Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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By the way, one could land gear up at TEB if the glide didn't permit gear extension.
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Bigdave's right (welcome, by the way). Those who are relying on the "map plot" have some very obvious bad data. According to witnesses and the video recordings posted here, the plane hit the water just past the "400 foot" mark. If you're going to use obviously garbage data, you'll need to make some adjustments for the "Harlem Thermal"
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Gear down and hydraulics..
There is a minimum speed for the RAT to give enough press for L/G operation. So how late can you actually lower it on final? What it is for the A320, I dont know.
Anyway, NOBODY can say how a person reacts or what/why they decided on exactly that, untill faced with the situation.
Training, experince, CRM and well rested will certainly help though..
Anyway, NOBODY can say how a person reacts or what/why they decided on exactly that, untill faced with the situation.
Training, experince, CRM and well rested will certainly help though..
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As a non professional pilot I find some of the recent posts by 'professional' pilots astounding for the following reasons;
1. The captain found himself in a situation, made a decision and STUCK to that decision.
2. Yes there may have been another option and yes it MAY have worked, but why introduce problems, turns, ATC, landing gear and drag, flying a crippled airliner over high terrain and densley populated areas, with pitch (flap and speedbrake) the only method of controlling airspeed, get it wrong and your short or long. The crew followed basic airmanship aviate, navigate, communicate.
3. The Hudson river is a long clear relatively unobstructed area (yes water) but with skill as was the case you have lots of time to judge the rate of descent, airspeed etc. to have a reasonable chance of pulling it off, without worrying about additional ground casualties.
4. It may not have been a factor in the cockpit thought process, but they turned the fuel to their advantage, instead of worrying about crashing on terra firma, the fuel assisted in keeping the aircraft afloat.
5. Lastly, some posters pointing to the fact that they were not heroes, and that they were merely doing their job. How much time is spent on SEPs in the sim practicing complete power failure with little height or airspeed?
My points may not be valid, but hopefully worthy of discussion!
1. The captain found himself in a situation, made a decision and STUCK to that decision.
2. Yes there may have been another option and yes it MAY have worked, but why introduce problems, turns, ATC, landing gear and drag, flying a crippled airliner over high terrain and densley populated areas, with pitch (flap and speedbrake) the only method of controlling airspeed, get it wrong and your short or long. The crew followed basic airmanship aviate, navigate, communicate.
3. The Hudson river is a long clear relatively unobstructed area (yes water) but with skill as was the case you have lots of time to judge the rate of descent, airspeed etc. to have a reasonable chance of pulling it off, without worrying about additional ground casualties.
4. It may not have been a factor in the cockpit thought process, but they turned the fuel to their advantage, instead of worrying about crashing on terra firma, the fuel assisted in keeping the aircraft afloat.
5. Lastly, some posters pointing to the fact that they were not heroes, and that they were merely doing their job. How much time is spent on SEPs in the sim practicing complete power failure with little height or airspeed?
My points may not be valid, but hopefully worthy of discussion!
Last edited by runawayedge; 10th Feb 2009 at 16:34.
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4. It may not have been a factor in the cockpit thought process, but they turned the fuel to their advantage, instead of worrying about crashing on terra firma, the fuel assisted in keeping the aircraft afloat.
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4. It may not have been a factor in the cockpit thought process, but they turned the fuel to their advantage, instead of worrying about crashing on terra firma, the fuel assisted in keeping the aircraft afloat.
But there's an interesting side issue - I don't hear any mention of fuel spillage, so the A320 tank integrity seems pretty robust.
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Thank you for pointing out the relative specific gravities, point 4 was incidental. Fuel yes is heavier than air, but is lighter than water. However, the main points I was making were 1-3 and the comment re training, funny at times how the main points are overlooked. Regarding the integrity of the tanks, I don't think it came into question as the wings remained intact!
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APU running and fuel weight / landing speed
One fact about this incident that I learned from the 60 Minutes report this past Sunday is that they got the APU running. Sully mentioned starting the APU as one of the first steps he took following loss of power. The RAT may have deployed, but they also had APU power so continued flight control was possible and gear extension would have been possible if they had tried for a dry landing.
As to the discussion of empty vs. full tanks one related factor is touchdown speed. Sully mentioned that he was trying to manage speed for the slowest possible touchdown without excessive pitch attitude. It is of course an academic discussion, but if the fuel load were less, the overall gross weight would have been less and he could have further reduced speed prior to touchdown. The aft cabin crew member reported a rather violent touchdown during which she was injured. Had the airplane been lighter weight, landed slower, and thus landed softer she might have been better able to prevent a passenger from opening one of the rear doors. Although she tried to close it that proved impossible with water pouring in. That door being open caused the airplane to sink much faster than it would have otherwise. Fortunately it stayed afloat long enough.
As to the discussion of empty vs. full tanks one related factor is touchdown speed. Sully mentioned that he was trying to manage speed for the slowest possible touchdown without excessive pitch attitude. It is of course an academic discussion, but if the fuel load were less, the overall gross weight would have been less and he could have further reduced speed prior to touchdown. The aft cabin crew member reported a rather violent touchdown during which she was injured. Had the airplane been lighter weight, landed slower, and thus landed softer she might have been better able to prevent a passenger from opening one of the rear doors. Although she tried to close it that proved impossible with water pouring in. That door being open caused the airplane to sink much faster than it would have otherwise. Fortunately it stayed afloat long enough.
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The salvage of flight 1549
Interesting Slide Show of the recovery of the US Airways Airbus . Nice closeups of the fuselage and other aircraft parts. The interior shots are surreal, looks like there are still a few items in the over head bins!
The salvage of flight 1549 | stephen mallon's industrial photography
cheers,
thx1169
The salvage of flight 1549 | stephen mallon's industrial photography
cheers,
thx1169
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Times (of London): A hero crashes
Nevertheless, halfway through the piece, I began to wonder if Sullenberger had said too much. “The first few nights [after the accident] were the worst,” he told us. “When the what-ifs started.”
This made me - and presumably everyone else sitting at home - think, what if what?
“Do you regret anything that you did?” asked Couric, also clearly intrigued.
“No,” Sullenberger replied. “Not now.”
Not now?
She didn't push him any farther. But now I can't stop thinking: what exactly does he think he didn't do right, given that he successfully landed an aircraft with no functioning engines on the Hudson River, with all 155 passengers surviving? Did he forget to activate some kind of built-in goose cannon? Did he throw down birdseed before taking off? Sadly, hundreds of lawyers across America will no doubt be thinking exactly the same thing.
This made me - and presumably everyone else sitting at home - think, what if what?
“Do you regret anything that you did?” asked Couric, also clearly intrigued.
“No,” Sullenberger replied. “Not now.”
Not now?
She didn't push him any farther. But now I can't stop thinking: what exactly does he think he didn't do right, given that he successfully landed an aircraft with no functioning engines on the Hudson River, with all 155 passengers surviving? Did he forget to activate some kind of built-in goose cannon? Did he throw down birdseed before taking off? Sadly, hundreds of lawyers across America will no doubt be thinking exactly the same thing.
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Nevertheless, halfway through the piece, I began to wonder if Sullenberger had said too much. “The first few nights [after the accident] were the worst,” he told us. “When the what-ifs started.”
This made me - and presumably everyone else sitting at home - think, what if what?
“Do you regret anything that you did?” asked Couric, also clearly intrigued.
“No,” Sullenberger replied. “Not now.”
Not now?
She didn't push him any farther. But now I can't stop thinking: what exactly does he think he didn't do right, given that he successfully landed an aircraft with no functioning engines on the Hudson River, with all 155 passengers surviving? Did he forget to activate some kind of built-in goose cannon? Did he throw down birdseed before taking off? Sadly, hundreds of lawyers across America will no doubt be thinking exactly the same thing.
This made me - and presumably everyone else sitting at home - think, what if what?
“Do you regret anything that you did?” asked Couric, also clearly intrigued.
“No,” Sullenberger replied. “Not now.”
Not now?
She didn't push him any farther. But now I can't stop thinking: what exactly does he think he didn't do right, given that he successfully landed an aircraft with no functioning engines on the Hudson River, with all 155 passengers surviving? Did he forget to activate some kind of built-in goose cannon? Did he throw down birdseed before taking off? Sadly, hundreds of lawyers across America will no doubt be thinking exactly the same thing.
That being said, I doubt I would have thought of it, or had the time to do it either. (20/20 hindsight)
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To continue the 20/20 hindsight comments...
I've been playing with the idea that maybe a touchdown closer to either shore would have been beneficial.
The thought behind this idea is that the most likely outcome of the ditching would have been that many passengers would have had to swim ashore. So it would pay off to minimize the swimming distance.
In the event the ferry boats were there almost instantly, which surely saved a great many lives.
On the other hand, aiming for a touchdown close to the riverbank creates a new set of significant risks. So I guess Sully's decision was the right one also in this matter.
I've been playing with the idea that maybe a touchdown closer to either shore would have been beneficial.
The thought behind this idea is that the most likely outcome of the ditching would have been that many passengers would have had to swim ashore. So it would pay off to minimize the swimming distance.
In the event the ferry boats were there almost instantly, which surely saved a great many lives.
On the other hand, aiming for a touchdown close to the riverbank creates a new set of significant risks. So I guess Sully's decision was the right one also in this matter.
I've been playing with the idea that maybe a touchdown closer to either shore would have been beneficial.
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the ditching was fine
I've piloted LGA-CLT often. And while turning over the GW Bridge looked south upon the river and thought what a nice place to land...if I had to.
The actual skill set in a water touchdown is practiced on every normal landing. Nose up, wings level...touchdown above stall while plane is fully controlable.
I would like to think that every ATP in the country would have had as good a result as flt 1549.
Ditching closer to the shore was a thought I am sure...but a ditching near the boats was vital. Sailors are trained for ''man overboard'' drills all the time.
I really think that all pilots should be warned that they must always look for a place to land...no matter how many engines their plane has. Instead of sitting there complaining about something...start the process of always looking for a place to land.
One that you are over right now, one within gliding distance for your altitude ahead of you along your course. In this way, there are at least 2 in mind. Airports of course are high on the list, open field, and contrary to one thought above, FREEWAYS. Every 50 miles on the interstate highway system in the USA, there is at least 5000' of straight road that might be useful for a landing.
When I drove along I80, just west of the GW bridge (after/west of the huge half circle) the area struck me as a perfect place to land...of course traffic would complicate that. So, dive down low with speed and hopefully drivers would see you and stop, giving you a fighting chance.
Fields directly below you might be reached by that old standby, the steep spiral into a traffic pattern.
So many of the skills that you learned , or should have learned, as a private pilot, or commercial pilot do come in handy...but you must practice them , IF ONLY IN YOUR MIND.
I also frequently flew out of DCA and knew that I might have to put my two engine jet right down into the Potomac river.
Now is the time for you to consider your options around the routes you fly. I hope it never happens, but if YOU, the PILOT isn't ready...who will be?
And so what if your simulator time isn't used for power off landings...use your mind...act like a pilot.
AND READ THE DAMN SECTION IN THE AIM about ditching!
The actual skill set in a water touchdown is practiced on every normal landing. Nose up, wings level...touchdown above stall while plane is fully controlable.
I would like to think that every ATP in the country would have had as good a result as flt 1549.
Ditching closer to the shore was a thought I am sure...but a ditching near the boats was vital. Sailors are trained for ''man overboard'' drills all the time.
I really think that all pilots should be warned that they must always look for a place to land...no matter how many engines their plane has. Instead of sitting there complaining about something...start the process of always looking for a place to land.
One that you are over right now, one within gliding distance for your altitude ahead of you along your course. In this way, there are at least 2 in mind. Airports of course are high on the list, open field, and contrary to one thought above, FREEWAYS. Every 50 miles on the interstate highway system in the USA, there is at least 5000' of straight road that might be useful for a landing.
When I drove along I80, just west of the GW bridge (after/west of the huge half circle) the area struck me as a perfect place to land...of course traffic would complicate that. So, dive down low with speed and hopefully drivers would see you and stop, giving you a fighting chance.
Fields directly below you might be reached by that old standby, the steep spiral into a traffic pattern.
So many of the skills that you learned , or should have learned, as a private pilot, or commercial pilot do come in handy...but you must practice them , IF ONLY IN YOUR MIND.
I also frequently flew out of DCA and knew that I might have to put my two engine jet right down into the Potomac river.
Now is the time for you to consider your options around the routes you fly. I hope it never happens, but if YOU, the PILOT isn't ready...who will be?
And so what if your simulator time isn't used for power off landings...use your mind...act like a pilot.
AND READ THE DAMN SECTION IN THE AIM about ditching!
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I would assume that if Capt. Sully was second-guessing himself, he was simply wondering if he COULD have made it to an airport and landed safely - the folks HERE certainly seem to be doing a lot of that.
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Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry
Home »*CBS*Evening*News
Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry
CBS Evening News: Flight 1549 Pilot Exclusively Tells Katie Couric His Fear About Future Pilots
Feb. 10, 2009 | by Katie Couric
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During Katie Couric's exclusive interview with Capt. Chesley Sullenberger, the hero of U.S. Airways Flight 1549 expressed concern over the airline industry's ability to attract experienced pilots. | Share/Embed
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Honoring Heroes (1:35)
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Sully's Personal Side (3:28)
•
Capt. Sullenberger's Moment (6:14)
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60 Minutes
Behind The Scenes
See some candid snapshots of Katie Couric's interview with Capt. Sullenberger and his crew.
Interactive
Miracle On The Hudson
All survive as commercial airliner makes emergency landing in Hudson River in New York.
Timeline:
Takes off from LaGuardia at 3:24pm
Pilot reports "double bird strike" at 3:28
The plane hits the water at 3:31
Stories:
A Routine Takeoff Turns Ugly
Saving 155 Souls In Minutes
An Emotional Reunion
Friends For Life
Six Secrets Of Surviving A Plane Crash
Interactive & Photos:
Flight 1549 Interacive
Behind The Scenes Photos
(CBS)*The amazing story of US Airways Flight 1549 might have frequent fliers thinking more about something often taken for granted: the experience of the pilot. The captain of Flight 1549 told CBS News anchor Katie Couric that he's concerned the industry will soon have trouble attracting experienced pilots. The reason? Money.
"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."
Sullenberger is uncharacteristically worried. He's worried that when it comes to the bank of experience for airline pilots, there may someday be a significant shortage.
"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.
There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.
But now: "The airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami. Pay cuts, loss of pensions, increased hours every day, days per week, days per month," Sullenberger said. "It's a heavy burden."
Last year alone, more than 6,000 commercial pilots were either furloughed or permanently laid off.
Couricsaid: "What effect do you think that is having on the industry itself and on the people's it's attracting?"
"I know some of our pilots, who have been laid off, have chosen not to return," Sullenberger said. "I can speak personally, for me and my family, that my decision to remain in this profession that I love has come at a cost to me and my family."
Sully says five years ago he and the rest of his fellow pilots at US Airways gave back almost $6.8 billion in pension, wages and other concessions, to keep the airline flying.
And while annual salaries can average anywhere from $37,000 for a first officer and well into the six figures for a captain, the shrinking workforce means pilots are often spread very thin.
As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.
"It started with deregulation in 1978. The onset of low-cost carriers really started to put stress on the system," said Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Then you couple that with 9/11, the spike in fuel costs, you've reallygot the prescription for a very challenged industry."
The majority of pilots hired today are civilians coming out of flight school, who began their career at smaller airlines. And few have the military background Sullenberger had flying for the Air Force.
In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.
"I think that there will always be people who want to do this," Sullenberger said. "It just may not be the same people who are doing it now."
"Are you concerned that that means if another situation like this one comes up in the future, you won't have as qualified a pilot flying the plane?" Couricasked.
"That just follows doesn't it?" Sullenberger said.
But despite the harsh economic realities, for the first time in jet aviation history, U.S. commercial carriers have gone two consecutive years without a crash fatality.
When contracted about Sullenberger's concerns, the Air Transport Association, which represents the principle U.S. carriers, had no comment.
The story of Flight 1549 has been a boost to the country. But it's also given those who work in the struggling industry a shot in the arm.
"Probably the most important words I've heard have been from my peers. That I have made them proud," Sullenberger said. "That they feel pride in themselves - a pride in their profession they hadn't felt for years. Sometimes decades. And they also tell me, especially ones at my airline who know me, that they were glad that I was the one flying that flight that day."
"Why does that make you feel so good?" Couricsaid.
"Their praise isn't given easily or readily," Sullenberger said.
But this pilot hopes his moment in the spotlight will remind the airlines - and those who fly - that attracting those with the right stuff may make all the difference.
© MMIX, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry
CBS Evening News: Flight 1549 Pilot Exclusively Tells Katie Couric His Fear About Future Pilots
Feb. 10, 2009 | by Katie Couric
E-Mail Story
Print Story
Sphere
Share
Text Size
*A**A**AVideos
Photos
Keeping Friendly Skies Safe
During Katie Couric's exclusive interview with Capt. Chesley Sullenberger, the hero of U.S. Airways Flight 1549 expressed concern over the airline industry's ability to attract experienced pilots. | Share/Embed
•
Honoring Heroes (1:35)
•
Sully's Personal Side (3:28)
•
Capt. Sullenberger's Moment (6:14)
» More Videos
Related
60 Minutes
Behind The Scenes
See some candid snapshots of Katie Couric's interview with Capt. Sullenberger and his crew.
Interactive
Miracle On The Hudson
All survive as commercial airliner makes emergency landing in Hudson River in New York.
Timeline:
Takes off from LaGuardia at 3:24pm
Pilot reports "double bird strike" at 3:28
The plane hits the water at 3:31
Stories:
A Routine Takeoff Turns Ugly
Saving 155 Souls In Minutes
An Emotional Reunion
Friends For Life
Six Secrets Of Surviving A Plane Crash
Interactive & Photos:
Flight 1549 Interacive
Behind The Scenes Photos
(CBS)*The amazing story of US Airways Flight 1549 might have frequent fliers thinking more about something often taken for granted: the experience of the pilot. The captain of Flight 1549 told CBS News anchor Katie Couric that he's concerned the industry will soon have trouble attracting experienced pilots. The reason? Money.
"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."
Sullenberger is uncharacteristically worried. He's worried that when it comes to the bank of experience for airline pilots, there may someday be a significant shortage.
"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.
There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.
But now: "The airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami. Pay cuts, loss of pensions, increased hours every day, days per week, days per month," Sullenberger said. "It's a heavy burden."
Last year alone, more than 6,000 commercial pilots were either furloughed or permanently laid off.
Couricsaid: "What effect do you think that is having on the industry itself and on the people's it's attracting?"
"I know some of our pilots, who have been laid off, have chosen not to return," Sullenberger said. "I can speak personally, for me and my family, that my decision to remain in this profession that I love has come at a cost to me and my family."
Sully says five years ago he and the rest of his fellow pilots at US Airways gave back almost $6.8 billion in pension, wages and other concessions, to keep the airline flying.
And while annual salaries can average anywhere from $37,000 for a first officer and well into the six figures for a captain, the shrinking workforce means pilots are often spread very thin.
As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.
"It started with deregulation in 1978. The onset of low-cost carriers really started to put stress on the system," said Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Then you couple that with 9/11, the spike in fuel costs, you've reallygot the prescription for a very challenged industry."
The majority of pilots hired today are civilians coming out of flight school, who began their career at smaller airlines. And few have the military background Sullenberger had flying for the Air Force.
In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.
"I think that there will always be people who want to do this," Sullenberger said. "It just may not be the same people who are doing it now."
"Are you concerned that that means if another situation like this one comes up in the future, you won't have as qualified a pilot flying the plane?" Couricasked.
"That just follows doesn't it?" Sullenberger said.
But despite the harsh economic realities, for the first time in jet aviation history, U.S. commercial carriers have gone two consecutive years without a crash fatality.
When contracted about Sullenberger's concerns, the Air Transport Association, which represents the principle U.S. carriers, had no comment.
The story of Flight 1549 has been a boost to the country. But it's also given those who work in the struggling industry a shot in the arm.
"Probably the most important words I've heard have been from my peers. That I have made them proud," Sullenberger said. "That they feel pride in themselves - a pride in their profession they hadn't felt for years. Sometimes decades. And they also tell me, especially ones at my airline who know me, that they were glad that I was the one flying that flight that day."
"Why does that make you feel so good?" Couricsaid.
"Their praise isn't given easily or readily," Sullenberger said.
But this pilot hopes his moment in the spotlight will remind the airlines - and those who fly - that attracting those with the right stuff may make all the difference.
© MMIX, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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Jeffrey Skiles speaks!
Jeffrey Skiles is scheduled tonight (Feb 10) on the U.S. public broadcasting TV program, Charlie Rose, an in-depth interview format program, definitely several cuts above the commercial networks. You can view the interview within the next day or so here:
Charlie Rose - Home
Charlie Rose - Home