Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This isn't about hours - in the uk BA (when they are actualy flying and not on strike) hire many many cadets with 250 hrs and have done so for many years. There is a diferance in emphasis between the US and UK with the US traditionaly requiring higher hours.
The problem lies with relevant experiance, training and work paterns.
Redflyer - I suspect we may work for the same company. You are correct + 15kt for flap 35. The increase of 20kt is for V ref flap 5, flap 10 and flap 15.
They should have had as a minimum speed vref flap 5 + 20kt for ice and + 10kt for manouver. This would have alowed them up to 30' AOB.
As to reducing power when gear was selected it makes sense if you consider that he wanted to be at Vref flap 15 and was therefore wanting the speed to decrease.
As you corectly point out stick shake went off as designed before the flaps actually travelled to 15.
The problem lies with relevant experiance, training and work paterns.
Redflyer - I suspect we may work for the same company. You are correct + 15kt for flap 35. The increase of 20kt is for V ref flap 5, flap 10 and flap 15.
They should have had as a minimum speed vref flap 5 + 20kt for ice and + 10kt for manouver. This would have alowed them up to 30' AOB.
As to reducing power when gear was selected it makes sense if you consider that he wanted to be at Vref flap 15 and was therefore wanting the speed to decrease.
As you corectly point out stick shake went off as designed before the flaps actually travelled to 15.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Here, there, everywhere
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The red low speed awareness tape has been mentioned several times here before, but I know of many people who once flew the Q400 with with analogue 'dial' instruments on the glass PFD.
Does anyone know which variant Colgan flies with?
Does anyone know which variant Colgan flies with?
Originally Posted by captjns
On steam gauged aircraft you can set any speed you want with the plastic bugs, be they corrector in correct.
On the new generation aircraft, speeds are automatically calculated based on data input in the FMC...
On the new generation aircraft, speeds are automatically calculated based on data input in the FMC...
Originally Posted by Diamond Bob
The pilot was able to set the bugs below the stall speed, isn't that so?
Originally Posted by Diamond Bob
It would seem to be a good idea that there be some safeguard against that.
Originally Posted by Love_joy
Does anyone know which variant Colgan flies with?
On NTSB animation, there was speed tape and it can also be seen on this photo. So I assume Colgan Q400s have speed tape.
Originally Posted by Bearfoil
There was an utter lack of professionalism on the FD on approach.
Stall recovery procedure in transport category aeroplanes doesn't apply to line pilots, only to test ones. Transport aeroplanes are not designed for pleasant stall characteristics, especially not Q400 which had to have stick pusher installed to meet the certification criteria. Line pilots are trained to recover promptly at stall warning, while aeroplane is not stalled yet. If they by misfortune enter the fully blown stall, same procedure has to be followed but now there are no guarantees of success.
And there's that inconvenient fact that some respectable individuals gloss over: if crew through action or inaction manages to get fully serviceable transport aeroplane into full stall or severe UA, chances are b***er-all that it will have presence of mind to apply appropriate recovery actions correctly and promptly.
Line crews and stall training
Clandestino wrote:-
"And there's that inconvenient fact that some respectable individuals gloss over: if crew through action or inaction manages to get fully serviceable transport aeroplane into full stall or severe UA, chances are b***er-all that it will have presence of mind to apply appropriate recovery actions correctly and promptly."
Really? How about unload wing? They had, in relative terms, stacks of altitude. Why pull when a push would save them?
The FAA have a lot to answer for in the way stall training is conducted. The emphasis must be Full Thrust AND attitude, attitude, attitude.
For too long it's been Full Thrust and altitude, altitude altitude.
To my mind we train, at the FAA's insistence, on setting up a stall when we should be training stall recovery. In order to quantify a pilots ability to recover from a stall we have a set of parameters which encourage the very cause of this crash. Don't loose altitude so at shaker we have pilots pulling instead of unloading the wing.
Check the FAA Practical Test Standards handbook.
"And there's that inconvenient fact that some respectable individuals gloss over: if crew through action or inaction manages to get fully serviceable transport aeroplane into full stall or severe UA, chances are b***er-all that it will have presence of mind to apply appropriate recovery actions correctly and promptly."
Really? How about unload wing? They had, in relative terms, stacks of altitude. Why pull when a push would save them?
The FAA have a lot to answer for in the way stall training is conducted. The emphasis must be Full Thrust AND attitude, attitude, attitude.
For too long it's been Full Thrust and altitude, altitude altitude.
To my mind we train, at the FAA's insistence, on setting up a stall when we should be training stall recovery. In order to quantify a pilots ability to recover from a stall we have a set of parameters which encourage the very cause of this crash. Don't loose altitude so at shaker we have pilots pulling instead of unloading the wing.
Check the FAA Practical Test Standards handbook.
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flown-It...Don't know about you but in FAR 121 Ops/Sim sessions, I was always trained to recognize and avoid stalls, not enter them...The recovery depends on a variety of factors, i.e.-weight, alt, wx conditions, etc...
However, as you say, when you are in a C-150 or 172, you actually do train and experience a "full" stall...Maybe thats where your post comes from????
However, as you say, when you are in a C-150 or 172, you actually do train and experience a "full" stall...Maybe thats where your post comes from????
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But
the truth is I have never completely stalled a transport jet in the sim...its all a big sort of ballet showing how to recover from an incipient stall.
I would like to point out one thing..if the regs say you need 1500 hours to get a job...people will start lying in their logbooks...and I hope that this is checked out in this case.
I would like to point out one thing..if the regs say you need 1500 hours to get a job...people will start lying in their logbooks...and I hope that this is checked out in this case.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the whole pilot licensing system should be totally revised and done again from the scratch.
It is almost as old as the Chicago convention, for Christ sake.
We all should fight together to achieve a new licensing regulation (and keep the hands of the greedy industry away of it or it would be much worse).
This could bring dignity back to our profession.
It is almost as old as the Chicago convention, for Christ sake.
We all should fight together to achieve a new licensing regulation (and keep the hands of the greedy industry away of it or it would be much worse).
This could bring dignity back to our profession.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once again after an accident/incident... so much written by so many about so little...
This crew would have screwed up whether flying an A380 or a piper cub... nothing to do with equipment... all to do with crew performance...
Every flight whether a 14 hr sector or a 50 mile positioning hop has to have a....
"Let's shut the F*ck Up" and focus on the Job" portion.
Oh yes... we call it a sterile cockpit.
If we need to look further then let's look at fatigue and cheap labour.
This crew would have screwed up whether flying an A380 or a piper cub... nothing to do with equipment... all to do with crew performance...
Every flight whether a 14 hr sector or a 50 mile positioning hop has to have a....
"Let's shut the F*ck Up" and focus on the Job" portion.
Oh yes... we call it a sterile cockpit.
If we need to look further then let's look at fatigue and cheap labour.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: sfo
Age: 70
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
p51guy
Setting an hours limit on new hires is not the answer, it is training. I flew most of my career in British Airways. For many years now cadet pilots from the flying schools joined us with 250hrs or so and trained straight on to B737/B757-767 and A320 with no problems. After the technical conversion course up to 50 sectors were flown under supervision and then restricitions placed on flyng with new Capts. for some time.
These early cadets are now Capts. with BA and we have had no accidents or incidents due to low houred pilots.
Just one comment on the difference I found with CAA versus FAA Type Rating courses I have been through. The FAA minimum height loss rule during stall training concentrated more on height loss to pass the test, rather than teaching lowering the nose enough to unstall, and then concentrate on min height loss, as in the CAA sylabus.
These early cadets are now Capts. with BA and we have had no accidents or incidents due to low houred pilots.
Just one comment on the difference I found with CAA versus FAA Type Rating courses I have been through. The FAA minimum height loss rule during stall training concentrated more on height loss to pass the test, rather than teaching lowering the nose enough to unstall, and then concentrate on min height loss, as in the CAA sylabus.
Last edited by cessnapete; 21st Dec 2009 at 10:49.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In BA you have a tough selection process.
BA does not save money by hiring a low houred type rated pilot instead of an experienced or low houred non type rated pilot. But most of the other airlines do prefer to save the money!
I do know many pilots who joined major european airlines with 250 hours. As a matter of fact, a couple of them happen to be the best captains I have ever had. They also happen to be very talented and intelligent.
You can make a very good pilot from a talented person with a good academic background by providind him or her with good training.
This is how things should be:
- FIRST: SELECTION
- SECOND: TRAINING
- THIRD: if successful training: TYPE RATING
- FOURTH: if succesful: TO THE LINE
SELECTION FIRST is the most important. Thus there is no need for the guys to fight each other with thousands of pounds as ammunition to get hired. But this silly fight is the delight of the greedy airlines.
Oh, How I wish that this system gets changed!!
BA does not save money by hiring a low houred type rated pilot instead of an experienced or low houred non type rated pilot. But most of the other airlines do prefer to save the money!
I do know many pilots who joined major european airlines with 250 hours. As a matter of fact, a couple of them happen to be the best captains I have ever had. They also happen to be very talented and intelligent.
You can make a very good pilot from a talented person with a good academic background by providind him or her with good training.
This is how things should be:
- FIRST: SELECTION
- SECOND: TRAINING
- THIRD: if successful training: TYPE RATING
- FOURTH: if succesful: TO THE LINE
SELECTION FIRST is the most important. Thus there is no need for the guys to fight each other with thousands of pounds as ammunition to get hired. But this silly fight is the delight of the greedy airlines.
Oh, How I wish that this system gets changed!!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cessnapete
While it all comes down to situational awareness (recognizing the unanticipated stall, and recognizing how much room is available to recover) - in the real world I'd concentrate on getting the damn machine flying again! 
Just one comment on the difference I found with CAA versus FAA Type Rating courses I have been through. The FAA minimum height loss rule during stall training concentrated more on height loss to pass the test, rather than teaching lowering the nose enough to unstall, and then concentrate on min height loss, as in the CAA sylabus.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAA 1500 hour rule
It is a good idea to increase the required experience level of airline pilots, but in Europe the 1500 hour rule is not realistic.
So my suggestion to EASA is to make a 1000 hour rule, of which 500 hours can be on gliders or touring motor gliders for pilots working in commercial personnel transport.
This will provide the industry with more experienced pilots with good handling skills and will also put a stop to the Oxford/CTC scams.
So my suggestion to EASA is to make a 1000 hour rule, of which 500 hours can be on gliders or touring motor gliders for pilots working in commercial personnel transport.
This will provide the industry with more experienced pilots with good handling skills and will also put a stop to the Oxford/CTC scams.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Devon
Age: 69
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have run and re-run the simulation of this incident. I have listened intently to the CVR and it's timings and matched the FDR with that of the CVR. It does seem to be incomprehensible that neithe rof the flight crew were aware of the airspeed bleed off when flap was initially lowered to 5*.
As we are all aware, ice was being discussed (as well as other things not pertinent to flying), and I do wonder as to whether the crew were simply looking out of their windows for a visual ice check? By either of the crew looking to their rear, an inadvertent backward stick pressure (slight) could have been applied (which does show in the FDR) which would have accentuated the stall position. For both pilots to turn their heads, refocus on their flight instruments, to gain spatial awareness, would, in my opinion have taken up those valuable seconds for the flight to be recovered from it's on-going stall situation. Again, from listening to the CVR with the flight display, the co-pilots reaction to their situation was very calm and I have a suspicion that she wasn't aware that the plane was *going down* untill about 4 seconds before impact. Alas, we will never know. Maybe a cockpit video recorder would have explained this incident. The more I run this incident, the more I'm in favour of believing that neither of them were actually looking at their instruments when the stall occured.
As we are all aware, ice was being discussed (as well as other things not pertinent to flying), and I do wonder as to whether the crew were simply looking out of their windows for a visual ice check? By either of the crew looking to their rear, an inadvertent backward stick pressure (slight) could have been applied (which does show in the FDR) which would have accentuated the stall position. For both pilots to turn their heads, refocus on their flight instruments, to gain spatial awareness, would, in my opinion have taken up those valuable seconds for the flight to be recovered from it's on-going stall situation. Again, from listening to the CVR with the flight display, the co-pilots reaction to their situation was very calm and I have a suspicion that she wasn't aware that the plane was *going down* untill about 4 seconds before impact. Alas, we will never know. Maybe a cockpit video recorder would have explained this incident. The more I run this incident, the more I'm in favour of believing that neither of them were actually looking at their instruments when the stall occured.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
old bloke,
the auto pilot was engaged thefore there would have been no backward pressure of the control column until AP disconect and the captains 'recovery'.
As the aircraft slowed down the autopilot would increase the pitch inorder to maintain the selected altitude.Not a pilot induced pitch up.
As per previous posts I believe the captain deliberately allowed the speed to decay in order to be at a stable approach speed.
The problem is the increased speed required for icing conditions did not enter his model of the universe. Hence he slowed down way too much.
As to the co pilot her model of the universe was equally as bad if not worse.
the auto pilot was engaged thefore there would have been no backward pressure of the control column until AP disconect and the captains 'recovery'.
As the aircraft slowed down the autopilot would increase the pitch inorder to maintain the selected altitude.Not a pilot induced pitch up.
As per previous posts I believe the captain deliberately allowed the speed to decay in order to be at a stable approach speed.
The problem is the increased speed required for icing conditions did not enter his model of the universe. Hence he slowed down way too much.
As to the co pilot her model of the universe was equally as bad if not worse.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Feriton
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PBS to air a FRONTLINE show on the Colgan Buffalo crash. Hope they get the facts straight -- something I haven't seen the news do in regard to flight 3407.
Business First of Buffalo: Flight 3407 crash probed in documentary
Business First of Buffalo: Flight 3407 crash probed in documentary
Trash du Blanc
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: KBHM
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Almost exactly one year after the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407 on approach to Buffalo International Airport, PBS will televise a documentary film that investigates the accident and what it might reflect about the current state of the airline industry.
The documentary, titled “Flying Cheap,” will be aired nationally at 9 p.m., Feb. 9. In Buffalo, the PBS affiliate is WNED-TV, Channel 17.
Fifty people died when a turboprop airliner fell to earth in Clarence Center during icy winter weather on the night of Feb. 12, 2009. The flight, marketed as a Continental Airlines connection, was bound from Newark.
“One year after the deadliest domestic airline accident in seven years, Frontline investigates the crash of (Flight 3407) in Buffalo, NY, and discovers a dramatically changed airline industry, where regional carriers now account for half the nation’s daily departures,” a news release from PBS said.
“The rise of the regionals and arrival of low-cost carriers have been a huge boon to consumers, and the industry insists that the skies are safe,” the release said. “But many insiders are worried that now, 30 years after airline deregulation, the aviation system is being stretched beyond its capacity to deliver service that is both cheap and safe.”
The documentary, titled “Flying Cheap,” will be aired nationally at 9 p.m., Feb. 9. In Buffalo, the PBS affiliate is WNED-TV, Channel 17.
Fifty people died when a turboprop airliner fell to earth in Clarence Center during icy winter weather on the night of Feb. 12, 2009. The flight, marketed as a Continental Airlines connection, was bound from Newark.
“One year after the deadliest domestic airline accident in seven years, Frontline investigates the crash of (Flight 3407) in Buffalo, NY, and discovers a dramatically changed airline industry, where regional carriers now account for half the nation’s daily departures,” a news release from PBS said.
“The rise of the regionals and arrival of low-cost carriers have been a huge boon to consumers, and the industry insists that the skies are safe,” the release said. “But many insiders are worried that now, 30 years after airline deregulation, the aviation system is being stretched beyond its capacity to deliver service that is both cheap and safe.”
Behold the free-market calculation of safety levels. Beautiful, ain't it.