Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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act700 said:
If that's what you think perhaps you'd better not fly in European airspace, no sense exposing yourself to that kind of bureaucracy.... 
The standard format of distress call is a tool to let you practice, in the sim or in other training environments, getting over the information that it would help ATC or SAR, or D&D, to know- the idea being that if it then happens for real you can make the call easily without having to think about it. If you don't have time, no one is going to make a big deal as long as the people who need to know (perhaps in order to clear a runway for you?) getsome kind of warning.
Incidentally, the one time I have made a genuine distress call, I used the standard format but got the reply "err, what?" from ATC!
For all involved in the 1549 deal, I'm glad it was NY, and not London, cause without Mayday, they probably would have gotten arrested and violated!
The standard format of distress call is a tool to let you practice, in the sim or in other training environments, getting over the information that it would help ATC or SAR, or D&D, to know- the idea being that if it then happens for real you can make the call easily without having to think about it. If you don't have time, no one is going to make a big deal as long as the people who need to know (perhaps in order to clear a runway for you?) getsome kind of warning.
Incidentally, the one time I have made a genuine distress call, I used the standard format but got the reply "err, what?" from ATC!
Amazing
With the release of the recording between Capt Sullenberger and the controller we can almost experience the amazing events on that cold, clear afternoon.
For people who *still* have to hark on about whether a Mayday was issued it unbelievably clear that this had no effect on the controllers complete attention to this pilot in trouble.
Just a moment 'Mayday freaks' if I maybe so brash as to call you - do you really want to waste any more time on this point? He told the controller ""Hit birds, we lost thrust in both engines, we're turning back towards La Guardia" What more needs to be said here? HIT BIRDS, WE LOST THRUST IN BOTH ENGINES ... sorry to shout it - but for crying out loud it's an aircraft in grave trouble, it is understood from his words and in the shortest of exchanges required. The professionalism of the Captain, from everything we know in this most public accident, is utturly undeniable. The 'Mayday or not' case IS closed. In fact it was never open....
Also, to bring up the point of not saying the flight number correctly - completley irrelevent in the situation at hand. He is less then 2 minutes out and with the same controller who knows excatly who and where he is. This was perhaps the only mistake we hear made by the Captian and shows he actually is a human being and not an immortal God some of us believed and maybe even hoped, he was. He is close though.
The controller is amazing in this. He has a dozen of more vessels to control when this emergency comes at him and yet he handles the situation superbly. The handling of this event is something we can all learn something from.
It was especially 'awesome' to hear the Capt. just say 'unable' - nothing else is said to the controller after this. He is now completley 200% focused on saving the lives of each and every person onboard and who knows how many on the ground as his crippled jet glides over NY toward the Hudson.
An amazing story.
For people who *still* have to hark on about whether a Mayday was issued it unbelievably clear that this had no effect on the controllers complete attention to this pilot in trouble.
Just a moment 'Mayday freaks' if I maybe so brash as to call you - do you really want to waste any more time on this point? He told the controller ""Hit birds, we lost thrust in both engines, we're turning back towards La Guardia" What more needs to be said here? HIT BIRDS, WE LOST THRUST IN BOTH ENGINES ... sorry to shout it - but for crying out loud it's an aircraft in grave trouble, it is understood from his words and in the shortest of exchanges required. The professionalism of the Captain, from everything we know in this most public accident, is utturly undeniable. The 'Mayday or not' case IS closed. In fact it was never open....
Also, to bring up the point of not saying the flight number correctly - completley irrelevent in the situation at hand. He is less then 2 minutes out and with the same controller who knows excatly who and where he is. This was perhaps the only mistake we hear made by the Captian and shows he actually is a human being and not an immortal God some of us believed and maybe even hoped, he was. He is close though.
The controller is amazing in this. He has a dozen of more vessels to control when this emergency comes at him and yet he handles the situation superbly. The handling of this event is something we can all learn something from.
It was especially 'awesome' to hear the Capt. just say 'unable' - nothing else is said to the controller after this. He is now completley 200% focused on saving the lives of each and every person onboard and who knows how many on the ground as his crippled jet glides over NY toward the Hudson.
An amazing story.
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This was perhaps the only mistake we hear made by the Captian and shows he actually is a human being and not an immortal God some of us believed and maybe even hoped, he was. He is close though.
Sounds like you're hard at work on that made-for-TV script.........
Last edited by fauxpaw; 6th Feb 2009 at 05:44.
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Hey, daelight,
I'd say I agree with you on most of what you said, except maybe the God like stuff. I'll leave that to Hollywood.
But I do have one question, about this:
"He is now completley 200% focused on saving the lives of each and every person onboard..."
I would venture to say that at that point he was 200% focused on the task at hand: surviving! Which conveniently helps everybody behind him. After the succesfull ditching, that's when he makes sure all are taken care of.
Not degrading anything he/they did. Just trying to be realistic.
I'd say I agree with you on most of what you said, except maybe the God like stuff. I'll leave that to Hollywood.
But I do have one question, about this:
"He is now completley 200% focused on saving the lives of each and every person onboard..."
I would venture to say that at that point he was 200% focused on the task at hand: surviving! Which conveniently helps everybody behind him. After the succesfull ditching, that's when he makes sure all are taken care of.
Not degrading anything he/they did. Just trying to be realistic.
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it s another few seconds you can use doing something else and another few seconds where the radio frequency is blocked for other possibly more pressing information
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COMPLETE CREW INTERVIEW(S) COMING UP THIS WEEKEND
The Associated Press: CBS to devote entire morning show to hero pilot
The Associated Press: CBS to devote entire morning show to hero pilot
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daelight Great Post
Here in Europe we spend too much time debating about the proper way to do things. In my opinion at times we are full of s..t.
Here in Europe we spend too much time debating about the proper way to do things. In my opinion at times we are full of s..t.
Last edited by Duck Rogers; 6th Feb 2009 at 13:23. Reason: Language
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Me thinks Eric Moody likes the sound of his own voice on Sky News just a bit too much.
Every time there is an aviation mishap / accident / tragedy he's the first to start rattling on - I realise he's probably on a retainer.
I wouldn't mind so much but most of the time he manages to very quickly start talking about his experience on the jumbo over Indonesia rather than the saliant points of the current topic at hand.
Eric have a little dignity ol' boy and just enjoy your retirement.
Every time there is an aviation mishap / accident / tragedy he's the first to start rattling on - I realise he's probably on a retainer.
I wouldn't mind so much but most of the time he manages to very quickly start talking about his experience on the jumbo over Indonesia rather than the saliant points of the current topic at hand.
Eric have a little dignity ol' boy and just enjoy your retirement.
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Well, whilst a "mayday" call is drilled into all of us from day one of taking a flying lesson, to nominate to all and sundry that an emergency is occurring, I don't really have a problem with someone not declaring an emergency in certain circumstances, due to time constraints, like this one for instance!
But, for some of the turkeys on this thread to state that one should never follow any procedures, under any circumstances, belies belief!
Amateur posters on a professional pilots forum really are a pain in the A*se!!
By the way, does anybody think the release of the CVR tapes to the World is an invasion of privacy?
I certainly do, and I suspect the crew might also!
But, for some of the turkeys on this thread to state that one should never follow any procedures, under any circumstances, belies belief!
Amateur posters on a professional pilots forum really are a pain in the A*se!!
By the way, does anybody think the release of the CVR tapes to the World is an invasion of privacy?
I certainly do, and I suspect the crew might also!
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Obie
Quite! In 30 something years and with a good share of unusual circumstances, I don`t recall anyone using "mayday" and only one "pan" call. If there was any doubt, one only had to say something like "roger, do you wish to declare an emergency?" This always resolved any doubt and gave justification for some unconventional actions. I can only think of one occasion (where I was a bystander) where insufficient information was given on the first call, quickly resolved by that phraseology.
In the case of the Hudson river episode. The pilot made an exemplary call...
1 What happened .....he`d hit birds
2 Consequences....he`s now flying a heavy glider
3 Intentions....trying to return.
I really don`t see how that call would have been improved by adherence to an "ideal" phraseology. However, I agree there are occasions when this might be a good thing to do.
Quite! In 30 something years and with a good share of unusual circumstances, I don`t recall anyone using "mayday" and only one "pan" call. If there was any doubt, one only had to say something like "roger, do you wish to declare an emergency?" This always resolved any doubt and gave justification for some unconventional actions. I can only think of one occasion (where I was a bystander) where insufficient information was given on the first call, quickly resolved by that phraseology.
In the case of the Hudson river episode. The pilot made an exemplary call...
1 What happened .....he`d hit birds
2 Consequences....he`s now flying a heavy glider
3 Intentions....trying to return.
I really don`t see how that call would have been improved by adherence to an "ideal" phraseology. However, I agree there are occasions when this might be a good thing to do.
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Hello,
I think that in the first part of the transmission they block each other out.
The controler gives a heading, followed by a beep and then the you can hear cactus 1549.
So it is possible that he did call a MAYDAY. This is consistent with previous reports from NTSB that a mayday was heard on the flightrecorder.
Talking from my own experience now. When you are in a emergency situation, one tents to forget to listen out on the frequency before making a call. I am not sure that it is the case now, but it is a possibility.
In my case, the first part of my transmission was blocked out by another aircraft. To be more accurate, I blocked out the other aircraft. At that time I didn't have any bits left to notice that the controler didn't read it back. I have learned from that, but I can't promise it will not happen again if I ever end up in the same situation.
I do not agree that a MAYDAY or PAN call is not important, because it is.
Specially in Europe procedures for ATC are based on those calls. A lot of things happen when such calls are being made. A lot of thing also happen when they are not made, but than the decision is made by somebody else and not on your flightdeck. And you can judge the best how bad your situation is.
Rgds
Martijn
I think that in the first part of the transmission they block each other out.
The controler gives a heading, followed by a beep and then the you can hear cactus 1549.
So it is possible that he did call a MAYDAY. This is consistent with previous reports from NTSB that a mayday was heard on the flightrecorder.
Talking from my own experience now. When you are in a emergency situation, one tents to forget to listen out on the frequency before making a call. I am not sure that it is the case now, but it is a possibility.
In my case, the first part of my transmission was blocked out by another aircraft. To be more accurate, I blocked out the other aircraft. At that time I didn't have any bits left to notice that the controler didn't read it back. I have learned from that, but I can't promise it will not happen again if I ever end up in the same situation.
I do not agree that a MAYDAY or PAN call is not important, because it is.
Specially in Europe procedures for ATC are based on those calls. A lot of things happen when such calls are being made. A lot of thing also happen when they are not made, but than the decision is made by somebody else and not on your flightdeck. And you can judge the best how bad your situation is.
Rgds
Martijn
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Neither system is perfect, we should respect one another’s ways.
I had an engine failure and forced landing in UK air space early in my career. I had very little time, and it wasn’t practical to complete the “Mayday” call. But it did the job. The UK controllers did a fine job in presenting my options, giving me the estimated surface wind at my location, then getting a helicopter to me to make sure I was OK.
To all those who say it’s all theory and no practical in the Eurozone, I use the example above to rest my case. And to those who say that in USA the operating procedures are ultra safe and close to perfect, consider the practice of clearing an aircraft to land before the one at the threshold has even begun its takeoff roll.
I have ATPLs from both sides of the Atlantic. The knowledge required for both is more or less the same. The difference is in the way they are examined. The FAA written is easy to pass, but a thorough oral exam could take hours, and will require you to know most of the subject matter areas you might find in the 14 JAA exams. The flight tests are similar too. The FAA and JAA ATPL flight test can be completed in the simulator and resembles the annual type rating check (LPC for Eurozoners).
I have full respect for the professionalism of all aircrew and ground staff on both sides of the Atlantic, and would expect us all to be able to exercise the good judgment shown by the people involved in the Hudson incident.
To all those who say it’s all theory and no practical in the Eurozone, I use the example above to rest my case. And to those who say that in USA the operating procedures are ultra safe and close to perfect, consider the practice of clearing an aircraft to land before the one at the threshold has even begun its takeoff roll.
I have ATPLs from both sides of the Atlantic. The knowledge required for both is more or less the same. The difference is in the way they are examined. The FAA written is easy to pass, but a thorough oral exam could take hours, and will require you to know most of the subject matter areas you might find in the 14 JAA exams. The flight tests are similar too. The FAA and JAA ATPL flight test can be completed in the simulator and resembles the annual type rating check (LPC for Eurozoners).
I have full respect for the professionalism of all aircrew and ground staff on both sides of the Atlantic, and would expect us all to be able to exercise the good judgment shown by the people involved in the Hudson incident.
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"Are you declaring an emergency?" the busy departure controller asked.
I hit the ball back over to his side of the net. "Not if you'll clear right back into the field," I replied.
I hit the ball back over to his side of the net. "Not if you'll clear right back into the field," I replied.
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Ok - next point...
Guys,
MAYDAY - one word. Time to say (at start of first comms with ATC), half a second. You all train to say it in Sim. Sully probably said it but understandably wasn't waiting for a gap in comms. Of course it helps clarify the situation. Of course 'lost both engines' gets the point across. Of course multi-lingual Europe has more need for clarity than US airspace. Europe is more 'beurocratic'? I'm learning nothing here! Can we find something else to talk about on this very interesting thread now please!
On a slightly different point: on a 319-100 last night on a foggy Munich slot, our APU just stopped. The pilot announced this was due to 'fog & ice'. Took 5 minutes to re-start while we sat in the dark. Is this normal? Obviously not a happy event should this duck align with the double engine failure mentioned here or the Capt Moody 747 incident...
(I only really mention this to distract from a boring comms lesson
)
SLF and usual lurker...
MAYDAY - one word. Time to say (at start of first comms with ATC), half a second. You all train to say it in Sim. Sully probably said it but understandably wasn't waiting for a gap in comms. Of course it helps clarify the situation. Of course 'lost both engines' gets the point across. Of course multi-lingual Europe has more need for clarity than US airspace. Europe is more 'beurocratic'? I'm learning nothing here! Can we find something else to talk about on this very interesting thread now please!
On a slightly different point: on a 319-100 last night on a foggy Munich slot, our APU just stopped. The pilot announced this was due to 'fog & ice'. Took 5 minutes to re-start while we sat in the dark. Is this normal? Obviously not a happy event should this duck align with the double engine failure mentioned here or the Capt Moody 747 incident...
(I only really mention this to distract from a boring comms lesson
)SLF and usual lurker...
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Why Some Airlines Haul Only Freight
Here's an interesting discussion thread about the ungrateful passengers:
throwingstardna: The Survivors Of US Airways Flight 1549 Make Me Hate People
These people need to be spanked!
ONTPax
throwingstardna: The Survivors Of US Airways Flight 1549 Make Me Hate People
These people need to be spanked!
ONTPax
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Tapes
does anybody think the release of the CVR tapes to the World is an invasion of privacy?
They haven't released the CVR tapes, these are the tower tapes. CVR transcripts are released after study. The tapes are rarely released beyond NTSB and at times law enforcement -- apparently the audio quality is difficult at times anyway.
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This 'did he say Mayday or not' is painful. The NTSB has already said that the word Mayday was transmitted. It's been pointed out that a conflicting VHF transmission took place between ATC and US Air. The Mayday call is on the CVR (hence the NTSB's statement) - but, as you'd expect, not on the Tower tapes. So that'll make everybody happy. 
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It's the reporter who needs spanked or shot!
Berretta wrote:
I am Fred Berretta and I am disappointed in the angle this reporter took. She called me and asked how I was doing, how I felt US Airways was treating us, to which I replied fantastically. She asked what the right gesture should be and I said I really did not know, maybe a permament upgrade, which I said jokingly as I really don't care. I am grateful we all survived and I thank God for that every day. The pilot and crew are heroes, along with a lot of other people, including many of the passengers. I think most of the passengers feel the same way I do. Just wanted to pass this along.
2/2/2009 6:35 PM EST
I am Fred Berretta and I am disappointed in the angle this reporter took. She called me and asked how I was doing, how I felt US Airways was treating us, to which I replied fantastically. She asked what the right gesture should be and I said I really did not know, maybe a permament upgrade, which I said jokingly as I really don't care. I am grateful we all survived and I thank God for that every day. The pilot and crew are heroes, along with a lot of other people, including many of the passengers. I think most of the passengers feel the same way I do. Just wanted to pass this along.
2/2/2009 6:35 PM EST