Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
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757 Driver I agree with your comment concerning Hands on the controls during approach.
if your hand is on the throttles and you feel them retard your eyes automatically will go to the ASI even if u are not it the loop. it will make you think WTF is this thing doing.
if your hand is on the throttles and you feel them retard your eyes automatically will go to the ASI even if u are not it the loop. it will make you think WTF is this thing doing.
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I know I should get the FCOM out, but for a quick answer...
On a single channel coupled approach, does the A/T still look at the Radalt? So it will still retard the throttles in the same manner and height as on a Dual channel autoland? And who's Radalt does it take the information from?
Cheers
On a single channel coupled approach, does the A/T still look at the Radalt? So it will still retard the throttles in the same manner and height as on a Dual channel autoland? And who's Radalt does it take the information from?
Cheers
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Dutch officials say faulty altimeter played role in Turkish plane crash
quote:
When flying at about 1,950 feet (594 meteres) the plane's left radio altitude meter indicated the Boeing 737-800 was flying at minus 8 feet, prompting the automatic pilot to shut down the engines, he added.
"The crew initially did not react to these events," Vollenhoven said. When an alarm went off that the plane's speed would drop below the minimum, the pilots reacted and reignited the engines.
good work hurriyet
quote:
When flying at about 1,950 feet (594 meteres) the plane's left radio altitude meter indicated the Boeing 737-800 was flying at minus 8 feet, prompting the automatic pilot to shut down the engines, he added.
"The crew initially did not react to these events," Vollenhoven said. When an alarm went off that the plane's speed would drop below the minimum, the pilots reacted and reignited the engines.
good work hurriyet
me neither,no manuals at home, but from what is written here on the hallowed pages YES, YES , RadAlt 1 (Capt)
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ballyboley I know I should get the FCOM out, but for a quick answer...
On a single channel coupled approach, does the A/T still look at the Radalt? So it will still retard the throttles in the same manner and height as on a Dual channel autoland? And who's Radalt does it take the information from?
On a single channel coupled approach, does the A/T still look at the Radalt? So it will still retard the throttles in the same manner and height as on a Dual channel autoland? And who's Radalt does it take the information from?
One point I am interested in is were these crews previously form a B732/3/4/5 type aircraft where a speed drop on the "old" annaloge ASI would have been a lot more noticable, and the information depicted on the B738 w.r.t. speed tape is not as quickly noticable and thus its depiction was not caught amongst the various other information given to the crew with the NG CRT's.
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But the Turkish media will look for a different answer as their heroes certainly we trained qualified capable and not doing the "Aviate" thing.
TRE or not , no wake turbulence issue, no wind shear or earthquake, these guys failed their primary function,
and maybe it will give us insight to Turkish Airlines procedures and training for future analysis. There are airlines that can not fly into the EU for obvious reasons, should we reevaluate this airline ?
TRE or not , no wake turbulence issue, no wind shear or earthquake, these guys failed their primary function,
and maybe it will give us insight to Turkish Airlines procedures and training for future analysis. There are airlines that can not fly into the EU for obvious reasons, should we reevaluate this airline ?
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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AFAIK, it still takes the Retard from No1RA and the Flare from No2RA.
TRC raised an interesting point
I wonder if the Turkish culture is anything like the Far East culture? You don't make the Captain lose face, you don't tell hinm his mistakes. We have seen copilots prepared to sit there and die rather than take a stand for safety (and see themselves canned when they survive). I gather it still goes on in the Far East. Is Turkish culture remotely like this?
TRC raised an interesting point
the distinct possibility that the junior crew might have been reluctant to report to, or comment to the captain that things weren't as they should be.
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Yes, sorry, I had a quick look but lost the will to trawl through all the posts for the info.
Most interesting, and I wasn't quite sure about the retard mode, I guess we get so used to disconnecting A/P and A/T that you never think what would happen if the A/T stayed in.
I see the point regarding the analogue instruments, but personally I still think a dropping speed trend is pretty noticable even on the TV screens - we'll need to see what comes out of the CVR for the full picture...
Most interesting, and I wasn't quite sure about the retard mode, I guess we get so used to disconnecting A/P and A/T that you never think what would happen if the A/T stayed in.
I see the point regarding the analogue instruments, but personally I still think a dropping speed trend is pretty noticable even on the TV screens - we'll need to see what comes out of the CVR for the full picture...
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Having flown 7300hr on 3/4/500 and 4700hr on the 800 I would respectively suggest that clockwork vs TV isn't the problem.
IMHO you really need to be (for whatever reason) "out to lunch" to miss speed reduction from Vref to Vref -40
Sorry, bit blunt, but that is it.
IMHO you really need to be (for whatever reason) "out to lunch" to miss speed reduction from Vref to Vref -40
Sorry, bit blunt, but that is it.
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professionnal pilots...
Dear colleagues,
-When I read all these posts, I see professionnals insulting each other and showing very low respect for their equals. This is quite shocking to my opinion. I just hate to think that "cool heads", as we should stay even in difficult situations, get so excited on a "simple" discussion forum... That is more scary than the details you are pointing to, don't you think? ...
-A lot of confusion in the previous posts about autoland/automatic approaches/cat 3... Do you realise those things are to be considered separately and are not necessarily combined ?? scary as well if it is coming from professionnals...
... and the same are pointing their finger to the crew involved in this accident ?
-Still I read interesting posts as well, hopefully.
-Do not focus on the 100 seconds of reaction time etc... you just make short cuts, the same ones you blame for not being acceptable.
Do you count the configuration time, where it is obvious that you want idle thrust, etc, etc... ? You are just missing (as I am) other factors to be able to count your seconds there....and still does it really matter ?
-Let's focus on discovering what has broken the normal solid chain between pilot flying (was he really?), pilot monitoring, observer or safety pilot... For that we just need the full report I'm afraid, right ? Taking all factors into account !
-Am I correctly reading that some pros are questionning the "non-ability" of stick shacker recovery at 400-500feet ? Sorry and deeply, but things were settled way before for the impact to occur. You add the time for the captain to realise, take controls, apply thrust, time for thrust to come from idle to what was set... just too late unfortunately.
Do you expect a stick shaker to be usefull at 500 ft ground ? I don't.
Do not expect a new FO to be able to deal with this kind of recovery either, right ?
-So we will all learn a lot as usual. Let's look ourselves in the mirror and forget a bit about the "it won't happen to me" because I do this or that; how many of us are still trying to analyse why an automatic system is not responding as it should in place of disconnecting it immediately as we are trained for ? Maybe also part of these tragic events... as someaone said : training and more training.
Regards,
flyer146
-When I read all these posts, I see professionnals insulting each other and showing very low respect for their equals. This is quite shocking to my opinion. I just hate to think that "cool heads", as we should stay even in difficult situations, get so excited on a "simple" discussion forum... That is more scary than the details you are pointing to, don't you think? ...
-A lot of confusion in the previous posts about autoland/automatic approaches/cat 3... Do you realise those things are to be considered separately and are not necessarily combined ?? scary as well if it is coming from professionnals...
... and the same are pointing their finger to the crew involved in this accident ? -Still I read interesting posts as well, hopefully.
-Do not focus on the 100 seconds of reaction time etc... you just make short cuts, the same ones you blame for not being acceptable.
Do you count the configuration time, where it is obvious that you want idle thrust, etc, etc... ? You are just missing (as I am) other factors to be able to count your seconds there....and still does it really matter ?
-Let's focus on discovering what has broken the normal solid chain between pilot flying (was he really?), pilot monitoring, observer or safety pilot... For that we just need the full report I'm afraid, right ? Taking all factors into account !
-Am I correctly reading that some pros are questionning the "non-ability" of stick shacker recovery at 400-500feet ? Sorry and deeply, but things were settled way before for the impact to occur. You add the time for the captain to realise, take controls, apply thrust, time for thrust to come from idle to what was set... just too late unfortunately.
Do you expect a stick shaker to be usefull at 500 ft ground ? I don't.
Do not expect a new FO to be able to deal with this kind of recovery either, right ?
-So we will all learn a lot as usual. Let's look ourselves in the mirror and forget a bit about the "it won't happen to me" because I do this or that; how many of us are still trying to analyse why an automatic system is not responding as it should in place of disconnecting it immediately as we are trained for ? Maybe also part of these tragic events... as someaone said : training and more training.
Regards,
flyer146
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Flyer146
Do you expect a stick shaker to be usefull at 500 ft ground ? I don't.
Do not expect a new FO to be able to deal with this kind of recovery either, right ?
Do not expect a new FO to be able to deal with this kind of recovery either, right ?
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Romeo E.T. You're wrong, the A/T will still retard on a single channel approach. I've had it several times on a windy day when I've been hand flying with the A/T in arm mode. The speed floor has been triggered by a gust and the A/T has gone back to MCP Speed, and at 27' or so I have seen retard annunciate and the thrust levers retard.
Actually, an alarm triggered by the speed dropping more than 20kts below the MCP commanded speed would be a good idea.
But someone should have spotted this, and even a new pilot should know the standard stall recovery - they must have practised it in the sim recently.
Actually, an alarm triggered by the speed dropping more than 20kts below the MCP commanded speed would be a good idea.
But someone should have spotted this, and even a new pilot should know the standard stall recovery - they must have practised it in the sim recently.
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please recall that many accidents happen when the PIC is acting as the NFP. And this time, the PIC was in the right seat checking out the new captain to be in the left seat.
I don't know about your company, but we do stalls in the landing configuration during sim checks and training. And we all have seen the pitch change with thrust from a 737.
I don't know about your company, but we do stalls in the landing configuration during sim checks and training. And we all have seen the pitch change with thrust from a 737.
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Pan Am
Before ANYBODY else gives any more comment on this accident
may I advise him or her to look on Cockpit Culture of Pan Am?
If I am not clear, please discard all clutter or (crapp) and concentrate on MILITARY culture in the COCKPIT.
Welcome THY,ONUR and the rest as you may discover.
Have a nice day.
may I advise him or her to look on Cockpit Culture of Pan Am?
If I am not clear, please discard all clutter or (crapp) and concentrate on MILITARY culture in the COCKPIT.
Welcome THY,ONUR and the rest as you may discover.
Have a nice day.
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Originally Posted by Rainboe
I wonder if the Turkish culture is anything like the Far East culture? You don't make the Captain lose face, you don't tell hinm his mistakes. We have seen copilots prepared to sit there and die rather than take a stand for safety (and see themselves canned when they survive). I gather it still goes on in the Far East. Is Turkish culture remotely like this?
I did live in Istanbul for a couple of years after college and the general impression I got was that us(?) Turks tend to respect our elders, or ranking superiors, much more than people in Western culture. Moreover, Turks are generally more polite, careful not to offend, and eager to please. Authority is respected, as is power and social standing. All thing considered the hypothetical scenario you describe, in which the Captain's mistakes aren't pointed out, seems entirely plausible to me.
Incidentally, I cannot overstate how disappointed I am with the Turkish government, and media, and their recent campaigns of blatant misinformation and lies. These disgraceful actions further prove that the truth and our future safety do not matter, it is more important to uphold Turkish pride and not tell people things they don't want to hear.
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This is fairly close to a number of posters expectations. ie, the aircraft maintained idle thrust while flying down the approach untill the stick shake went. It is fairly common to have idle thrust during most of the approach, however you would also expect it to spool up by the time you are configured.
The big question is why didn't these guys not notice it hadn't.
With regards to all of this hands on bull, the problem here was a failure to monitor the speed & thrust, I doubt that a hand on the thrust levers would have made a bit of diference.
I am not going to join in the blame game, there are plenty employed to do that allready, I just hope we all learn a bit more from this one and with a bit of luck it won't be repeated.
The big question is why didn't these guys not notice it hadn't.
With regards to all of this hands on bull, the problem here was a failure to monitor the speed & thrust, I doubt that a hand on the thrust levers would have made a bit of diference.
I am not going to join in the blame game, there are plenty employed to do that allready, I just hope we all learn a bit more from this one and with a bit of luck it won't be repeated.
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100 seconds? Didn't see that in the English version. Anyway if you close the throttles in landing config with seed around v-ref the speed decelerates a lot quicker than 100 secs, so I'd rather let the poor crew have the benfit of the doubt untill the final report. They still have my sympathies.
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Aparently 737-800's fly themselves ?Pilots relying on sophisticated electronics
Quote from article = The Times Online
In relation to Turkish Airlines Incident .
The initial accident findings are certain to intensify debate over the dangers of pilots losing their basic flying skills as a result of relying on the sophisticated electronics that control airliners through most of their flights.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5846088.ece
The british press at its best hey lads ...
Any comments
In relation to Turkish Airlines Incident .
The initial accident findings are certain to intensify debate over the dangers of pilots losing their basic flying skills as a result of relying on the sophisticated electronics that control airliners through most of their flights.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5846088.ece
The british press at its best hey lads ...
Any comments