Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 75
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thy Schipol
Roger Greendock seems to have missed the point. Humans make lots of mistakes, what matters is how they handle a given situation. Yes, of course we learn after a terrible event, but why not consider CHIRP, surely this is not just merely a confessional booth, added to which there are lots and lots of incident reports where the final outcome was not catastrophic.
Survival stories are so much more interesting than those that end up with wholesale carnage. From time to time we need to have a reality check and remind ourselves that our environment is real and that it is not a computer grenerated image commanded by a multitude of little buttons and switches.
The book "Robert Piche Hands on Destiny" by Pierre Cayoutte is a good read, it is not so much about the incident as it is about the man. The title says it all.
Survival stories are so much more interesting than those that end up with wholesale carnage. From time to time we need to have a reality check and remind ourselves that our environment is real and that it is not a computer grenerated image commanded by a multitude of little buttons and switches.
The book "Robert Piche Hands on Destiny" by Pierre Cayoutte is a good read, it is not so much about the incident as it is about the man. The title says it all.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must correct you on your statement re autocratic captain..whilst somewhat correct the accident cause lies in an incompetent bullying management, incorrect training and poor maintanence. This was reflected in the press of the time but the inquiry's conclusions were incorrect..partly due to evidence being withheld or manipulated.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 2nd Mar 2013 at 15:05.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DozyWannabe you referred briefly, in passing, to the Trident accident in 1972 and stated that ... the autocratic tendencies of the flight commander rendered the rest of the crew's input moot...
Given the obvious care and thought you take with your posts, I say, with respect, that I think it would have been fairer if you had made it clear that this particular statement was your opinion, rather than to have stated it as accepted fact.
I suggest that few pilots around at that time would disagree with the statement that the captain could be autocratic, but there was nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that he had, in your words, ...rendered the crew’s input moot... on this flight.
If you would like to read the AAIB report, it can be found here
As I believe blind pew is hinting at, I think it would be a much more rigorous investigation these days, with more evidence being unearthed and made available to the enquiry, resulting in a rather different report, but then, that’s just my opinion!
Given the obvious care and thought you take with your posts, I say, with respect, that I think it would have been fairer if you had made it clear that this particular statement was your opinion, rather than to have stated it as accepted fact.
I suggest that few pilots around at that time would disagree with the statement that the captain could be autocratic, but there was nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that he had, in your words, ...rendered the crew’s input moot... on this flight.
If you would like to read the AAIB report, it can be found here
As I believe blind pew is hinting at, I think it would be a much more rigorous investigation these days, with more evidence being unearthed and made available to the enquiry, resulting in a rather different report, but then, that’s just my opinion!
Last edited by Trident Sim; 3rd Mar 2013 at 01:02.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Forest
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM 2B or not 2B
I was serving at the time of BEA 548 and I knew those involved. I maker no comment on the accident per se but the CRM aspect of this thread attracts my attention. I joined the company from the military where I had been an “Independent” Flight Commander. I was very aware of the stresses and strains apparent in the company chain of command (and that is quite definitely another story – which will probably never be told!). As to “bullying management” (Blind Pew), I would suggest that in those days, management was extremely benign compared to what it later became. One would have no hesitation at all in going upstairs to relate ones problems (and cock-ups) pro bono publico (or, at least, for the other crews).
I had to start at the very bottom, as a “third pilot” with only one ring, looked on with contempt by all and sundry in the crew room. I learned to hold my tongue and observe and sometimes it was not a pretty sight. Because of my background – and nothing to do with CRM, which had not even been invented then – I had no hesitation in voicing my concerns and can categorically state that on certainly two occasions I averted disaster, once with probably only one second to spare. In my dotage, morbid curiosity has got the better of me and I have actually been to see the valley where 150 people might have gone to meet their Maker. On other occasions, there might certainly have been considerable embarrassment, but not necessarily any real danger.
And sometimes, old coals are best left unraked. We all learned our lessons – the hard way. As I said, this was before the days of CRM. Or was it?
I had to start at the very bottom, as a “third pilot” with only one ring, looked on with contempt by all and sundry in the crew room. I learned to hold my tongue and observe and sometimes it was not a pretty sight. Because of my background – and nothing to do with CRM, which had not even been invented then – I had no hesitation in voicing my concerns and can categorically state that on certainly two occasions I averted disaster, once with probably only one second to spare. In my dotage, morbid curiosity has got the better of me and I have actually been to see the valley where 150 people might have gone to meet their Maker. On other occasions, there might certainly have been considerable embarrassment, but not necessarily any real danger.
And sometimes, old coals are best left unraked. We all learned our lessons – the hard way. As I said, this was before the days of CRM. Or was it?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given the obvious care and thought you take with your posts, I say, with respect, that I think it would have been fairer if you had made it clear that this particular statement was your opinion, rather than to have stated it as accepted fact.
I suggest that few pilots around at that time would disagree with the statement that the captain could be autocratic, but there was nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that he had, in your words, ...rendered the crew’s input moot... on this flight.
I suggest that few pilots around at that time would disagree with the statement that the captain could be autocratic, but there was nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that he had, in your words, ...rendered the crew’s input moot... on this flight.
I wasn't intending to go into that much detail because the intent was to use it as a probable example of why CRM became so important, and the thread is not about BEA548.
That said, thanks for the extra info and regards!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 75
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
soft wet soil
Cannot quite follow why this particular subject has been resurrected, with yet another picture of the accident site and the effacatious qualities of soft wet soil. Could it be that as we now have lots of wet soil, courtesy of Zeus, all those aloft over the UK are quite safe. Good publicity to revive our battered tourist industry perhaps.
