15 year allowed to fly, Turkish pilot fired
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money talks . . . . . . . . .
can any random person purchase a ticket and fly aboard your business jet?
I do medicals for several people who fly for outfits such as Net Jets, and I'm often absolutely horrified at the stories I hear of people who have more money than manners.
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tuskegeeAirman
>Pace, can any random person purchase a ticket and fly aboard your business jet? Forgive my ignorance as your answer will help me understand some of the points you make.
If you fly for a "select" set of persons, might this not be why you are free to mingle with them. i believe (subject to correction) that if any member of the public could access a seat on your aircraft then things may be a bit different.<
Theoretically anyone with the money could hire a business jet most are for company use by well established companies, celebrities and wealthy or "percieved " wealthy individuals.
Pace
>Pace, can any random person purchase a ticket and fly aboard your business jet? Forgive my ignorance as your answer will help me understand some of the points you make.
If you fly for a "select" set of persons, might this not be why you are free to mingle with them. i believe (subject to correction) that if any member of the public could access a seat on your aircraft then things may be a bit different.<
Theoretically anyone with the money could hire a business jet most are for company use by well established companies, celebrities and wealthy or "percieved " wealthy individuals.
Pace
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may this be an alternative solution?
AMEandPPL
The whole change in security has come about to stop someone gaining access to an aircraft and performing another 9/11 by using the aircraft as a mobile bomb.
Maybe you are in a position to answer an idea that came to me?
I know in the car industry there is research going on into smart technology to stop cars being stolen through the use of computers and chips.
Is it possible through that techology to code the pilots so that the aircraft identifies the pilots and only allows them to manipulate the controls?
What I am getting at here is finger print identification, Iris identification or even gene identification through saliva as well as camera/visual identification.
The pilots would be coded through an airline so that the jet would identify the crew of the day and only respond to them?
That surely would stop another 9/11 or at least further add a security block which would allow other security to be relaxed.
Pace
The whole change in security has come about to stop someone gaining access to an aircraft and performing another 9/11 by using the aircraft as a mobile bomb.
Maybe you are in a position to answer an idea that came to me?
I know in the car industry there is research going on into smart technology to stop cars being stolen through the use of computers and chips.
Is it possible through that techology to code the pilots so that the aircraft identifies the pilots and only allows them to manipulate the controls?
What I am getting at here is finger print identification, Iris identification or even gene identification through saliva as well as camera/visual identification.
The pilots would be coded through an airline so that the jet would identify the crew of the day and only respond to them?
That surely would stop another 9/11 or at least further add a security block which would allow other security to be relaxed.
Pace
Pace
Unless technology could continually identify the person at the controls throughout the flight, you suggestion wouldn't work.
Applying it to 9/11, the first, airline crew, would be identified and the controls unlocked for them - a hijacker subsequently sat in the Captains seat whilst, technologically, it was systems normal in flight.
If your technology detected a new Alien at the controls in flight - as happened in 9/11, or even an approved 15 yr old visitor - what would technology do ? Freeze the controls and shut down the engines ?
Unless technology could continually identify the person at the controls throughout the flight, you suggestion wouldn't work.
Applying it to 9/11, the first, airline crew, would be identified and the controls unlocked for them - a hijacker subsequently sat in the Captains seat whilst, technologically, it was systems normal in flight.
If your technology detected a new Alien at the controls in flight - as happened in 9/11, or even an approved 15 yr old visitor - what would technology do ? Freeze the controls and shut down the engines ?
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Do any of you pilots actually enjoy your job anymore?
I mean it sounds like a bit of a PITA having to put up with security screening, 15 year old wannabes wanting to visit the FD, the press blowing everything out of proportion in the industry, being stuck in the front office for hours on end, being in fear of your lives every day that maybe someone will try to compromise the aircraft, crew changes all the time, and worst of all, having to put up with us - how did someone put it earlier - great unwashed sandwich munching self loading freight...
15 years ago, I would have given my right testicle to fly an aircraft for a living. It doesn't seem to be so attractive a profession anymore reading what some of you guys write.
Rich
I mean it sounds like a bit of a PITA having to put up with security screening, 15 year old wannabes wanting to visit the FD, the press blowing everything out of proportion in the industry, being stuck in the front office for hours on end, being in fear of your lives every day that maybe someone will try to compromise the aircraft, crew changes all the time, and worst of all, having to put up with us - how did someone put it earlier - great unwashed sandwich munching self loading freight...
15 years ago, I would have given my right testicle to fly an aircraft for a living. It doesn't seem to be so attractive a profession anymore reading what some of you guys write.
Rich
Do any of you pilots actually enjoy your job anymore?
When I started with the airlines, my 'old' Captains reckoned that they had had the best time in aviation, Lancasters over the Target, then the big pistons, Connies, Strats etc and finally the jet age with the 707 - which had to be flown, and kicked into submission lest it turn around and bit you.
I reckon I had the best - no chance of being shot at, big pistons, and finally the original 747 which was only very basically automatic. I wouldn't know where to start with an FMS, FADEC etc. etc. on the present big jets.
I guess it's a generation thing. I would be very surprised if the present crews don't enjoy what they are doing.
Right now I have the best of all - a single seat microlight with an open cockpit, no ATC ( no tower on the airfield ) no flight planning, no security problems, no weather problems ( if it rains or blows I don't fly ) on a nice sunny evening I just drive on to the airfield, open the hangar, push out the aircraft - and go fly over the Beautiful Bay of Islands in the North of New Zealand. Eat your heart out !!!
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>If your technology detected a new Alien at the controls in flight - as happened in 9/11, or even an approved 15 yr old visitor - what would technology do ? Freeze the controls and shut down the engines ?<
NO
If There was a major deviation from the flight planned route in the FMS it would require a code to be entered to disengage the autopilot ie the autopilot would lock onto the existing route. In that mode the normal autopilot disengage would not operate! Who would fly it anyway if the crew were not in the front end 
?
Who knows in the future it may be quite possible for the aircraft to be controlled from the ground as in existing unmanned aircraft.
But frankly with the existing way anyone determined enough could gain access! All they would have to do is to wait for one of the crew to visit the toilets position themselves by the toilet as a waiting passeneger and push their way in as the Captain/First officer re entered the cockpit.
You either isolate the crew completely ie NO toilet access, No cabin crew access, No coaxing out of the cockpit with aircraft problems or passenger problems or the whole existing system is a public relations exercise with little practical anti terrorism purpose.
Pace
NO
If There was a major deviation from the flight planned route in the FMS it would require a code to be entered to disengage the autopilot ie the autopilot would lock onto the existing route. In that mode the normal autopilot disengage would not operate! Who would fly it anyway if the crew were not in the front end ? Who knows in the future it may be quite possible for the aircraft to be controlled from the ground as in existing unmanned aircraft.
But frankly with the existing way anyone determined enough could gain access! All they would have to do is to wait for one of the crew to visit the toilets position themselves by the toilet as a waiting passeneger and push their way in as the Captain/First officer re entered the cockpit.
You either isolate the crew completely ie NO toilet access, No cabin crew access, No coaxing out of the cockpit with aircraft problems or passenger problems or the whole existing system is a public relations exercise with little practical anti terrorism purpose.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Oct 2008 at 11:34.
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Mercury Dancer
Apologies for misunderstanding your direction of comment earlier, it seemed to me that you were saying any FD visitor was unfit from the perspective of proper control of the AC (which would have been the case pre 9/11). However, from your last comment it appears you were just saying that post 9/11 and SOP's having changed, that an FD visitor now would cause you concern then I agree.
As I said in my earlier post, if FD visits were re-instated even if just for children, it wouldn't take too long for someone with harmful intentions to exploit it.
As trains were mentioned earlier - does anyone know the current OP's of Trains & Ferries? I'm guessing these have changed as well for I remember as an 11 yr old travelling alone on B.Rail one day, being invited to complete my journey with the Train driver and briefely taking control of the train also (the Dead man's lever), also at 9 I had the fortune to be invited to the bridge of a ferry and had a go at steering that too. (That's if the OP's ever allowed this type of thing in the first place come to think of it). Combined with the aviation experiences I mentioned before, I was pretty lucky with childhood experiences.
Apologies for misunderstanding your direction of comment earlier, it seemed to me that you were saying any FD visitor was unfit from the perspective of proper control of the AC (which would have been the case pre 9/11). However, from your last comment it appears you were just saying that post 9/11 and SOP's having changed, that an FD visitor now would cause you concern then I agree.
As I said in my earlier post, if FD visits were re-instated even if just for children, it wouldn't take too long for someone with harmful intentions to exploit it.
As trains were mentioned earlier - does anyone know the current OP's of Trains & Ferries? I'm guessing these have changed as well for I remember as an 11 yr old travelling alone on B.Rail one day, being invited to complete my journey with the Train driver and briefely taking control of the train also (the Dead man's lever), also at 9 I had the fortune to be invited to the bridge of a ferry and had a go at steering that too. (That's if the OP's ever allowed this type of thing in the first place come to think of it). Combined with the aviation experiences I mentioned before, I was pretty lucky with childhood experiences.
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>As trains were mentioned earlier - does anyone know the current OP's <
i dont really think with trains any need would be required to actually take control of a train. You could hardly deviate and head to the nearest tower block.
But all it would take on the miles of intercity track is to blow up a section in front of a high speed train to derail the lot and cause no end of damage or to see the total lack of security on the packed london tubes to realise the potential danger and threat.
But we all know how impossible it would be to do anything to stop such an occurence so government target aviation. They have built an industry and thousands of jobs within the aviation industry through security and at the cost of the aviation industry.
This has been with the false presumption or excuse that Aviation= terrorism and Terrorism = aviation assisted by the press and media.
Pace
i dont really think with trains any need would be required to actually take control of a train. You could hardly deviate and head to the nearest tower block.
But all it would take on the miles of intercity track is to blow up a section in front of a high speed train to derail the lot and cause no end of damage or to see the total lack of security on the packed london tubes to realise the potential danger and threat.
But we all know how impossible it would be to do anything to stop such an occurence so government target aviation. They have built an industry and thousands of jobs within the aviation industry through security and at the cost of the aviation industry.
This has been with the false presumption or excuse that Aviation= terrorism and Terrorism = aviation assisted by the press and media.
Pace
Who would fly it anyway if the crew were not in the front end
The same people who flew the 9/11 guided missiles.
I accept the policy of the auto-pilot routeing only being able to be changed by someone with the right PiN - but I thought we were pilots, not computer programmers ? The mind boggles at the thought of errors such as I daily experience on my computer, and it would breed a whole new concept of hijackers, not only would they have to gain access to the flight deck, they would have to be computer 'hackers' too. Don't believe it couldn't happen.
Glad I only have a microlight to worry about, and NO airport security goons to pass. That's a real bonus !
The same people who flew the 9/11 guided missiles.
I accept the policy of the auto-pilot routeing only being able to be changed by someone with the right PiN - but I thought we were pilots, not computer programmers ? The mind boggles at the thought of errors such as I daily experience on my computer, and it would breed a whole new concept of hijackers, not only would they have to gain access to the flight deck, they would have to be computer 'hackers' too. Don't believe it couldn't happen.
Glad I only have a microlight to worry about, and NO airport security goons to pass. That's a real bonus !
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Mercurydancer - the cap does not fit so you had better put it back on yourself, not arrogant and judgemental. Hmmm
Your inappropriate comments had NO bearing on this discussion, so don't try to justify them with your "expert credentials".
Your inappropriate comments had NO bearing on this discussion, so don't try to justify them with your "expert credentials".
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Exsp33db1rd
>>I accept the policy of the auto-pilot routeing only being able to be changed by someone with the right PiN - but I thought we were pilots, not computer programmers ? The mind boggles at the thought of errors such as I daily experience on my computer, and it would breed a whole new concept of hijackers, not only would they have to gain access to the flight deck, they would have to be computer 'hackers' too. Don't believe it couldn't happen.
Glad I only have a microlight to worry about, and NO airport security goons to pass. That's a real bonus !<<
Just after 9/11 I was flying then as a first officer on a citation 560 out of London. The Government in their wisdom placed a 20 mile restriction zone around the city. as we routed up alongside that restriction zone passing 20,000 feet in the climb we calculated that it would take us 2.5 minutes in a dive to hit parliament had we been so inclined! ie before anyone could blink an eye. Totally an impracticle move By the government for public digestion only.
When pilots here talk of the restrictions and presumed safety with the no access policy today i will paste my comments from above
>You either isolate the crew completely ie NO toilet access, No cabin crew access, No coaxing out of the cockpit with aircraft problems or passenger problems or the whole existing system is a public relations exercise with little practical anti terrorism purpose<
Any potential terrorist could gain access Today so I have to presume that this present system is itself more about public digestion of safety rather than any reality.
Good for you with the Microlight I still get a buzz with Biz jet ferries but can still see the appeal of what you fly today.
Pace
>>I accept the policy of the auto-pilot routeing only being able to be changed by someone with the right PiN - but I thought we were pilots, not computer programmers ? The mind boggles at the thought of errors such as I daily experience on my computer, and it would breed a whole new concept of hijackers, not only would they have to gain access to the flight deck, they would have to be computer 'hackers' too. Don't believe it couldn't happen.
Glad I only have a microlight to worry about, and NO airport security goons to pass. That's a real bonus !<<
Just after 9/11 I was flying then as a first officer on a citation 560 out of London. The Government in their wisdom placed a 20 mile restriction zone around the city. as we routed up alongside that restriction zone passing 20,000 feet in the climb we calculated that it would take us 2.5 minutes in a dive to hit parliament had we been so inclined! ie before anyone could blink an eye. Totally an impracticle move By the government for public digestion only.
When pilots here talk of the restrictions and presumed safety with the no access policy today i will paste my comments from above
>You either isolate the crew completely ie NO toilet access, No cabin crew access, No coaxing out of the cockpit with aircraft problems or passenger problems or the whole existing system is a public relations exercise with little practical anti terrorism purpose<
Any potential terrorist could gain access Today so I have to presume that this present system is itself more about public digestion of safety rather than any reality.
Good for you with the Microlight
I still get a buzz with Biz jet ferries but can still see the appeal of what you fly today.Pace
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In my org. tho the FD is off limits steps are taken to mitigate the risks while crews visit the washroom. Something as simple as no pax in the vicinity of said washroom while the crew went in/out works quite well. To my knowledge none of our passengers ever objected when politely requested to defer to the cockpit crew. If a pax decides to hang around or move toward the fwd area then the door remains closed/locked/bolted til they are clear. If a problem arises in cruise that is serious enough for one of us to go back and have a look then the same rules apply. If we are "detained"
while back there? The other guy/gal upfront can still land somewhere close.
We seem to be focussed on 9/11 for the most part here. Tho that was perhaps the watershed moment we need to look beyond that and accept that bad things can happen when unauthorised persons enter the FD. Can anyone recall the Nigerian (i believe) Airways B767 that was hijacked and ordered to fly well beyond the endurance of the aircraft? In that particular situation the crew was taken out of the decision making loop with disastrous results. By all indications the hijackers had no desire to destroy the aircraft or any property (though they claimed to have had a bomb), they wanted to fly to somewhere they perceived as safe. Had they been kept off the FD at all cost the crew would have had the opportunity to land somewhere safe and refuel/negotiate or whatever was deemed appropriate to secure the lives of those aboard.
while back there? The other guy/gal upfront can still land somewhere close.We seem to be focussed on 9/11 for the most part here. Tho that was perhaps the watershed moment we need to look beyond that and accept that bad things can happen when unauthorised persons enter the FD. Can anyone recall the Nigerian (i believe) Airways B767 that was hijacked and ordered to fly well beyond the endurance of the aircraft? In that particular situation the crew was taken out of the decision making loop with disastrous results. By all indications the hijackers had no desire to destroy the aircraft or any property (though they claimed to have had a bomb), they wanted to fly to somewhere they perceived as safe. Had they been kept off the FD at all cost the crew would have had the opportunity to land somewhere safe and refuel/negotiate or whatever was deemed appropriate to secure the lives of those aboard.
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Ethiopian Airlines off the Comores.
I guess explaining to the goons that when fmc says "insufficient fuel" (if indeed they reprogrammed it for their "guests" desired new destination ) it means it.
I guess explaining to the goons that when fmc says "insufficient fuel" (if indeed they reprogrammed it for their "guests" desired new destination ) it means it.
SQUEEL LIKE THE PROVERBIAL STUCK PIG 
What was supposed to be a pleasure flight turned into something else, so I turned the plane back to Toronto Island and landed
(OK, I´ll shut up now. Actually I´m glad I found out - before it was too late
)
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Iceman... I can live with the arrogance and judgemental bit... youre wrong but I can live with it... but NO relevance... lets take this one step at a time... I did say in my first post on this subject that the drunk pilot was an extreme example, are you saying now that it has NO relevance? None at all??? That is plainly ridiculous.
hot stepper... SOP for trains is very similar to FD... ie no unauthorised staff in the driver's area. The area is usually locked and by most of the companies I have seen, even local trains, the cabin door is locked.
hot stepper... SOP for trains is very similar to FD... ie no unauthorised staff in the driver's area. The area is usually locked and by most of the companies I have seen, even local trains, the cabin door is locked.
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pace
I'm not obsessed with safety! however I do take your point about the tube. It is and remains a terrorist target but thats far from my realm of work. Interestingly enough the derailment of a high speed train as terrorist action was seriously considered in the Potter's Bar investigation. It remains a remote possibility but still possible. A huge body count as a result of a train sabotage is much easier than an air hijack but not as spectacular.
I'm not obsessed with safety! however I do take your point about the tube. It is and remains a terrorist target but thats far from my realm of work. Interestingly enough the derailment of a high speed train as terrorist action was seriously considered in the Potter's Bar investigation. It remains a remote possibility but still possible. A huge body count as a result of a train sabotage is much easier than an air hijack but not as spectacular.
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Just in the last month ETA placed some explosive devices on TGV (high speed train ) lines in France, in appreciation of the enhanced cooperation Sarkozy offers to Spain. There were warnings ( this time
) but it is obviously a ridiculously easy target as it would be impossible to police the thousands of km of lines. Fortunately, in the past when these types of trains have gone bush ,they have, by virtue of their design ,tended to stay upright thereby avoiding the level of carnage when older trains fell off in all directions.
Along with the Metro in London/ Paris or wherever, the situation I always felt vulnerable in was when using the channel-tunnel, another easy enough target. You would like to think with all these other alternatives avail they would lay off aircraft, but nothing quite makes the headlines as much as a pile of smouldering aluminium and a big hole in the ground even if they can't now place the hole where they want it with the ease of pre 9/11.
I too lived the "open cockpit door" epoque, and many a boring long charter was enhanced by charming company sourced from the cabin. As a previous poster said, great thing for a young lad to have a yummy-mummy if he wants to see the cockpit. Alas, no more milfs for us now, and I suppose thinking back, we did leave ourself vulnerable to any nut-case that asked to come in. A few times we have had visitors who were a sandwich short of a picnic, and afterwards discussed that we had been quite happy to let that one go and let another more normal one in, but I don't think anyone in their darkest nightmares could have come up with the box-cutter followed by re-routing to the 35th floor scenario.
Sad these innocent times are long gone, but they are, and like so many other things in life that suck, we just have to live with it and cherish the memories.
) but it is obviously a ridiculously easy target as it would be impossible to police the thousands of km of lines. Fortunately, in the past when these types of trains have gone bush ,they have, by virtue of their design ,tended to stay upright thereby avoiding the level of carnage when older trains fell off in all directions.Along with the Metro in London/ Paris or wherever, the situation I always felt vulnerable in was when using the channel-tunnel, another easy enough target. You would like to think with all these other alternatives avail they would lay off aircraft, but nothing quite makes the headlines as much as a pile of smouldering aluminium and a big hole in the ground even if they can't now place the hole where they want it with the ease of pre 9/11.
I too lived the "open cockpit door" epoque, and many a boring long charter was enhanced by charming company sourced from the cabin. As a previous poster said, great thing for a young lad to have a yummy-mummy if he wants to see the cockpit. Alas, no more milfs for us now, and I suppose thinking back, we did leave ourself vulnerable to any nut-case that asked to come in. A few times we have had visitors who were a sandwich short of a picnic, and afterwards discussed that we had been quite happy to let that one go and let another more normal one in, but I don't think anyone in their darkest nightmares could have come up with the box-cutter followed by re-routing to the 35th floor scenario.
Sad these innocent times are long gone, but they are, and like so many other things in life that suck, we just have to live with it and cherish the memories.
Pace
Thank you, appreciate the comments and I agree that total isolation in a hermetically sealed cockpit is the only answer, and then accepting that you will not be able to divert due to a perfectly innocent passenger medical problem, because if the cabin crew can talk to you, you will hear a screaming stewardess with a knife up her knickers trying to persuade you to accede to the hijackers demands. You'd need a galley tho' - for the 14 hour night flights.
Which is why I get very upset at the present security nonsense, which is achieving nothing more than preventing the odd screwball who wants to visit his grandma in Cuba, the real bad guys will achieve what they want, when they want to, and are just laughing at us.
Aus. has just introduced full body X-ray scanners - to public uproar. and it has been admitted that it will not show nitro-glycerine ( or whatever ! ) in a condom hidden in a body cavity. So just what is the point - porno pictures for the security goons ? Don't start me, I become irrational.
Sun shining, w/v 2 gusting 3, 1/8 Sc. Vis. 50 nm+ - time to fly the microlight down to an airfield 30 nm. away for lunch !! ( will take my GPS tho' - you canna be too careful )
P.s. Microlight ? ALPI Pioneer-300, V.P. prop. retractable gear, 130 kts cruise, 2 p.o.b. for 4 hours plus baggage - tell that to a Cessna 152 ! Still a microlight in NZ tho'
Thank you, appreciate the comments and I agree that total isolation in a hermetically sealed cockpit is the only answer, and then accepting that you will not be able to divert due to a perfectly innocent passenger medical problem, because if the cabin crew can talk to you, you will hear a screaming stewardess with a knife up her knickers trying to persuade you to accede to the hijackers demands. You'd need a galley tho' - for the 14 hour night flights.
Which is why I get very upset at the present security nonsense, which is achieving nothing more than preventing the odd screwball who wants to visit his grandma in Cuba, the real bad guys will achieve what they want, when they want to, and are just laughing at us.
Aus. has just introduced full body X-ray scanners - to public uproar. and it has been admitted that it will not show nitro-glycerine ( or whatever ! ) in a condom hidden in a body cavity. So just what is the point - porno pictures for the security goons ? Don't start me, I become irrational.
Sun shining, w/v 2 gusting 3, 1/8 Sc. Vis. 50 nm+ - time to fly the microlight down to an airfield 30 nm. away for lunch !! ( will take my GPS tho' - you canna be too careful
)P.s. Microlight ? ALPI Pioneer-300, V.P. prop. retractable gear, 130 kts cruise, 2 p.o.b. for 4 hours plus baggage - tell that to a Cessna 152 ! Still a microlight in NZ tho'