145 (permalink)  
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i posted 2 sets of data in 2 seperate posts which have both been consistant.

again i'm sorry, i won't post again.

There was nothing wrong with your posts Geoff. I have no idea how accurate your Mode S data is, but giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that it is genuine data then I for one found it perfectly reasonable information for you to post - unlike almost every other post here.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:00
  #146 (permalink)  
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AS a 737 Pilot:

I don't know why this plane crashed.

But I would like all of those who might have better views...

what position do the flaps appear in? here in the USA, there has been only brief mention of this tragedy...instead we are getting obama's speech analyzed

TO CNN, please fire( to british people this means SACK) your weather reporter who insists that jet engines have carbuerators, please rehire your award winning aviation/space reporter who at least has a private pilot lic.

I think it is interesting that the plane seems to have been following a 757, but am not convinced this means anything. Exact distances in trail must be known before any speculation on wake turbulence...also position on GS (high or low).

I agree with the poster that the plane trims nose up during a coupled approach.

I agree that when you add power in a 737 the nose goes up. But if you have seen it once, you know.

No mayday, weather not too bad, plane fairly new, airline that hasn't had a huge amount of recent crashes. Something happened quickly...man, machine...we don't know yet.

Pilots have suffered heart attacks at the controls, but that is why we have copilots.

So, let's calm down and wait for the answers. Modern recorders, pilots survived? we should know within 48 hours a clue at least.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:01
  #147 (permalink)  
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Both pilots killed

Dutch news confirms both pilots did not survive the crash.

Beide piloten komen om - Binnenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [binnenland]

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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:10
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Worth pointing out that ADS-B equipped aircraft transmit extended Mode-S squitters that are not contingent on Mode-S interrogation, so you can easily get position and other data broadcast at more than once per second rates.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:13
  #149 (permalink)  
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according to the Turkish press, the plane was loaded with 9,600 litres of fuel in Istanbul before taking off
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:18
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Some Hi res photos, that take you 360 degrees around crash site.



The next two have been posted before on page 4.



As previously stated they are grim.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:18
  #151 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bushfiva
I notice the BBC website coverage uses a map that doesn't show Polderbaan. Sigh.
Yes, I've pointed this out to them twice now with no change. They were also referring to 36R at one point
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:20
  #152 (permalink)  
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U.s.a N T S B Team To Amsterdam To Assist Dutch Safety Board


National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

February 25, 2009


The National Transportation Safety Board is sending a team
of investigators to Amsterdam, the Netherlands, to assist in
the investigation of a B-737-800 (T-CJGE) Turkish Airlines
flight 1951 that crashed short of the runway on approach.
Multiple fatalities and injuries have been reported.

NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker has designated senior
air safety investigator Joe Sedor as the U.S. Accredited
Representative. He will be joined by three other NTSB
investigators. The U.S. team will also include technical
advisors from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA),
Boeing and General Electric.

Information on the progress of the investigation will be
released by the Dutch Safety Board. The agency's phone
number in the Netherlands is (31)70 333 7000, the agency’s
website is www.safetyboard.nl and the email address is
[email protected].

Media contact: Keith Holloway 202-314-6100
[email protected]

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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:21
  #153 (permalink)  
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OK, some facts:

1. The weather at the time over that part of NW Europe was benign under high pressure with light SW'erly winds

2. The temperature at the time of the crash was +5deg C, the clouds were stratiform

=> windshear is extremely unlikely in these conditions
=> engine icing is possible in these conditions (although a few hours earlier my 747-400 auto eng antice system was not activated when flying into LHR in the same basic air mass). The cloud tops were relatively low at below 5000ft (my judgement), and as such exposure to engine icing conditions would have been quite limited in duration and in no way severe with the heating of the air due to the airspeed.

3. The cloudbase of 600-700ft and visibility of 3+km should cause no professional pilot any cause for the slightest concern.

4. B737's can not dump fuel

5. Jet A1 fuel is quite hard to ignite, and much harder than petrol etc

=> lack of a fire in no way indicates no fuel on board.

6. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable and are best ignored.

Nonetheless, the aircraft crashed short of the runway. The facts as determined by the accident investigation and the analysis of the black box flight recorders and cockpit voice recorder will give initial indications within the next few days.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:23
  #154 (permalink)  
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Some larger photos here,



In the first picture, is that still one of the flight crew in the FD? Very hard to see.

Also look at the seats coming out of the crack.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:23
  #155 (permalink)  
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Dont know if any of you guys can gain anything from these reports on the BBC from passengers and people on the ground

Page last updated at 15:11 GMT, Wednesday, 25 February 2009

Turkish plane crash: witnesses
Passengers and eyewitnesses have been describing what they saw when a Turkish Airlines plane crashed on landing at Amsterdam's Schiphol international airport.

Kerem Uzel, passenger
"We were at an altitude of 600m (2,000 feet) when we heard the announcement that we were landing.

"We suddenly descended a great distance as if the plane fell into turbulence. The plane's tail hit the ground. It slid from the side of the motorway into the field."

Huseyin Sumer, passenger
"We were about to land, we could not understand what was happening. Some passengers screamed in panic but it happened so fast."

Unidentified passenger
"The first thing I did was take the children who were walking around there in the plane. That's the first thing you're thinking about. We immediately brought the children outside the plane."

Tuncer Mutluhan, passenger
"While we were making a normal landing it felt like we fell into a void, the plane lost control, suddenly plunged and crashed.

"It all happened in three or five seconds. There was panic after that."

Thomas Freidhoff, eyewitness
"[The plane] completely lost propulsion or couldn't glide anymore, and you clearly saw it come down several tens of metres and come to a quite sudden stop.

"The plane was nose up and the tail section was at a 45-degree angle. Seconds after the crash people started exiting through the tail section - 15-20 people, all of them, of course, frightened.

"Minutes after that they were climbing back in to get more passengers, who were slightly injured."

Jonathan Nip, local resident
"The whole of the aeroplane, without any wings or front or rear end, is lying in the field and there are about 50 ambulances, a lot of firetrucks, a couple of helicopters, emergency helicopters, a lot of police, a lot of sirens.

"It wasn't really a big crash, or a loud noise because the plane isn't that far from the runway so I think it wasn't going that fast or it wasn't that high to really make a big impact."

Nikolai van der Smagt, local worker
"I saw the plane lying there in three pieces.

"The first people were just getting off the plane and they looked confused. There was a lot a dust, but no fire."

Relative at Schiphol airport
"l managed to speak to my children and my family who were in the plane. They said there was panic on board, incredible, people were shouting: 'Get us out of here! Get us out of here!'"

Unidentified local resident
"We were inside in the house and we heard a smack, and we thought it was on the freeway.

So we got a cell phone and called, and somebody said: 'There is an aeroplane in your land.'"
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:26
  #156 (permalink)  
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I just listened to a survivor being interviewed and he said he could smell kerosene after the crash.

That would suggest that fuel exhaustion is not a factor.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:32
  #157 (permalink)  
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Site of crash

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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:34
  #158 (permalink)  
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Question no fire

No fire doesn't necessarily indicate no fuel - it is fuel vapour that catches fire and empty tanks can still contain vapour.

It is, however, very odd albeit miraculous that the aircraft lost an engine on impact and broke into 3 pieces and there was no fire at all. If it was wind shear on approach then it was thanks to excellent airmanship that only 9 souls were lost. The TAF indicated a tempo change in visibility and wx changes to -dzra which might indicate a pressure or wind change. Only conjecture - need more facts.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:36
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Of course he could smell kerosene!!!! All aircraft tanks will have a residual amount of fuel left in them...even when the booster pumps can't scavenge anymore, even a tank that has been competely drained and ventilated for 24hrs still stinks of the stuff!

Oh why didn't I listen to my mother and become a doctor?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 14:37
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If they were running low on fuel, they would hardly fly all around Holland to land on 18R, a southerly runway. Unless the crew were unaware...but that is too much speculation. So can we freeze the no fire-no fuel discusion?
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